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Warning: Farmers are EVIL?

Vegetarians call for boycott of Farm Aid concert

The Vegetarians International Voice for Animals (Viva!) pressure group wants bands and fans to boycott Farm Aid, a charity concert organised by Michael Eavis, held in aid of farmers hit by foot-and-mouth.

Campaigner Becky Smith said she had written to the bands Coldplay, Toploader and Reef, who have already agreed to play the gig at the Millennium Stadium in Cardiff on October 27, asking them not to appear, and saying that the farmers had "..brought their problems on themselves."

Ms Smith said the organisation objected to compensation payouts given to disease-hit farmers, saying that she believed there were more worthy causes.

"We're doing it because we think that farmers have brought foot-and-mouth on themselves with the overcrowded condition of factory farms and the vast distances which animals are made to travel from farm to market and then to slaughter."

She added: "This is NOT a charitable cause"

She confirmed that Viva! was in the process of writing to other bands who had agreed to play and also to the acts who declined to perform, including U2 and Robbie Williams in a bid for their support as well.

Dairy farmer Michael Eavis previously stated: "Farmers have got a bad press. People think they all get huge subsidies and ride round in four-wheel-drive vehicles, but I know many farmers who can't even afford a car,"

Viva! intend to protest outside the concert on October 27.

Warning: Farmers are EVIL?

Viva! should lighten up a tad... Farming is a job just like anything else, and if people can't afford to take care of their families or support their farms then why not have a benefit gig for them?

Viva should drop their bleating and just let people get on with trying to make ends meet.

Re: Warning: Farmers are EVIL?

Hitler was a vegetarian.

ollie.

Re: Warning: Farmers are EVIL?

Without wanting to turn DiS into a full on polit-fest (that could be fun, no?), I think you've both missed the point by about the size of three continents. Yes, there are poor farmers, but they're poor precisely because larger commercial farmers (the one's likely to be benefitting from both government compensation and this gig) monopolise subsidies and land. The same grouping have consistently implemented cost cutting farming methods to the detriment of health standards and the welfare of livestock, largely as a means of appeasing the similarly unscrupulous supermarket chains. That's not to say all farmers are irresponsible - it's just that the less scrupulous ones always seem to be at the recieving end of cash when great swathes of poverty stricken urban neighbourhoods are left to fester. And as for the 'hitler was a vegetarian' comment...is DiS a forum for intelligent debate or offensive banality? (Oh, and I'm a meat eater by the way.)

Re: Warning: Farmers are EVIL?

missed the point? I haven't attempted to make a point

and you can't compare urban slums to 'the country' as they're different in every socio-economic fashion, plus there happen to be housing areas, often of low economic class in the country as wel as the city

and I'd rather put in one line of something that could be found offensivly banal, rather than one paragraph that will be found as verbose self important tedium

as for political, pressure groups are stupid. and name me one band who aren't political

as for vegetarians, if all farmers are punished for having even looking at a cow, who's going to grow all the sprouts and lentils eh?

a pressure group does more than make it's views publicly accessible, it tries to force the public to accept them, hence the 'pressure' element., hence the Hitler comment

ollie.

Re: Warning: Farmers are EVIL?

A couple of important points that appear to have been missed:

Re subsidies: When it comes to revenue from taxes, 5 times as much leaves London as enters - yet who do farmers vent their collective spleen at when things go wrong for them? Yes, the so-called 'metropolitan elite' of London! The Countryside Alliance had a damn cheek marching in the capital in protest, when this is the origin of a large percentage of farming subsidies; it's not as if London doesn't have it's own social and infrastructural problems...and while we're on the subject, did anyone else notice that the part the farming lobby played in the anti-democratic fuel protests last year, despite the fact that their fuel is tax-exempt?


Re use of land: As Magnus Pike (among others in the scientific community) has pointed out, farming land is up to 10 times as efficient when used for growing crops, as opposed to grazing livestock.


Oh, and by the way - I am a vegetarian, but I would never dictate to people what they should or shouldn't eat; hope all you carnivores feel the same way...

Re: Warning: Farmers are EVIL?

