Courtney Love
America's Sweetheart

Courtney Love......who fucking cares?

I dont like her because i really feel that shes hung on for too long. Even the solo lp isnt written by her soley.
Plus her face is fast becoming more botoxed and plastic each photoshoot i see.
how R'n'R.

how dreadful- someone not doing their ENTIRE own album! almost makes me want to cut off my own ears and lock myself in some sweaty dirty garret. Since when did everyone write every one of their fucking songs ANYWAY!? Shit, i'd better get back to wanking off over my oxfam jumpers a la badly yawn sex toy and be a real credible artist!! zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Re: Surgery- who gives a fuck!! "i am so real i am beyond fuck"...make some money treat yourself! god knows courtney's spent aeons looking and acting like a beautiful mess...and i bet everyone thought she needed to sort out the way she looked then too and gave her enuff shit over it...shame she didnt turn into a lovely gwyneth paltrow...all nice and conservative like a nice wifey...sigh...apron and all....

its also such a shame about these fucking bitches who decided to "hang on" longer than they're needed. yeah girls really need to realise they're good for a record then get the picture and sod off once they've done the cover of maxim. Heaven forbid a WOMAN lasting more than ten years in the music industry!!! And god a woman over 25 aswell!! It's a good thing we got rid of Nina Simone the other year--but then again she was black and loveable in a nice old way....aww bless her....

being real's all in the fucking mind.....

I reckon she'd eat most guys for breakfast... and most guys definitely fantasise about that!

See, these are the kinda posts that make me want to hate what we've created here at DiS towers. I'm sorry, but I dunno whether this is naievity or just plain ignorance.
Just about every great record ever, had more than the sum of the people holding the mic's imagination, specialism and creation gone into it. Producers make a huge difference. Once upon a time A&R kept things in check. Managers. People whose second opinions and external ears make suggestions, all go into a record. As do things read in books, things heard on other records.

Courtney wanted to create a record with the pop suss someone of her status needs. How does one person, with so much anticipation, and so much exageration, ever hope to acheive that without (ab)using someone elses talents?
At least she is honest about the co-writes. And it's better than all these bands who just steal other peoples ideas and call 'em their own. This isn't cheating, it's using what you've got and having the ability to know when to ask for help, rather than possibily letting yourself down. Genius is about theiving - from Robin Hood through Grokster.
RnR is breathing again - here lies thee proof.
Hanging on, because you can, is punk rock.
Did anyone respect Joe Strummer any less because he was older?
Or Tom Waits?
Or Pj Harvey?
Is it better to burn out or keep stoking the flames, with beauty, dignity and hard lessons learnt?

"make some money treat yourself! " Inane or what?????

Courtney is the greatest thing in Mock 'n Roll.

Thank fuck I left Stoke Newington. Ugly woman makes dull record. So what? Ugly in every way, dull in every way. A desparate ego (thought only men had those?) with nothing to say.

Ho-hum. Courtney Love just isn't very good people. As Shotkey said, who cares? Her utter irrelevance to the musical landscape in 2004 is startling. And what's even more shocking is that people still fall for the preening publicity-seeking, the depressing staple-myself-to-someone-famous routine and the same old boring shock tactics. With Brody and the Distillers beating her at her own game, and homegrown, genuinely engaging talent like PJ Harvey and Carina Round continuing to interest on a much higher plane, I'm amazed anyone remembers who she is. Oh yeah, Kurt, shit, forgot about that…

i've got to give credit here- the article actually talks it better than Courtney does - it's re-hashed Hole- bearable, but only just.

Brilliant she returns and gives us all something to talk about again. Thats why she exists and as was mentioned before in that way she is a little like eastenders... i bet even her kidneys fucked.

I've never really been much of a fan really to be honest, although 'Celebrity Skin' was OK. Though I find it difficult to understand that many people can't see through Brodie Doyle's 'Courtney Idol' impersonation!

Looking forward to the Auf Der Maur album a whole lot more. From what I've heard that sounds very special.

Uh-huh, of course it's institutional sexism that makes me think Courtney's shit. Remind me to destroy all my PJ Harvey records along with my Kim Deal adoration too. Now you don't like the Distillers so all good credit to you. The simple thing is that Courtney hasn't been involved with a semi-decent record since Live Through This was released nearly a decade ago and is way more famed for her tabloid moments than any musical endeavour. Many pro-Courtney people are the same people who'd say that Liam Gallagher was a Neanderthal tabloid licking lunkhead. What's worse: someone who is a bit dumb acting up or someone who does possess intelligence making themselves look stupid? I don't think Courtney's an evil psycho Cobain murdering bitchqueen from hell, she's clearly got some intelligence up there, I just don't think she's worthy of any huge musical attention. Anyhow, anything she can do to promote this album will be inferior to Janet Jackson's clever Superbowl act.

Sexist Male Geek Pig of Ontario.xx

I've not heard the record, so I can't pass any judgement on it. I only wish to say how worrying it is that people are still so obsessed with her. I just don't see why everyone gets so obsessive about everything she does, every move she makes, every record she releases. It beggars belief that people blame her for Kurt Cobain's death; likewise this sudden move towards regarding her as some sort of demi-god figure is just completely incomprehensible.

I also don't like the way everyone justifies her every musical action by aid of the cringe-worthy "rock and roll" tag. It's an image, people: I'm not going to be so trite as to suggest that her "contributions to pop culture", no matter if you think they exist or not, are completely worthless, but surely calling her "rock'n'roll" doesn't make the music any better?

er, there is a live review here: http://www.drownedinsound.com/articles/8198.html

but that doesnt hide the fact the albums rubbish? I to have heard it.

