Time For Change tonight: free guestlist

I'm going.

yep, that is a phenomenal line up.

shouldn't you be focussing your attention elsewhere Mr Bush?

Oh you fucking nob!!!
Are you really that gulible to believe everything you read? Have you not sussed out how this tabloid media shit works?
What makes a more interesting story (a) Bush stood his ground well & showed he is a more suitable president than Kerry or (b) John Kerry twatted Dubya in the debate?
Obviously the latter is more controversial and more likely to cause a stir and fucking pricks like you get sucked in by it. I saw the debate and can judge by myself without having to be told by some left wing newspaper.
And fancy holding prisoners without trial or access to legal aid, why do they do this? Do you know the full story? NO, so shut up you dick!
Please at least try to know the FULL story and not just the one sided shit that Michael Moore has told you to believe. If they had illegally invaded Iraq why hasn't there been charges against the US & UK?
If you're so much against the government why are you living here and funding them with your taxes and money? Fuck off if you're so much against it. Or do you like being a backseat Hypocrite?
Do you honestly think you know better that Bush and Blair on such issues?
No, I don't think so either, so sod off and read your copy of 'Dude, where's my country?' again and continue to think that makes you a qualifed world leader and political expert so we can all carry on laughing at what a prick you are.

Of course I saw the debate, I just said so in my last post you pillock, what bit of "I saw the debate" did you find hard to understand?
At what point did Kerry 'twat' Bush? What points did Kerry come up with that has not been said before?
You hear and believe what you want to beleive and all this crap about Kerry coming out on top has obviously been put about by Bush haters, who are, unless you haven't noticed, slightly biased. Just cos the Daily Mirror (an anti-Bush paper) readers said in a poll that Bush got 'twatted', does not mean it's what actually happened.
I remember watching Prime Ministers question time around the time of the 'Top up fee' topic where you had students putting dumb questions to Blair and him easily cutting them down to size and making their point sound pathetic and yet the media reported the next day "Students give Blair a Roasting". I suppose you won't acknowledge the fact that Bush is now way higher than Kerry in opinion polls in the U.S. since this debate. No doubt Michael Moore hasn't mentioned this so you won't hear about it.
Can you really see Kerry handling this War on terror or the Iraq situation? No, neither can the Americans, which is why Bush will get in again.
My 'leave the country if you don't like the government' point was an over exagerated point that you obviously didn't pick up on. I'm just fed up with prats like you who sit there mouthing off against the government but do fuck all about it. You just sit there reaping the benefits of a free, democratic, wealthy country.
If I was so against this country I'd do something.
I know you all think you sound more clever and politically aware if you oppose the government, but in reality you just come across as stupid, gullible and uneducated. I admit I don't know the full story of all these topics so I trust our leaders. Tony Blair has children, do you seriously think he doesn't want the best for them? Do you really think he's worked his way up to being the most powerful man in Britain just so he can fuck the country up?
But, oh no, you read your Daily Mirror and have seen Farenheit 9/11 so you OBVIOUSLY know more than Blair and all of the MPs. IDIOT!
Oh and as for Bush not understanding what Democracy is......what a good point to conclude your argument. Well done! Really proves you know what you're talking about. About as good a point as Michael Moore's "George Bush can't read and write" Pwahahaha!
PRICK!

"I suppose you won't acknowledge the fact that Bush is now way higher than Kerry in opinion polls in the U.S. since this debate. No doubt Michael Moore hasn't mentioned this so you won't hear about it."

Well... let's look at those polls.
Before the debate CNN/USA/Gallup all had Bush well ahead with his rating in the high 50s while Kerry languished in the low 40s. After the debate Bush fell to 49% and Kerry climbed to 47%.

CBS/NY Times had a similar picture, with Bush about 10 points ahead. After the debate their pollsters found both men level on 47%.

Everything else appears to have been quite calmly and properly said by ice cream man so, back to the music...

Japan you annoyed me most with this comment:

"And fancy holding prisoners without trial or access to legal aid, why do they do this? Do you know the full story? NO, so shut up you dick!"

yeah 'shut up you dick!' nobody deserves to be treated by their basic human rights of trial judge and jury- of course if these men are dangerous they should face the proper legal procedure- I'm not questioning that- however how does the world know if they're genuinely a threat when denyed there most basic human rights? How many of the men in Guantanimo bay are a real true danger to the world?

We don't know is the answer because they are illegally held- evidence is we're torturing them and murders have taken place of prisoners under duress- the us army acknowledges this...

They're locked away without their rights as set out in almost every developed nations legal protocol since the geneva convention and the start of the UN- but it don't matter right cos they're from a poor country that we the rich west have the right to exploit for our own purposes.