Personally I'm an omnivore as are most people who aren't vegetarian/ vegan. We eat vegetubbles too.
But there we go.
Rachelle

Re: Warning: Farmers are EVIL?

oooh, nice use of bold and italics there

London makes a vast amount of money from financial and international markets, many of which trade on invisible products, insurance and banking etc, ao one of the worlds leading finacial cities it can afford to support the rest of the country, that's what it's there for

the reason that teh countryside alliance had the cheek, as you put it, to even think of entering your city, was that they realised, in the same way that small bands do *this is a music site after all* that to be heard, to get noticed you have to be in London, it's where the people are who really change things

the farmers joining with teh fuel protesters was a bid for greater coverage of both issues, the papers may have found the need to attempt to undermine farmer protesting about fuel prices (and teh tax free stuff is only to be used for work, when they drive into town to go shopping they have to use 'real' petrol, just like everyone else)

the countyrside alliance, by its very nature, is a mixture of intrests and feelings, adding teh fuel protestors was no great leap of politics, especialy as fuel and driving is a greater part of most country lives than those in the city (greater distances to shopping/recreation areas etc)

and the scientific community can kiss my arse, basicly, these are the same people who at one time declared non-white races to be inferior, OP chemicals to be great, and the advent of high explosivs to be the end of all wars, lets not put all our trust in the men with beards and glasses just yet

I am neither a vegetarian, nor am i a carnivore. To limit myself to one would be shortsighted and stupid, i am, as I am able to be, an omnivore.

ollie.

Re: Warning: Farmers are EVIL?

At last, someone with an ounce of sense. All informed, valid points, and not one mention of a sensitive historical figure in a callous, insensitive way. Listen and learn Ollie.

Re: Warning: Farmers are EVIL?

When, exactly, was I comparing urban slums to the countryside from a socio-political perspective? Of course they're different. I was merely suggesting that the money paid out to commercial farmers, often unneccessarily, could be put to better use in alleviating the poverty of underprivelaged urban areas.

To equate a pressure group with Hitler is not only historically inaccurate (Hitler didn't like them much either), but also grossly offensive. I suggest you're a little bit careful in the future about throwing around the names of historical figures without a thought for their political sensitivity.

And as for the following : "name me one band that aren't political." "if all farmers are punished for having even looked at a cow, who's going to grow all the sprouts and lentils eh?"......did I suggest that farmers shouldn't slaughter animals for meat? And where does the politics of bands come into my original argument?

If nothing else, this debate has exploded the myth that people who love alternative music are bright enough to see through the politics of the Right. I kinda hoped it was true.

Re: Warning: Farmers are EVIL?

well I'm glad that you no longer subscribe to such a rampant generalisation that people who like bands other than the Backstreet Boys are gentlemen and scholars

now, you didn't suggest word for word many things, neither did i, if i were to address every sentance that you wrote, it would get very boring and petty, the idea was to spread, prehaps inflamatory, comments on the situation so that others could come to their own decisions on teh matter

and as much as you might like it, I'm not going to erase history just to make things seem a little nicer.

tell me that pressure groups all love each other, tell me that they don't all want to be the one true voice capturing our attention, tell me that mentioning a historicaly significant name hasn't produced further debate

I'm not going to claim you can't see through the politics of the left, as i doubt most people even care about a general political concept thought up centuries ago, it's all about 'them' getting more money and hurting poor animals isn't it?

I'm not here to give you your answers, you're not here to gime me mine.

ollie.

Re: Warning: Farmers are EVIL?

I once had a bet that i could relate and famous person or band to Hitler in a few steps

I won, of course

why? because, like a vegetarian, like a punk, like me or you, he was a person, under all the labels and assumptions, he was basicly the same being as everone else, putting someone or something, good or bad, beyond discussion is invalid, and shortsighted.

the 'insensitive, callous' way that i addressed this matter was needed, the argument stems for people thinking, or at least spreading generalisations and assumptions to others, in this instance that all farmers are money grabbing cow killers

a pressure group puts it's own views forward, they don't forward a balanced argument, that's not their job, they invent a universal stereotyped enemy all rally support against it, tell me where my comparison is off?

i stand by every word I've ever said, the day i let someone else dictate my opinions is that day i shouldn't have an opinion

ollie.

Re: Warning: Farmers are EVIL?