If anyone can get their hands on a copy, watch the video of Sonic Youth's "The Year That Punk Broke". It's a tour video from their 1991 European tour featuring a pre-Teen Spirit famous Nirvana and one very shy acting Courtney Love, at that time playing with Babes in Toyland. Even with MTV cameras around, she acts in a manner that would surprise many who only know her as that crwazee rock lady. It's that image of Courtney that should balance against her wild tabloid image. She is an artist but an artist who has lived off of reputation rather than her body of work. She's difficult to work with, that much is clear. Anyone who says she pisses just men off clearly forgets the bad words Melissa Auf Der Maur had to say about her as well as one true woman of rock who does have a musical body of work, Kathleen Hanna.

Lennon may have produced the best 'solo Beatle' work, mainly because he's hardly faced with great competition. Personally I prefer George Harrison's stuff but never mind...

It's just thickshit stupidity. It doesn't matter who writes a tune, who co-wrote it, who the producer is, who supplies your bass strings, where you buy pizza from, it simply doesn't matter a fuck. The only thing that matters is the quality of the music produced. So what if she plays around with Linda Perry or Bernie Taupin? Just review the music produced at the end. It's not a bad album, it's going through my speakers right now. I readily admit that I can't think of anything more boring than listening a rich widow talking about her life but that's no reason to damn her. It's probably true that the 'anticipation' around this record is majoritorially PR-created anticipation and not any great fan clamour for new material.

Sideline: Sean, do you consider Courtney Love to be a genius? It almost feels like you're saying it's OK to crib from other sources as long as you're honest about the source. And what do you consider COurtney's status to be?

well opinions are opinions,no one wins. I thought it was blatent pap. Zeplin song made me cringe, and mono and hello (think thats the song), sounded too similar.
You must say it almost has a pop punk edge to it, very appealing for the young 'uns. I'll stick to LTT and her husband.

i'm not entirely sure what your point is. its not whether courtney or yoko are comparable as artists. its just the stupid 'the wife ruined the band' mentality, people find it very easy to blame the wife/girlfriend when really the band are capable of fucking things up all by themselves. its just the women are an easy scapegoat.

It seems like it's an American way of doing things to take potshots at any woman who is a little feisty and headstrong. Take the current case against Martha Stewart for alleged insider trading, the media has gone on serious attack mode with her despite her crimes being less substantial than those high up within Enron. She's suffered the same way that Yoko did and most of it is undeserved. As I said elsewhere, she is a difficult lady to work with, both male and female collaborators/potential collaborators from Billy Corgan to Kathleen Hanna have had problems with her so I don't think it's just a 'men have problems with Courtney' thing. The album's not bad, I had my first listen to it yesterday afternoon after work and it's OK in a pop-punk way. It's not exactly my cup of tea as hearing a rich lady talking about her life isn't something that touches my heart and head and, as the dear Moz sang, says nothing to me about my life but it's not a festering piece of shit. I still stand by my comments on the Mono single ie. that Avril Lavigne does that whole pop rock thing far better.

Ciao!

It doesn't matter whom you consider a genius, what matters is the criteria that you apply when giving out such plaudits as that criteria will be the determining factor as to whether you look vaguely rational for giving out such plaudits or an absolute prick. To apply genius status to someone based on their ability to get in the tabloids and manipulating the media seems pretty damn tawdry and ultimately as facile as the argument given by some people about Pop Idol ie. they must be the best because they sell the most records... to say that Courtney is self-made is absurd. Do you really think that she would have gotten so much attention had Kurt never existed? I agree she has taken control of one side of her but it's ludicrous to say that she's self-made and that her late husband's visibility in the media didn't help her immensely. Try a comparison with another blonde master of media manipulation, the late Princess of Wales, who surely wouldn't have made it into the papers quite so much had she remained Lady Diana Spencer. You say that Michael Jackson is a self-made icon like her: fucking nonsense, the man's musical career was (and still is) inspirational to millions. How can you compare his musical ouevre to that of Courtney, whose last semi-decent album was a decade ago? Has she come up with her 'Off The Wall' yet? No she hasn't.

But hey, this is the fun of it. We can discuss Courtney for what and who she is or isn't because it's ultimately way more exciting than talking about her music, yes?

Having listened to the album through twice I have two words in my head: 'grand' and 'folly'. However, this being Courtney, the record is still damn impressive. It veers (with requisite excess) in between greatness and absolute insanity more than anything I've ever heard.

With Celebrity Skin, her voice was packed too tightly into the mix, but on this record it sounds too separate. Which is annoying and the main bad point. A lot of the songs are great, though. As NME said, it sounds kinda derivative, but in an adrenaline-packed, purposeful way.

Put it this way: if you like Courtney's Hole stuff lots, you'll probably grow into this one and learn to love it, but unfortunately I can't see it winning over many new fans from scratch. It's very much what we've come to expect from her - the unexpected.

Do you own any of Malcolm's albums?

Shit! this is exactaly my fucking point its been nearly 10 years since kurt died people, what exactaly do you expect courtney to do?
The only reason courtney is so hated is because she was married to kurt cobain, how dare she have a carrer of her own? wasnt that what people were accusing her of being a NANCY SPUNGEN.
Face it the album is not bad

...and I said that the album's not bad elsewhere. It's not some bolt from the heavens but it's OK. It may have been nearly 10 years since Kurt had that whole shotgun-face incident but it's also been nearly 10 years since Live Through This was released, the last semi-decent record she was involved in (it's better than America's Sweetheart). She had a career of her own pre- and post-Cobain. I'd personally like Courtney to release a decent record and focus less on trying to be so wock n' woll (sic) man. Rich people talking about their cwazee life ain't thrilling.