The usa wants its cake and eat it the land of freedom is acting as badly as many of the rogue states it claims to be fighting for 'freedom' (replace freedom for money in most pro-usa war speeches and you get what i mean)

Go count your trust fund money David...

Methinks 'Japan' = 'youdontknow', a well-remembered piss poor excuse for a political commentator from the comfortably numb hard right.

Ignore him children, we'll move upwind.

For the record, yes I watched it. And when even Fox News are calling it for Kerry, it's fair to say your man got a twatting.

By the way, I thought the VPs were more evenly matched and the gig suited Cheney, who probably did best. Doesn't mean I like the corrupt old cunt but he held Edwards off.

you are obviously obsessed by this michael moore character. maybe if you took your head out of your arse for one second you might twig that no-one but you has mentioned him. seeing as no-one on the knowledgeable left give an amazing amount of credence to Moore's theories- beyond the fun we get out of him winding up ignorant people like you- i think it's safe to say you are on the wrong tack. if you want to persuade people of something, you might want to get a decent handle of what they actually think in the first place. but i guess that would burst your safe little bubble.

having said that, seeing as every post you have made has been in this thread, i suspect that you are little more than a troll. you're quite entertaining, but not a serious contender.

Maybe Japan is going to step into Againstthegrain's shoes and continue his pointless trolling.

Japan please can you post in the main forum
i just know you'll be popular ;o)

My only reply to any of your 'what would you do- what would you have done'-is go in with UN backing LEGALLY!

The war was a knee jerk reaction and a chance for bush jr to try and sort out something daddy didn't 12 years previously- there is a right and wrong way to go about these things we did it wrong- if it was just about the threat and Saddams human rights violations why don't we go into North Korea, zimbabwe, etc etc--- its about oil you goon

Of course i don't support sadam- but i do like sticking within human rights and international laws...

Also still no reply on kyoto?

its funny how when backed into a corner you just shout prick and knob cos your loosing the fight oh yeah check out your polls did we?

he was twatted!

i get the feeling this guy does post on the main forum already. Perhaps 'japan' is merely an alternate user name that he uses merely to peddle this neo-fascist stuff he's spouting so that he can still post his opinions on keane without fear of reprocussion for these crowd baiting opinions.

IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT ANY OLD HUMAN RIGHT VIOLATIONS FOR GOD SAKE!!!!
How many terrorists that have killed Americans have been sheltered by Zimbabwae???
How many terrorists that have made attacks on mainland America have been protected by Zimbabwae??
How many suicide bombers have Zimbabwae sponsored or supported who have killed Americans???
NONE!
What do you want America to do? Do you want them to go and invade Zimbabwae just to prove you wrong?
Anti war protesters go on complaining about Iraq but then complain cos we're not attacking Zimbabwae. Make up your minds, do you want a war or don't you?
North Korea for your information are at least complying and corresponding with the US, something Iraq didn't.
What's the big deal about the KYOTO agreement? The reason I had "still not replied" was cos I didn't really feel it was relevant. Clinton signed something, Bush changed it. Not everyone has the same opinion. No doubt you'd be one of the people moaning when the price of petrol goes up cos of this.

And finally, I don't believe I am losing the fight (or loosing it as you put it) or being backed into a corner by you cos basically everything I'm in favour of has happened.
The war in Iraq, the ousting of Saddam, prisoners being held all is what I agree in. So at the end of the day you're the only one who's 'loosing' cos you don't like the decisions being made by Bush and there's fuck all you can do about it. UN-Fucking-LUCKY!!!
Remember, Bush WILL get in again, so enjoy the next 5 years mate.

Argh! I have tried to resist but I can't.

What is wrong with ousting a psycopathic dictator? Nothing.
What is completely wrong is the way the Bush administration has gone about it.
They invaded Iraq with no clear idea what they were getting themselves into. As a result a lot of people (that's innocent, everyday people) have died and been maimed and traumatised and the country has fallen into chaos.
It is a power vaccuum which has been filled by militants, extremists and, yes, terrorists. The very people Mr Bush says he is fighting a war against. Sadly he has instead created the conditions in which such people thrive.
Who suffers? The Iraqi people (yes, they were suffering before, surely they now deserve a fucking break) and the youung troops who have to fight and die there every day in constant fear.
Abu Graib? An absolute disgrace. What happened in that prison is an affront to the common humanity I and I believe Japan share. The same goes for the way people are held without trial (hold them, Japan, but let's have natural, human justice at least) in Guantanamo Bay and Belmarsh Prison.
These abuses and daily brutalities turn people against the west, they undermine "The War on Terror" (which is at best a naive mistake and at worst an Orwellian perma-war nightmare serving only the military-industrial complex) and make the world a more insecure, brutal and paranoid place in which the things we all value are harder to find.
In more general terms I dislike Bush; I think he's an arrogant and reactionary child. I disagree with his views on abortion, on gay rights, etc, etc. That is my tough. I can't do anything about it. That's up to the American people who I pray to God will remember why they were once respected and even loved by many around the world and will throw him out before he squanders a century and more of good will towards their country.
What soes bug me are the actions which affetc us all. That includes Iraq and it includes Kyoto. We all breath the same air, mate and it's getting dirtier. Yes, I could get on my bike - we all share responsibility. That includes Bush - he could do something about it but tragically he doesn't see it.
Japan, your response?
Sorry this is so long but there was a lot to cover...