"London...it can afford to support the rest of the country, that's what it's there for." No - London exists for the benefit of those of us who live and work here - anything else is a symptom of either:

(a) a desire to share the fruit of our labours with the rest of the country;


(b) the government/tax system bleeding the most productive part of the country dry in favour of net consumers (i.e. parasites).


And let's face it - it's pretty much the latter!

"the farmers joining with teh (sic) fuel protesters was a bid for greater coverage of both issues."

Which issues, precisely? Rural poverty? Fox/stag hunting? The defeat of the Conservative party at the 1997 General Election? I leave people reading this BB to draw their own conclusions on this topic...


BTW/FYI, the most of the really healthy people I know are vegetarians, so the assertion that to be vegetarian would be "shortsighted and stupid" hardly hold water, does it?


Re: Warning: Farmers are EVIL?

and there i was, hoping you weren't in London, oh dear, goodbye valid arguments, hello partisan sprout-spitting city-boy

not that I'm bringing those charges you understand "I leave people reading this BB to draw their own conclusions on this topic..."

as was my idea with the fuel/farmer comment, parasetic cider drinking country boys that they are, eh?

and as for at one turn rejoicing at the Concervative defeat in '97, then at the next claiming that taxes/fruits of labours are to be shared only when desired... are you sure that the right wing party was defeated in '97?

and if we're geting petty, most of teh vegetarians i know are shortsighted and stupid. does that mean that all the people you know aren't healthy? that's not what I'm claiming

see you at the secession of London referendum

ollie.

Re: Warning: Farmers are EVIL?

I wasn't attempting to be partisan, I was merely pointing out that Londoners are under no obligation to bail out the rest of the country. We're expected to bear the brunt of umpteen social problems (just look at how people in rural/small town react communities react when told they're playing host to asylum seekers, for example - London society has been built on successive waves of immigration), yet just try arguing that we should spend cash raised in London on London and hear the wails of protests from the shires! And just explain to me why exactly Londoners (and other urban dwellers) should fork out for an economic situation that is largely the consequence of collusion between the powerful farming lobby and the previous party of government to deceive the general public? It's about time that the rural wealthy put their hands in their pockets for a change (and not to donate to the BNP, who were recruiting in the countryside during the fuel protests), instead of being net recipients of a skewed and corrupt system of subsidies.

As for secession from the rest of England - great idea! It's about time the rest of the country had to work for a living...

Re: Warning: Farmers are EVIL?

It's not a case of putting something beyond discussion, it's a case of not invoking the name of someone associated with such hate and prejudice over an issue that simply doesn't warrant it. Let me put it in simple terms for you :

Hitler got his way through exterminating massive numbers of people. Pressure groups hold rallies, gather petitions, and exercise their genuine democratic rights.

That's why your comparison was callous.

Re: Warning: Farmers are EVIL?

Absolutely. What Ollie fails to recognise is that rural poverty exists largely as a results of the monopoly on land and grants held by the richer farmers. Many smaller farmers, particularly those unwilling to ruin the land to suit supermarket demands, are being sidelined by the richer farmers and the rural lobby in general, who are behind the Countryside Alliance. It's worth noting the involvement of the Far Right in the Alliance too...says something about it's political make-up.

Re: Warning: Farmers are EVIL?

Hitler got into power via democratic means, *then* started exterminating massive numbers of peoples

trying to take away the right to eat a food is the same as taking away teh right to life, it is a right, a choice to be made personaly, that is why it's teh same thing

I don't find being called callous a bad thing, should i?

Re: Warning: Farmers are EVIL?

It sounds to me like you don't accept that people hold particular political opinions and like to fight for them. Well, they do, and it's a cornerstone of democracy. Deal with it. If you'd made your so-called "inflammatory" comments with genuine reason, then that would be fine, and no doubt stimulating. Just a shame it had no purpose other than to aggravate.

And no, I didn't think that all non-pop lovers were "gentlemen and scholars" - I just hoped that people writing for this zine might be able to see through the largely Right dominated political environment our generation has been brought up in. Apparantly not.

Re: Warning: Farmers are EVIL?

For the last time, I did not say that people shouldn't be able to choose what they eat. I'm a meat eater myself!