The only thing I can say is that Courtney Love really cares about music and the music industry, anyone who says different is a lying sack of shit. The reason she is always being talked about is because she hasn't set the record straight with everyone and just let the media tell her story. You know why she hasn't let anyone into who she is, because she couldn't give a fuck and if that ain't rock and roll then I don't know what is.
There are other female icons to talk about other than Courtny Love such as PJ Harvey and Tairrie B who I will admit are more musically gifted and accomplished but I think this whole debate is about whether she is a rock and roll icon or not. Answer is very simple, Fuck Yes.
Does she care what anyone else thinks, Fuck No.
Is her next album any good, how the fuck should I know I haven't heard it yet but does it matter if it's relevant. In my book it only has to be relevant to herself and no one else and that's why she makes music - to express herself. So this debate should really read like this, IT'S SHIT or IT'S GOOD SHIT because is she really gonna care.

"Courtney's musical output is limited"

So is The La's, does that make them any less legendary? Courtney is already a rock 'n' roll icon, and whether or not you like the new album, she's not suddenly going to stob being one. She has already made three great albums - and although there's plenty of debate over which is the best, most will at least agree Live Through This is one of the best albums of the 90s and 'Celebrity Skin' the song is a classic.

One thing this album does is widen the gap between Courtney and the music. She is, after all, primarily a lyricist and provocateur, hence although she loves music, it is first and foremost a platform for her to speak to people. The fact that her voice is exceptionally good at relaying emotion makes even her lesser songs sound powerful.

And I DON'T think it'll sell well. Whether or not it is a great record, it's brilliant in the fact that it sounds like nothing else around at the moment. But the fact is, people will be probably be put off by her voice and her lyrics... simply because they don't aim to please the average joe.

You're accusing Courtney of copying the Distillers? The music sounds nothing like Evanescence at all, there is no nu metal element to any of the songs. You really think Eric Erlandsen or Melissa Auf Der Maur wrote more of the material than Courtney? Have you HEARD Auf Der Maur?

I seem to have to go over and over this same boring ground for people over and over again. Courtney DOES have some musical skill. She CAN write songs. Most of the help she has got is over chord structuring and that sort of thing - certainly that's how Erlandsen described his input in Pretty On The Inside and Live Through This.

But yeah, she's not the best songwriter around, so she gets help. Like a lot of other people. See: The Eagles, Brendan Benson, Evan Dando, Pulp, amongst about a billion others, who've all had major outside input at times.

And stop jumping to conclusions: I never COMPARED The La's and Courtney, I just mentioned them. And I never said the album was original, just that it doesn't sound like anything else around at the moment. Which it doesn't.

What you have said is just absolutely hypocritical. God I hate getting into these petty arguments, but I have read what you've had to say and it's largely waffly and contradictory.

Let's clear some things up. I never compared Courtney or Hole or anyone else to The La's. I used them as an example of a band who have had "limited musical output" to quaff your argument. This is not a comparison, nor do I need a dictionary to tell me so.

Yes, you make some valid points, but you also throw about statements like "she can be a musical icon even if the music's a bit crap?", when she and/or Hole have done some great records. Yes GREAT. G-R-E-A-T.

So, what you seem to be saying is that Courtney DOESN'T sound like Avril or Evanescence, but her guitar sound does. Well, cheers! It also sounds like Fountains Of Wayne, Crackout, Ash, Idlewild and a number of other good bands. Who the fuck cares? It's a GUITAR SOUND.

You're next point is about big name producers, but I already covered that by agreeing she really wants her record to sell a lot of copies. So it's hardly a surprise that she's using tried and tested talent. Does it sound like a Staind record - not at all, so again, what's the problem? And yes, please refrain from being unimaginably dull, I am bored even writing this.

I didn't say that you said that I said that you said that my mum agreed that you said she had no musical skill. But can you honestly say that Lee Mavers has an ounce of the amazing lyrical prowess of Courtney? Or the ability to sing like the world is ending and sound at home over punk, grunge, radio rock, soppy ballads et al? Singing and lyricism ARE musical talents, you know. And as for her writing actual music, all of the argument is entirely speculative, considering neither of us know exactly how much of each song she writes, anyway.

And, yeah, it was unexpected. Of course it wasn't jazz or whatever. Does that mean the newest Spritualized record wasn't a surprise or the Kid A wasn't? It's all still indie rock at the end of the day.

And, for what it's worth, I agree that it is probably her weakest record. But it's still a darn sight more involving than Mudhoney or L7 or whoever rewriting the same album over and over again. I don't waste my life defending Courtney because I think she's some perfect paradigm for kids to copy and look up to. That's exactly what she isn't. I defend her because she's truly a one-off, doing a fuckload of good for rock music, and I've yet to see any cohesive argument against her.

Oh, and I've been back from the pub for hours I think you'll find!

Fine fine fine. Believe me I only get emotionally involved in these debates when people start slagging off other people's parenting skills. I do appreciate you have a right to dislike music and if I have become slightly unhealthily obsessed it's only because I've just finished a thesis on 'er. I don't adore her, I just see a value and intelligence in her that most ignore. Fin.

Fair trousers. Let's call it quits and concentrate our efforts of slagging the fucking Grammy Awards. :)

yadda yadda

Err there's nothing as tuneful on her album even as 'Hold On To Me' which was entirely written by Courtney.