Japan .... or should i say Dave.... you are a selfish prick with a very narrow minded view on things- I hope that one day you'll see the error of your ways- i guess I've said everything that i wanted to say- however judging by the response i think maybe your the only one with your point of view on here... there doesn't seem to be anybody backing you up...

"however judging by the response i think maybe your the only one with your point of view on here... there doesn't seem to be anybody backing you up..."

Yeah that's right, nobody is backing me up on here. Oh dear what am I going to do? How tragic for me!.
Well fortunately, George Bush and Tony Blair do have the same views as me and they're the important ones. They are the ones that have the power to, and indeed have, made all the decisions that I approve of and you don't.
At the end of the day I'm pleased with what's going on, and the fact that some leftie wannabe music journos don't agree with me doesn't exactly bother me.
I'm a "selfish prick with a very narrow minded view" Cos I don't agree with you and refuse to join this fashionable anti-establishment bollocks in a vague attempt to make me look more intelligent than I am.
Just remember, at any point in the last 12 years Saddam Hussein could have prevented what happened last year but refused. Saddam created this war not Bush or Blair.
I'm sorry if supporting my country against terrorism upsets you, but that's the way I feel. Unless someone can give me a good reason to think otherwise (other than the usual repetitive "war for oil" or Michael Moore propaganda) I shall continue to do this. Your views and points were poor but I suppose you deserve some sort of slap on the back for trying, even though you all failed miserably.
Next stop Iran.....

Just discovered this delightful and insightful thread so I'll add me two penneth:

On the war: Getting rid of Sadaam Hussein was undoubtably a good thing, but the more I think about it it's the ONLY good thing that has come from the whole debacle. And I honestly don't know whether Iraq (and the world at large) might have been better off if he was still running the show there.

Thinking about it, just what has replaced his tyranny? Some things I can think of are:

1.More tyranny under the rouse of democracy, granted a different and arguably 'better' form of tyranny, but tyranny is still tyranny.

2.Chaos on the streets of Bagdad, Basra and other parts of the Arab world.

3. Lots of Good and Evil people royally pissed off about the whole thing. With lots of Evil people plotting God knows what as a result.

4. Cynical money making opportunities for already rich westerners (not just with oil, but with other things, in particular Construction, too).

5. Subsequent kidnappings and inhumane killings of said money motivated opportunist westerners that the already rich media hi-jack for their own financially motivated reasons.

6. Everyone getting royally pissed off with a political party that is actually quite good overall- war aside- and our country moving dangerously close to a Lib/Lab coallition government after the next election (it will happen kidz, I am a soothsayer) and the ensuing chaos that it'll bring.

7. Loads of politically minded bright- if misguided- young people joining evil political parties like the BNP and particularly the Conservative party (just watch their conference on TV for evidence) as well as increased membership and public appreciation for mickey mouse parties like the Liberal Democrats, SWP, Plaid Cymru, SNP and UKIP. This happens because the kidz are being taught to hate Labour by every mode of influence out there (regardless of whether that influence is left, right or middle).

8. Neglect of other equally or more important political, national, international and social issues by the political media, governments and electorates alike.

All these things considered, from a utilitarian point of view, if Sadam was still in charge of Iraq and there was no war in the first place, I'm inclined to think that maybe things'd be a lot better for a lot more people out there (even if it meant that the people of Iraq were still enduring his evil).

I really must say though, even though that Japan guy is evidently a right wing crotch pheasant, he had one amazingly excellent point:

Everyone seems to have a whole lotta political passion and knowledge and obviously a lotta people are genuinely concerned for the country and the world at large, yet, what the fuck is everyone doing about it?????

Going on camp student or far-left protests, no matter how good the intensions are, won't achieve anything good or worthwhile.

Voting against Labour in any given election or abstaining from voting alltogether won't achieve anything good or worthwhile (and at the moment it's also definitely debatable whether voting FOR Labour will achieve anything good or worthwhile).