I would, however, take issue with the idea that promoting vegetarianism is somehow on a level with the holocaust - that, my friend, is as ignorant as it is offensive and doesn't deserve any further response.

Re: Warning: Farmers are EVIL?

The Far Right/BNP recrute where and whenever they can, mostly in the poorer/working class areas, so they would naturaly head to a rally/organisation suposedly campaigning for economic relief

as for smaller farmers being sidelined by multinational/big buisness, this is the main point that the Viva! report fails to mention, they paint all of the farming community as criminals and parasites, for a pressure group, as for a racist political party, there is only black and white

and someone else please deal with the London is great stuff, I really can't be bothered. the idea of Country is bad enough, never mind City State

and you really don't have to keep invoking my name, this isn't a personal attack.

ollie.

Re: Warning: Farmers are EVIL?

Don't think i did say you were forcing people to do anything, nor did i say that eating a carrot is the same as killing a ethnic/religion based group

little steps, that's all they are

and at no point did i start a personal insult angle to this, any comments i've made have been generalisations at worst, challanges at best

further comment is always needed, wars begin when people stop talking

ollie.

Re: Warning: Farmers are EVIL?

You're right about the BNP, but I would hardly describe the Countryside Alliance as working class...it's predominantly Tory, predominantly rich. The far-right see them as a good opportunity because of the intense feeling generated by the dispersal of asylum seekers into the countryside. At a recent Alliance rally, a member gave a speech condemning our asylum policy as "too soft" to a cheer from the assembled crowd. That just about sums up their attitudes I think, and why the BNP have managed to infiltrate so effectively.

I was invoking your name because you were the one expressing views I didn't agree with. As is fairly normal when debating with someone, no?

Re: Warning: Farmers are EVIL?

Here's what you said : trying to take away the right to eat a food is the same as taking away teh right to life.

That's what I was disagreeing with.

Re: Warning: Farmers are EVIL?

Whilst I agree with your point about Viva! stereotyping farmers, just what do you imagine Farm Aid is going to achieve (if indeed you agree with it)? In common with most charities, it's more than likely that it will fail to address the real issues behind rural poverty, with the result that the situation will be no better, perhaps worse in the long run - and at the further expense of people who were not responsible for the situation in the first place.

As for the 'independent London' scenario: the day it happens, the rest of the country will feel the cold wind of harsh economic reality...

Re: Warning: Farmers are EVIL?

"when power is held by those of an older generation, it will always be seen as Righwing"

tell me that right is Bad and Left is good.

I'm not going to tell you that either is good, why? because they're positions, static things, society and people at large are fluid, changing with a need for changing power/political structures, today's far right would be seen as a moderate centre party in another time

comments that aggravate or of no difference than those that stimulate, it's all in the reception of them, if they don't fit into a your (using the collective term here rather than the personal) belief system then they minght seem wrong, even heratical or offensive, to ignore them will insure you stay happy, to challange them might undo your ideas, rather than those posed, that's why people argue, as much to re-enforce themselves as to inform others

and i would hope that the writers here have a wide range of social and political upbringing and beliefs, makes for a more interesting life.

ollie.

Re: Warning: Farmers are EVIL?

Sorry to go off at a slight tangent, but do you think there could be a connection between the xenophobia of the countryside relative to large cities and its relative poverty? Cities that absorb large numbers of immigrants tend to benefit economically in the long run - immigrants being net producers on average.

Re: Warning: Farmers are EVIL?

I simply don't swallow that line, and I've heard it many times before. It's about time we got away from that kind of post-modern conciliatory idea that there should be no ideological positions, that our views must adapt according to societal change.

The fact is that genuine belief, genuine ideology, affect how society operates. In other words, doggedly changing ones beliefs in order to fit change that we haven't had a say in is a means of relinquishing our democratic right to change the world around us.

New Labourites somehow managed to convince some party members that the so called triumph of free-marketism was irrevocable and that the Party should change accordingly. Now, of course, we're seeing a general disaffection with those same ideas. It's the same principle - the illusion of modernisation was shown to be merely coercion to new, and foolhardy, ideas.

That doesn't mean that dogged ideology shouldn't mold to fit change...but it does mean that the idea of absolute ideology shouldn't be rejected outright. (This is what you are doing when you say that both Right and Left have the same value.) When this happens, we lose our ability to challenge change for the worse, and we lose our ability to induce change for the better.