America can have her! If the horrible single "Mono" is anything to go by than I would rather eat pig shit than listen to that cd. I've never really liked or dis-liked Hole (the song "Celebrity Skin" was quite catchy & enjoyable), but "Mono" is annoying, nails running down a chalkboard pain to my ears. I work in a record store & everytime it comes on I have to go in the backroom & get away from it.

Performance ?
On some songs, she sounds like she's singing while swinging a beer in a smoky bar. Talk about performance...

Yeah, but that's interesting. I'd rather hear her sing in a smoky bar, drinking beer, than hear most other "artistes" trying to be "finley crafted." I just think rock is more fun when it's raw. Love's entertaining and her intelligence and charisma shine through, even when she's crazy as hell, or stoned out of her mind.

Good Point! LTT was worth listening to - America's Sweetheart is Lash over Substance

In it's own way it's great, but people were expecting a Live Through This so they're not taking it for what it is.

i've heard every track on the album, and i think it's typical courtney. it sounds like she makes several references to kurt cobain, which i find cool. in summary, i still don't like courtney the person, but the music isn't that bad. i don't know now if i would drop $16 on the album, but listening to the music for free fits just fine.

"As I predicted, it's gone down like a lead balloon." It's not over till it's over, hon. I mean, let's do something about it! Let's spread the word on every board out there, get a bunch of people together to request it on every radio station. I think Courtney's an artist worth fighting for. Her music's always meant a lot to me, and if the media kills her career it's just a tragedy or something. It seems so sexist to me, somehow. As a girl, it seems like they're killing her off on purpose. She's the only rocker worth a shit these days and she's a walking talking revolution. So let's be a revolution, too! We just need to get people to request it, and the video. If we abandon ourselves to the innocence of rock again, we could make some sort of difference. And isn't that what she's asking us to do on Mono? Rise above? Smash it up? I'm gonna write some article or something and spread around everywhere. Who knows? It might accomplish something. America's Sweetheart made me feel like rock is worth fighting for again.

Brody Dalle.

What Courtney should have been

Maybe the kids look at her and realise that she's about the same age as their parents. S'funny how you can harp on about Norah Jones. A woman who sells a hell of a lot of records without a mass promo campaign for the first album (originally no singles were to come from it but positive feedback about album tracks played on the radio caused a record company spark to form) versus a a woman who gets the works for her promo campaign and still can't shift much. Who's the more revolutionary there? Courtney really doesn't challenge anywhere near as much or as many as you think.

Have to say, the more I listen to this record the more the lyrics really hit you. There's some totally gutting lines in there like:

"Flying down the boulevard/I'm coming down so fast I'm coming down so hard/And the doctor said I can't stop all those voices in your head/I don't sleep I never dream/And to shut them up I just keep screaming"

I'm sure many of you will argue til you're blue in the face, but as far as I'm concerned Courtney is a far more talented lyricist than Kurt and probably the best confessional writer of our time.

It's impressive, because she creates great art. Lyrically, no one can touch her. Musically, Cobain was more talented, but lyrically Courtney is. I agree with the people that say that she's a genius. I've always thought that, ever since Pretty on the Inside, just based on her lyrical ability alone. Then you factor in that has this great, rough, expressive rock voice, (which I think is as great as Joplin's) as a live performer she's also better than anyone I can think of. Plus, she also has one of the best rock personalities ever. People have compared her to Johnny Rotten, Jim Morrison and other legends. She's even more complex than that, because all arrogance and ego aside, there's also a real vulnerability and neediness there. It's the contrast in her personality and in her music that I really appreciate. Even if she never rocked (which she does ably) she would make some sort of great, fucked-up poet. All of those things add up to legendary rock status, to me.

The fact that she has money (um... all rock stars did, and do eventually) doesn't diminish her talent. A lot of people with shitty childhoods really work hard at the status and money thing. Just taking a look at it all, I can understand that hunger for fame, much moolah and attention. Considering her background, I think it's obvious where it's coming from, and don't consider her to be less of a person because of it. And as a girl, I can certainly relate, because she's trying to grasp at all the classic rock cliches that girls don't often have. Huge fame, huge success, huge amounts of money, huge ego (which we're never allowed to have - she's like, the first mainstream female rock star to have that huge, messy ego, and challenging persona. Madonna can't touch her in that area.)

Plus, she wants success partly because it's a legacy to other females, which she seems obessed about. I appreciate that. Even socially she's made a huge impact, inspiring a lot of bands (Garbage, Distillers, tons of little girl bands.) I don't know how anyone can argue her relevance in the face of the impact she's made on so many artists. Saying she's a pampered rock star doesn't make a shit of a difference, either. So was Joplin, Hendrix, Morrison, and many other rock stars who eventually self-destructed. And their talent was as relevant while they were rich and successful as when they were first starting out. Being rich has nothing to do with being happy. I mean, just look around.

Here's a quote from her that I think is sort of relevant to the whole ambition issue, too:

"Ask a guy in a band. Sometimes the leaders go do their Jason Pierce thing where the leaders fly first class and the band takes the coach. I'm not that sort of leader and I never will be, but I am the leader. Yes, I like the Sleater-Kinney records, but where do they stand against Oasis? Radiohead? Janet Weiss from SK told me, 'Not everyone wants to be big like you. You're too ambitious - not all of us want world domination". I thought that was valid, but then I was told she comes from a wealthy family, so maybe she has the room to say that."

Good point.

I also don't agree that she's "stealing" her music. there's nothing new under the sun, and she's doing what all rockers do - being influenced by other sources. All those trendy garage bands that are considered brilliant now, are basically rip-off artists.