I implore everyone of the left-wing ilk with passion and a political mind to join the Labour party, seek political office and reclaim what is a historically marvellous institution back from the Fools and Tories who now control it (having had the enlightening experience of meeting Tony Blair recently I am now of the opinion that he is both a Fool and a Tory- but not an evil person).

Being a mere Armchair Socialist will achieve nothing good or worthwhile. Becoming a truly Socialist and benevolent Labour politician will.

And it's easier than you think:

I myself ran for council as the official Labour candidate for my home district in June and polled 1913 votes. I didn't get elected though, cos just over 2000 or so other people voted for the same tired, old, famously incompetent Lib Dem candidate instead, purely as a gesture against Blair and the war.

Next election time I will stand again and hopefully things'll turn out different. Even if they don't, I WILL keep on trying.

If you've got a beef with the government and politics in general and you despise social injustice THEN FOR FUCK'S SAKE GET UP OF YOUR FAT ARSE AND DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT! Don't just sound off articulately and insightfully on internet messageboards! Actions speak louder than words.

People are sufferring all around us and are in need of our help. We might not be able to stop it all but maybe we can stop some of it (or even most of it). I'm game for a fight (against social injustice) are you?

Rant Dunn

Neil, I'm terribly sorry for any precieved impertinence, but did you read my post?

I did say protesting was futile, I did say the present Labour Executive is shit and full of Tory Pricks (with obvious exceptions like Peter "Please, please, please be our next PM - oh God if only!" Hain).

You said you want the party to:

"realign with its core support and gear up for a real fight for social injustice, not one based on the fudged compromise of socialism and free-market economics"

That was the whole point of my post! There's no point in just saying these things! Become a member and make it happen! Fight the shitheads from within the beast!

If you're such a Socialist you SHOULD be doing this sort of thing! As a Cambridge student that makes you one of the most gifted young individuals in the country, you should use your mind and skills to "fight social injustice" as you yourself describe. If people like YOU don't get involved then more Tories like Blair will!

Seriously man, as a gifted Socialist intellectual do you honestly not feel any sense of responsibility towards those on the recieving end of the dogshite that the system throws at them?

As Edmund Burke once said:

"The only thing neccessary for the triumph of Evil is for Good men to do nothing" (and no, the irony that he was himself a Tory isn't lost on me...)

People like you CAN make a difference if you so choose...

Tony Benn couldn't win an election, true. But somebody Left of Blair but Right of Benn COULD. Definitely.

"but you're asking me to fall back in love with the past ideology of a party that has abandoned it in favour of cheap political points. and that puts me in an impossible position.. "

That is the precise gargantuan error that a student of politics will always make. Mistaking the nature of the executive for the nature of the party as a whole. I've met dozens of MPs and hundreds of grassroots party members and believe me, "past ideogies" as you so misguidedly put it, are alive and well in the Labour party and clost to a massive ejaculation of a comeback.

But then, as an outsider and theoritician, not directly involved, you can't be expected to know that, "Mere Prattle not Practice" in the words of Shakespeare's Iago (and, again, the irony of me quoting a dedicated follower of Machiavelli isn't lost on me, but the quote is more than pertinent).

You should really shed your naive and unfounded prejudices they so don't suit someone so otherwise erudite...

Well, at least this beats being slagged off for my Libertines review...

Jared, please... I DO understand that the grassroots of a party is different from those controlling it. Studying politics isn't always about having your head lodged up Plato's ass y'know.. However, I'm sure you understand that (as this government has proved so effectively ), those controlling the party are not necessarily beholden to those grass roots.

I have to say that I'm not too keen on this sniping about theory, or the insinuation that i'd much rather stroke my chin than do anything worthwhile. To use your own words, often 'prettle' leads to 'practice.' A guy called Antony Giddens writes a few books advocating a new form of politics called the "Third Way," and in a few years a young leader of the opposition changes the name of his party and uses this theory as the basis on which he wants to govern. A guy called Francis Fukuyama writes a book advocating the spread of "American values" across the globe. A few years later it gets siezed upon by some neo-con intellectuals as the basis to bomb the fuck out of the Middle East.

I know that decisions are made by those that show up, but sometimes those asking the most important questions *are* the ones watching from the sidelines. The Labour left doesn't really know where it's going (if it did, Blair would be in the dumper by now), and doesn't know exactly how to achieve its lofty ideals. So in the absence of that, I'd much rather learn my way around politics and theory so that when I do feel ready to 'show up,' i know i'll be making the right decisions.

I do really admire your commitment though - it can't be easy being a Labour activist at the moment.