Re: Warning: Farmers are EVIL?

Yep, I would go along with that. Like you said before, the influx of immigrants into London has been entirely beneficial economically, as well as giving the city some ammunition against the mono-racial sterility and intolerance often found in rural areas.

Re: Warning: Farmers are EVIL?

I know, while not the same direct action, it is depriving a person of a right, a lifestyle choice, or even something so basic to their personality that it isn't a choice

the right to control over our own bodies is one of the most basic elements of our human rights, so the right to eat whatever we choose is just as basic

the vegetarian issue tends to lean, not towards self empowerment, self improvment and self forfillment, as it should, and while not as vocal, often does, but ratrher it tends towards the view that "eating meat is wrong" rather than "eating veg is good"

which is the differance between loving your country/city (pride), and disliking another (hate)

ollie.

Re: Warning: Farmers are EVIL?

actualy, with absolute ideology, right and Left do have the same value, taken to total extremes, opposite positions tent to do just that

Ideology is just that, an idea, not a blueprint for good/bad it should be the beginning, not teh end of teh matter

I do not like democracy, that is democracy the way it is today.

again, I'm not going to tell you the right way to vote, to act, to be part of society, if 51% of the people wanted to, they could

an ideology is not a way to live, it'a a way to think, there's a difference

ollie.

Re: Warning: Farmers are EVIL?

yet it's the cities where the riots/racist problems are at their most violent.

a multicultural society can't be acheaved untill the very term isn't anylonger valid, by further re-enforcing personal/group identities, be they regional or ethnic/racial will do nothing but divide people further

hence my dislike of rigid country/city localisation of intrests, the 'this is ours, not theirs' view doesn't help this, wether it's of money, land or national identity

ollie.

Re: Warning: Farmers are EVIL?

ah, finaly someone notes that I haven't come out in suport for one specific side/faction here, mearly for teh education/addressing of th issue at furtehr length

pressure groups don't work in mabeys and prehaps' that's the over riding problem with them, real issues can be missed, or promoted to th extent taht they no longer address the point

and as for cold winds, I'm attempting to talk in realities here, not scare-tactic party manifesto slogans.

ollie.

eh ?

since when has London had to fork out for the rest of the country ?
don't forget London's interested are represented politically ... something which can't be said for the rest of the country.
in my part of the world, people are more pro-Europe, for example, because the idea of being ruled by a remote city miles away from them isn't exactly unfamiliar.

Re: eh ?

being pro-europe is being pro-intergrationthe city state systems of antiquity failed when they tried to stand alone, as will single nations now

get rid of borders decided by geography or a war hundreds of years passed and get on with it

ollie.

Re: eh ?

there is a north/south divide both politically and economically. divide the country in half, it's more democratic that way.

Re: Warning: Farmers are EVIL?

It's simply no good denying conflict when it exists. It needs to be resolved. And I disagree...distinct ethnic identities are vital in a multicultural society. One cannot deny each culture it's own distinct features, particularly if that culture is in the minority - it's uniqueness is it's only defence.

Re: eh ?

Finally, something we can agree on...!! Isolationism should be a policy of the past.

Re: Warning: Farmers are EVIL?

it a survey about racial relations conducted in Cuba, when asked the question 'how important is your race/ethnic group to you' most people did not understand the question

when colour/race no longer matters, that's when you've got a multicultural society, not when people begrudgingly accept the existance of 'them'

difference can be a cause of division, but it doesn't *have* to be so

ollie.

Re: Warning: Farmers are EVIL?

I'm sorry, but to argue that Right and Left are the same simply because the two polar extremes occasionally meet is spurious. Your affected attempts at post-modern ethical discourse may sound compelling at times, but they collapse when put in a proper political context - sure, hard-left anarchists and hard-right conservatives can be compared because of their disregard for central government, but their reasons for such a stance and the surrounding political minutiae that comprise the opposing ideologies mark them out as utterly different, not only in an academic sense but in a practical sense too.

Ideology expressly determines what one views as good or bad, and try telling a member of the Mexican Zapatistas that ideology isn't a way of life.