Not only that, but there's a certain irony and fun to it all. She loves to play with rock metaphors and there's an element of that in America's Sweetheart. She's laughing at it all. That's one of the things that's so appealing about what she does. It's all chaos, and sly winks at her own mythology, and rock in general. I find it really genius, myself. I personally think America's Sweetheart in it's own way, is as great as Live Through This. I love the humour. I love the sunny drug songs, I love the pain. I love the sound. I love the song where she sounds like a totally trashed, stoned, Janis Joplin. In the end, it just gets me going emotionally, it excites me, moves me, makes me think. That's what great rock is supposed to do. If that's what genius is, then for a lot of us, she's a genius.

Btw, if she's not getting huge record sales, that can be attributed to a lot of the crazy hatred, and sexist desire to question her talent among certain groups of people. The media isn't very friendly to Ms. Love and may have destroyed her career. Which is a fucking tragedy considering she creates such kick-ass art. I wanted at least eight more albums from her before she got too old to rock. Goddamnit.

So what generation is Courtney writing for? Live Through This was out in 1993 I think. If you take that time period then Richey Edwards is a far better lyricist when referring to internal demons and suchlike. It’s feasible (but very dull) to argue the case that she doesn’t have the monopoly on forceful female lyrics right now. I’m no huge fan of the Distillers but that record is better than America’s Sweetheart.

I agree that she has inspired women to get into rock and pick up a guitar or sing into a microphone but is her ego any messier than Madonna’s? For all the people saying that Courtney’s challenging, she’s never come up with anything as controversial as the videos for Like A Virgin, Papa Don’t Preach or the infamous Sex book. Miss Ciccone certainly came through against mass adversity. Is Courtney mainstream though? Doesn’t mainstream mean popular, something you don’t get indicated by record sales?

If the record buying public are sexist then explain away the undoubted dominance in sales terms of the likes of Norah Jones and Avril Lavigne.

But for all those 'naughty' videos and books, there's very little of substance. It's all gimmicks. Madonna is very good at pressing the right buttons, but does she really mean it? I don't think so, at least there is nothing to suggest that she really enjoys S&M etc.

Courtney lives the controversy and has done all her life. It's the truth of her words that make them so riveting and sometimes uncomfortable. She doesn't need cheap gimmicks like raunchy videos to piss people off (as must surely be obvious by now).

As far as sexism goes, Norah Jones is the epitome of "what every Western woman should be like" TM - quiet and not outspoken, writing unthreatening songs that can be consumed by children and grandparents alike. She doesn't challenge anything. Similarly, Avril fits in because she has, like Suicide Girls in her stead, cornered the market of the slightly discontent (i.e. most teenagers) while still reeling in everyone else with big pop hooks. Sexism doesn't work quite as simply as Girls vs Boys, it's more about differing opinions on how girls and boys should behave.

I entirely agree with your comments about the nature of sexism - I was, largely, trying to demonstrate a point with my previous post as opposed to defining anything and was evidently carried to sea on a raft of my own hyperbole.

Nevertheless - and as you point out - female musicians are and have been challenging preconceptions of what a "woman's role" constitutes (or, rather, whether a "woman's role" exists) for decades and have in the process sold far, far more records than Courtney Love will ever dream of. This doesn't automatically make them superior musicians or lyricists to Courtney (though, equally, they may well have been); it merely indicates, as one again you point out, that other factors are predominately in play in regard to her limited record sales.

Madonna is the most successful female pop star and wrote the book on manipulating the media. Whatever you think of her she has had a long career, produced a number of classic pop singles and always stayed contemporary.

Love on the otherhand, far from promoting her music through her actions is famous only for Cobain and her contorversial actions. Her music hasn't even registered on the widespread public's radar, she will soon be forgotten.

Tom, to suggest that Madonna has done nothing of substance and then hold Courtney up as someone who has is ridiculous, utterly ridiculous. When you say that she presses buttons but her dedication to it can be questioned, that’s definitely a case of the modern Madonna being assessed. Nobody would question the idea that her last album and supposed ‘anti-fame’s stance was a sack of cack but she has stood up to the media barrage in the past. You think Courtney gets victimized? Madonna’s had various religious elements calling for her head. She’s had tabloid after tabloid going after her. She came up through the maniacal 80’s, a time far more sexist than now. Yet still you’re off on this trip that somehow Courtney’s words are what makes her controversial! Who on earth finds them controversial? The average person in the street doesn’t, the rock pop kids don’t find them controversial, the censors don’t ban anything so they don’t. Where is this woolly crowd who are so offended by her words Tom? As for cheap gimmicks, one would say that certain performances with Hole turned into cheap gimmicks (or doesn’t live clothing removal count as cheap?)

Why is there still the idea that be challenging, you have to be massively shocking or loud or outrageous? To challenge something can be done in a quiet subversive way, for example many works by EM Forster dabbled with homosexuality and racial relationships without loudly shouting for the rooftops. Does everything have to challenge? No it doesn’t, cribbing Edwyn Collins for a moment, what’s the point of too many protest singers without enough protest songs? How exactly should a woman behave anyway? If I said that the likes of Puff Daddy were not good examples of how men should behave, would I get slapped with a racist ticket? Isn’t it somehow just as sexist and stupid to say that Norah Jones isn’t an example of how a woman should behave and that Courtney is a better example of how to behave? You can then take that argument and look at all manner of things, for instance the case of Muslim woman everywhere. Some Westerners can say that Muslim women are discriminated against. Yes, perhaps by ‘our’ standards they are but they can fire back and say that the blatant sexuality in the media is grossly discriminatory against women and wouldn’t happen in a Muslim community. By simply selling a shitload of records and sitting on top of the charts in America, Norah Jones does make a statement, particularly in a time when record sales are dominated by mainstream hip-hop, the majority of which does not espouse the virtues of female empowerment and dragging yourself back from wanton consumerism. Why is Courtney a better role model than Avril, a chick who grew up in a dipshit Canadian town, worked with a bunch of people to make a record and made it big? You can disregard her as being ‘slightly discontent’… does that mean we can do the same with Courtney? What makes Courtney’s pain more valid? Ah… does it all come back to Kurt?

I love the way you can make judgements about the majority of women who don’t like Courtney all being ingrained with society’s preconceptions. How patronizing do you want to be? My wife hates her music. Wanna tell her that she’s just society’s stooge and disrespecting her own gender? Clearly these women have been brainwashed into hating Courtney! Sorry man, that's just patronizing to the extreme and equivalent to saying that I loved the first Oasis album because I believed and sucked in the fashionable ladddism that was prevalent at the time.

The New Right is an intriguing one. You could make a definite case that the likes of Ann Coulter challenge a lot more than Courtney does. It's a little simplistic to say that the New Right is there trying to nail women's rights: it's more that it's trying to mould everything to a white Christian viewpoint. New Right is a poor label, new-skool Yank Christianity would be far better, given that many of the people and organisations behind the rise of the religious right date back decades. You won't get those in the New right disagreeing with the right for women to wear trousers or to vote but you will have mass arguments over abortion. Those with the power are not new, the basic theological influences behind their beliefs are not new, and certainly it doesn't feel like a complete shift in ideology in the way 'New Labour' was.

Damn, this thread's fun. Tom, we're going to argue this way and that without convincing anyone other than ourselves. I still like Courtney, I loved her Salon article yet she is entirely frustrating on the musical side of things. Hopefully one day she'll come up with some music that nails the record industry in the same way that article did. If you're ever in Toronto, I'll happily buy you a beer. :)

Oh, and I would also like to say, that Courtney's flashing-of-breasts exhibitionism is not just shock value. She expressing sexuality in the real world vs. the safe media forum that Madonna does. There's a rawness, and a real-word toughness to it. For women to express sexuality in that traditional rock-star way _is_ meaningful. And she actually expresses sexuality in bold ways all the time, not just in an artistic setting - that's just her, and that's what makes it authentic. She lives her art, or her art reflects her life. Whichever way you interpret it, it's what makes her raw and real vs. fabricated like so many other female expressions of sexuality.

Actually by any standards, and all standards most of male-dominated religions descriminate against women. And that includes Christianity. I'm not just pointing to Muslim women alone. I did just in this case, because that was the example you were using. Whether or not, some Muslim women (or fundamentalist Catholic or Baptist women) feel that they are descriminated against, or not, has nothing to do with it. I didn't think I was descriminated against, when I was a hardcore Catholic, because the people who controlled the propaganda were telling me what the fuck to think. They thought everything was just fine, and they told me to think that too. Fortunately, I live in a country where the government is not totally fascist yet, and I actually had the opportunity to go to my local library, and through pure luck, find a book that liberated my mind. And then make free choices based on my new, free ideas. I totally agree with you that Western culture is sexist in many ways. However, we have semi-religious freedom here (that admittedly is constantly under attack.) As a woman, I think I would much rather live here. I don't want to live in a country where people decide for me how to do something as simple as clothe myself in the morning. And that's not the least of their problems. Frankly, I'd rather be expoited by advertisers than religious tyrants. So I'm totally on board with you about jumping for joy if all religions died out tomorrow.

On a side note, there are many women who vote against thier own freedom and autonomy, btw. They think their own freedom and power is scary. A few thousand years of oppression will do that to you.

** "If Courtney reveals her breasts at a gig, then that’s an expression of raw sexuality So if Liam Gallagher ever gets his cock out on stage, will that also be an expression of raw sexuality? I wonder how many people out there would say that Courtney disrobing is empowering for her but would then go out and say that pornography should be banned as it brings women down?"**

I don't think that pornography should be banned (Though, violent pornography may be another matter. It's a difficult debate. But in the end, I think it's better to err on the side of freedom.) And I think men have as much a right to express sexuality as females do. In fact, I like my men a little wild. Remember that Courtney came from the Riot Grrl movement, which is very comfortable with raising sexuality as an issue. And yes, I do think that Courtney's breast baring is an expression of raw sexuality, in the way of Mick jagger or Morrison. Both were very sexual as live performers. It's all good rock n' roll fun. And revolutionary for females because, again, we're not allowed to do that in that rock-god context. It's not a spectator sport for her - she's enjoying it. It's done intelligently, she's commented on it intelligently. She knows what she's doing. It's an expression of her own rock power.

** "It's therefore disappointing when she has this big heralded comeback and it seems like some ghoulish shadow of rock. Intelligence is a key part of rock n' roll and America's Sweetheart appeared to be all glitz and glamour and dirt with very little muscle behind it." **

Well, I would have to disagree with you. I think America's Sweetheart is highly intelligent, funny and a dirty, hedonistic drug/rock album in the best way possible. I wasn't dissapointed. Maybe you just need to listen to it a bit more. Sometimes things that weren't hitting you at first, become apparent after a few listens. A lot of people felt that way about Cobain's In Utero, which many now believe is his best album. Keep trying it, maybe it will grow on ya'.