Re: Warning: Farmers are EVIL?

I reject the idea that a cause or belief should only have a positive proposition...it is quite sensible for vegetarians to promote a vegetarian diet while *also* condemning carniverous eating habits and the mechanics of supporting such a lifestyle.

Sure, the distinction between pride in your surroundings and hate for anothers is an important one, but that hasn't been an issue here...I may live in a city, and i personally find countryside living (I have experienced it) unstimulating and stifling. That doesn't mean that I reject the right of others to enjoy it and favour it over city life.

Re: Warning: Farmers are EVIL?

I agree entirely with the last sentence of your post, which basically said what I had said about multiculturalism - the key is difference *and* tolerance. Once tolerance of variety is established, then multiculturalism can prosper. I'm not sure, however, that race and identity "shouldn't matter" - the existence of a variety of races certainly shouldn't matter, but the distinction of each culture shouldn't have to be forgotten. By levelling out cultural difference, multiculturalism collapses and becomes merely the subjugation of cultures that decide to retain their identity, exactly the sort of policy favoured by the likes of Norman Tebbit, who thinks that young Asians should support England's cricket team and not that of their homeland.

Re: Warning: Farmers are EVIL?

mowing the lawn can be a way of life, it's just not mine, nore is it one that i see as good/usefull to me

ideology is someone elses, it's from another time often in another place, you can live and die by it if you want to, as many people do, but why do it for 'the cause' rather than your own one?

post modernism? would seeing politics and ideology etc as something seperate from, even above reality be said to be post modern? i hate the term myself

the problem comes when they are seen as seperate, when people try to analize and label movements, thoughts and ideas, 'if you do/think this you are that' etc

the term 'social/political science' sits very well with 'eugenics' 'ethnic cleansing' and 'master race' don't you think?

ollie.

Re: Warning: Farmers are EVIL?

and i, while stating the ideal form of personal belief system, that of likeing your stuff and not annoying people about their stuff, don't follow it myself

when an extreamist group begin to promote their ideas, they tend to attack those of others as a means to do this, not that Viva! here are by any means the most extreme animal rights/vegetarian group around (unless the letters they've dispatched explode on arrival) there are others, in this aswell as other areas of society/culture who will go that little bit further to prove to the world how much they believe in something

that is both the best, and worst thing someone can do, all because they believe it's the right thing to do, isn't it?

ollie.

Re: Warning: Farmers are EVIL?

to use a tired and boring example, that's the same as forcing all people in manchester to suport Manchester United (or the other team, whoever they are) untill they leave the city limits when their support must suddenly change to something else

cultural/racial variations amongst people is as good a thing as different hair colour, eye colour, accent etc all make us who we are, and to attempt to make everyone the same in some way would fail

I'm not saying that defference is bad as it causes problems, I'm saying that difference is good, and that problems occur, culture is both a personal thing aswell as a group thing, you don't have to lose you identity to be part of a group, neither do you have to lose you group identity to be an individual

from tribes of different famlies, to villages of different tribes, to citys of different villages, the world have been slowly growing 'together' with more and more cultural and racial divisions being lost, to attempt to halt it ('kick out' non british born people etc) will only delay the inevitable by a few years, racial predjustices will go just as regional ones have

people still joke about accents and north/south divides, but it's not a reason to paint up and go to stone-age war anymore

it will come, it's just how fast and easily the old men of teh world will allow it

ollie.

Re: eh ?

have you ever purchased something with Euros?

i have, i felt, for one transaction at least, that i was no longer English, but that i was on step closer to being truely International.

it felt good.

ollie.

Warning: Farmers are EVIL?

I wish all these bloody stupid veggies and animal rights people would fuck off and get a proper job.

thank you

Re: Warning: Farmers are EVIL?

I'd agree that the rigid town/country division is generally unhelpful. What I would argue, however, is that when the proportion of money that leaves cities to support the countryside is as great as it is at present, it's a form of imbalance/ injustice that needs to be highlighted. And from my personal experience, it's usually people from the country who emphasise the divide.

Re: Warning: Farmers are EVIL?