** "You say in your post that women are not in control of the propaganda that they receive from religion, society, life in general and various other comments and then say that Avril isn’t scary enough to invite any ‘real sexism’. Firstly, what the fuck is ‘real sexism’? Secondly, are you scary enough to invite real sexism? If you aren’t, does that mean any sexist attitude you face in life doesn’t matter? You seem very quick to denounce Avril as this nice chick who has everything easy which seems like dumping on your own gender. Courtney gets marketed, Avril gets marketed. They’re marketed in different ways but they both get it. I'm sure that many young girls have been tempted into picking up a guitar since Avril came through so is the end result all bad?" **

"Real sexism," as I meant it there, is a knee-jerk, extreme reaction to women who push the boundaries of female stereotypes. And yes, I do consider myself scary enough to invite real sexism. I live in an extremely conservative religious culture, and I've actually had people come by and shoot my fucking dog they hate me so much. I relate to Courtney because if someone could accuse me of being a murdering, manipulative, evil bitch, like they have her, I'm sure they'd take the opportunity. When strong women upset the status quo, most sexists don't take the direct attack route, they try to discredit you as a person, your talent, whatever... And if that doesn't work, if you won't be shut up, and shut away, they start getting more serious.

But anyway, you're right, maybe I was being a little to hard on little Avril. Images of female power in pop culture, are better than no images of female power in pop culture. I'd rather have her in the world, than not, let's put it that way. But I'd like it even more, if little girls were exposed to the thoughtful and deep feminism that Courtney is capable of delivering. Avril is a little fun, but she's a twinkie, and Courtney is the real meat and potatoes, so to speak.

"I agree with you that some women are scared of a women who seems powerful and focused. Seeing my female in-laws in rural Ontario is scary as fuck, the men drink beer and the women cook. That level of thinking is totally alien to me. Why fear a woman just because she’s focused on what she wants? Coming over to North American has shown me one thing: Europe is way more advanced in terms of the female place in society. She may have been Satan's very own henchlady but nobody can deny that Thatcher showed women how high they could go. The role of the woman in Canadian and US politics is still pretty low in my opinion, despite the likes of Condoleeza Rice."

Well, yeah, totally agreed. I mean, Thatcher was an anti-feminist and she did nothing for women. (I'd rather have a great, feminist man fighting for my freedom, than a right-wing woman fighting against it.) But I do agree about Europe being much more enlightened. The U.S. is a fucking right-wing mess, even when it's trying to be liberal. I've always thought Canada was better, but I haven't been there in a while, so maybe I'm wrong. I'm a Canadian living in the states, so maybe I'm just biased.

And you're right about another thing, this is a great fucking discussion. Queen Courtney has a way of inspiring that. Now go see if you can find any in depth discussion of feminism and politics on an Avril Lavigne board. ;)

** "All religions are heinous to my mind." **

Me too. They're a weapon, used by tyrants, to remove freedom from powerless people. All in the name of love, of course. And women in particular are always victims. As the great Elizabeth Cady Stanton said,

"I have endeavored to dissipate these religious superstitions from the minds of women....The less they believe, the better for their own happiness and development....For fifty years the women of this nation have tried to dam up this deadly stream that poisons all their lives, but thus far they have lacked the insight or courage to follow it back to it's source and there strike the blow at the fountain of all tyranny - religious superstition, priestly power, and the canon law."

"I speak of the Christian Church, Catholic and Protestant, of the priesthood, the bulls of it's popes, the decrees of it's councils, the articles and resolutions of it's general assemblies, presbyteries, synods, conferences, which, all summed up, compose the canon law, which has held Christendom [....] under it's paralyzing influence, molding civil law and social customs and plunging woman into absolute slavery. " --E.C. Stanton

The same can be said of any male-dominated religion, used as a weapon against women.

If anyone wants a copy of "Women Without Superstitions: No Gods, No Masters" by Annie Laurie Gaylor, btw, I will send it to you for free. You can email and/or send comments to me at heidihopippi@yahoo.com

** " However I wonder if they look at Western women and what they consider to be their freedom and it turns them off voting for greater freedom." **

I think they're probably voting the way they're brainwashed to vote. You don't jump from hundreds of years of oppression, right into being mentally liberated, or educated enough, to make informed decisions on your own behalf. You have to liberate your mind, before you can liberate your reality. When the vote was first won for women here in America, it was pretty much expected that women would vote the way their husbands wanted them to vote. Which turned out to be true, at first. But we grew from there.

I agree the west can be high-and-mighty, self-righteous bullies and tyrants. However, there is this tendency to portray all these countries that western super-powers pick on, as these virtuous victims, which is not the case. Again, I'd rather live in a capitalist country and be free enough to choose and reject what I want to, than live in country where religious dogma is forced on people. I know religion too well, and it scares me like nothing else does. Religion is the perfect propaganda tool, esp. to use against women. If women are voting against their own freedom based on religious propaganda, then that's a fucking tragedy. And I'd just like to say that there are really horrible crimes committed against women by the government in Afghanistan. I'm not on board about that PC idea that Afghanistan is some innocent victim of US propaganda. Victims maybe, but not innocent. All governments are corrupt in one way or another. We can be evil in Western countries, but last time I checked, we don't actually believe that men own women here, and we can have sex with who we want without getting shot in the fucking head for it. And we're somewhat free to make our own choices about religion. Let's not idealize this culture.