Whilst I acknowledge that my turn of phrase sounded dangerously close to a party-political slogan, it is a fact that London could exist as an economic entity without the rest of the UK; not that I'd seriously champion that cause - I just felt it necessary to point out to any anti-metropolitan whingers out there just who pays for everything (and that a greater proportion of taxes raised in London/other major cities could be spent there).

Re: Warning: Farmers are EVIL?

set one city apart from the country, why not set one country apart from the world? that'd work, who needs imports, exports, trade, commerce etc?

London is not seperate from the world, it is the main area of the country that draws money in from the world, if you cut off the money sucked in by teh buisness centre of teh country, you, as a city, would have very little left to go on

cutting off London from teh rest of england via the flow of money would cause just the same problem as cutting off Londong from the vast network of material and labour supplies that head into The City every day

a city is the centre of the local buisness/population area, not the whole thing, lock the staff in an office because 'they don't need outside' and see what happens

ollie.

Pro-London bias?

"since when has London had to fork out for the rest of the country ?". "Since time immemorial" might be a tempting answer, but certainly in living memory - I suggest you check the facts about how taxes are collected and distributed in this country.

As for you assertion that, "London's interested (sic) are represented politically" - well, that theory simply doesn't hold water, it's just a typical piece of anti-metropolitan prejudice (or should I say inverted snobbery?). Just because Westminster and Whitehall are within Greater London doesn't mean that politician care more about about Londoners than about other people; after all, look at the history of London-wide government over the last twenty-odd years (Thatcher abolishing the GLC, Tony Blair trying to shoe-horn Frank Dobson into the position of Mayor against the wishes of London and Labour's branch membership in London).


"in my part of the world, people are more pro-Europe...". And which part of the country would that be, exactly? Rural or urban? My perception has been that the countryside are generally far more antiEuropean than city dwellers. If you asked Londoners, you'd probably find them for more pro-European than average for this country.


Warning: Farmers are EVIL?

i am the son of a farmer, and until a few years back when things started to change in farming we did not have a car.
i only know 1 farm out of about 80odd that are making money.

You vegatarians make me sick, if we all stopped eating meat all sheep , male calves would be shot at birth. sheep and male calves only live because people eat meat. get it into your thick vegatarian brains. as Tremor said fuck off and get a real job veggies and Animal rights people.
you veggies may be happy to protest about animal rights, but then most of you wear big slobby lipstick and were leather and eat jelly , mashmallows , all made from Cows and Horses.
so just fuck off and leave us people alone.
in 3 years time we may be all shooting our calves and lambs at birth if there are any more veggies and then animal rights people would see what we have to do because we cant sell the meat because of the price.


well said ollie in all of your replies are Ollie and Tremor from farm's or faming communities? we need people like you to support us.

i work over 40hours a week and im in school, my dad works about 75hours and he does nothing compared to most people i know, most people i know get up at 4am and finish work at 7or8pm every day of there life to milk and supply milk for you fuckers out there, and they make about £50/day.
Aled

Re: Warning: Farmers are EVIL?

I agree with you to an extent. I'm not vegetarian, I have no trouble with eating meat, and I support free range farming because it not only protects the rights of animals but it protects the countryside and ensures fields and so on are still needed.

HOWEVER, when people make a perfectly legitimate lifestyle choice for whatever reason.And i know many vegetarians, and a veganm and they really are truly careful that EVERYTHING they eat is vegetarian. It does NOTHING AT ALL for your cause to accuse them of being stupid and disgusting. Vegetarian people have generally considered their lifestyle choice very carefully and are not stupid ignorant fools as you would have us believe.

Very well, criticise them, put forward your argument, but base insults just make you look like a bigoted fool.

Warning: Farmers are EVIL + MILK kills too

People seem to have finally woken up to the fact that milk kills you.

It's not coincidence that China/Japan has a 1/9000 Cancer rate with no milk drinking and the UK where everyone does a pint a day is 1/9.

The British government has bailed them out for long enough, they should go the same way as the mines.

Re: Warning: Farmers are EVIL?

so was Gandhi

Re: Warning: Farmers are EVIL?

Is Aleds post someone on the board having a laugh ?

If not, first prize for most stupid, illinformed hateful pish I've seen on this board.

You're all working 16 hour days and losing money for the privilege, yet generalise all vegetarians as thick. Well done.

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