** " Religion is a great controller but the media and political/social structures aren’t far behind in the way that it can influence people in a negative manner. Capitalism and commercialism is responsible for a hell of a lot of discrimination and degradation in my book." **

Maybe, but what it comes down to, is regardless of capitalist and commercial forces at work, I can go out tomorrow and choose who to make love to, what ideas to put in my brain (for the most part) express myself openly, choose my own spirituality, experiment with different ideas and ways of living. Sort of. I mean, it's not perfect, but at least we have a semblance of a democracy. I always argue with the punk-purists I know, that are always shaking their fists at our Eeeevil Capitalist country, to try living in some of these shit-hole countries with alternative governments for a while and see how they like it. It's not pretty. I'd rather have Walmart than Taliban, I really would.

I do agree about the media, though. Media brainwashing can be as big of a force, as religious brainwashing. Which is why I'm always happy when an artist with some sort of positive, political idea infiltrates the mainstream. Like the Distillers, for instance. Do you know what it means for little girls to have a band that actually wrote a song about Anthony and Stanton, infiltrate the mainstream? It's like a revolution. I can just see the guys at MTV looking over a Distiller song and going "Who the hell is Elizabeth Cady Stanton? Heh heh. It's great. You go, you pop-punk band, you.

** " At the same time, the strains of religion that perpetuate hideous crimes such as clitoral removal need to be attacked and rightly so." **

Well, no fucking kidding. It's women who do that, btw. Men use women in these cultures to hurt themselves and other women. What was it that Cobain said in Insecticide liner notes? "My wife challenges injustice and the reason her character has been so severely attacked is because she chooses not to function the way the white corporate man insists. His rules for women involve her being submissive, quiet, and non-challenging. When she doesn't follow his rules, the threatened man (who, incidentally, owns an army of devoted traitor women) gets scared."

_Who incidentally owns an army of devoted traitor women._ That boy had a powerful mind. He was pretty insightful for someone coming out of an isolated, right-wing environment. Actually I think he was a better feminist than Courtney. He was smart and feeling his feminism in his heart, and I love him for it.

** "I’m giggling over your comments about Jim Morrison for two reasons:" **

Well, sure. I mean, I'm not a huge Doors/Morrison fan, but I feel the need to compare Courtney to aging/dead rockers, because I think there's no one there today, with that iconic, rock-star mythology that she has. When I think of Courtney, I think of the huge rock icons. If life were fair, she'd be given that respect, is all I can say about it. Maybe she will be, after she dies.

** "I agree that Courtney does express herself sexually in a positive way, but it’s certainly not always the case. In the post-Cobain era, it seemed to disappear and lose focus, became more about shocking show-womanship rather than female empowerment and freedom of expression."

Yeah, but shocking showmanship is all part of that classic rock n' roll vibe, man. I mean, to a large extent that's part of the job description. Maybe if that was all it was about, it would lose it's appeal, though - but fortunately it's not.

** I tell ya, someone should lock her in a room with as much cheap speed as she needs and a word processor and get a book out of her, it’d turn out to be a riveting read" **

She's apparently publishing her diaries, so we should get a chance to do just that. I agree, Courtney can be so embarrassing sometimes, and yet so brilliant. I hope people don't just use the embarrassing crap to nail her, though. American culture seems hell-bent on doing that and it disappoints me, because there's so much more to her than that.

** "I’ve still got my copy of America’s Sweetheart and it hasn’t grown on me. It’s not better than Live Through This, it’s not terrible but it’s not great." **

Well, Ok, each to his own, I guess. My impression is, it's not as consistently brilliant as Live Through This, which was a flawless album, but it touches on that greatness here and there. I think, But Julian... is a very strong track, Sunset Strip is strong lyrically, the whole thing, except Zeplin song, sounds great to me. Some people say that Courtney shouldn't have attempted ballads. I too, was kind of horrified, when I heard Linda Perry was on board. But it's all good, she's not doing an Aguilera. Courtney brings much more to that whole thing. So I liked the ballads. The lyrics were a bit spottier than is normal for Courtney - the hillbilly heroine must have been really kicking in when she wrote that "coochie" line. But all in all, I'm really happy with my Courtney fix.

I agree with ya' that In Utero is a better album. Nevermind was brilliant, too, I don't think Cobain was really capable of putting out anything bad. But In Utero is better, there's no question in my mind.

** "I sympathise with you living in your conservative religious culture. It’s odd how many times guns and violence get mentioned by people who live in conservative religious environments… I’m guessing that the NRA is welcome in your town." **

The people here are fucking crazy. Ever see American History X? You know that scene in the dining room where Norton freaks out over his racist bullshit and attacks his sister? Well, I know people like that, (except usually more sexist than racist.) In fact, I've experienced something eerily like that. Another dog story: My brother-in-law's redneck family named their dog Nigger and then shot it one day, when it was irritating them, or something. The liberal people I talk to online, think I'm bullshitting when I tell them that story. It seems like such a parody of a redneck asshole, but it's an actual true story. And people like that are much more common than liberals in their comfy, big-city communities would like to believe. Just look at the last U.S. elections. On the voting map, it was mostly concentrated little pockets in big cities who were winning Democratic states. You know all those rural communities that were voting Republican? That's the heart of the conservative voting public, those are the people I know, and it's pretty widespread. And pretty scary.

** "I’m not sure that Thatcher was anti-feminist as even a single-minded master of obstinacy as her would recognize the sacrifice others made in the past that enabled her to climb to the top echelon of British political power. Indeed, there’s a great deal that points to her reign being a perfect example of what was mentioned earlier with regard to powerful women being feared." **

I don't fear powerful women, I fear powerful women who fuck over powerless women to get and keep their positions of power. Thatcher was the political equivalent of those women that cut their daughter's clits.

** "I get the impression that many liberal leaning female writers find it hard/impossible to write much positive about her because of her policies an d therefore won’t write anything positive about having a woman running Britain." **

It's because we're not gullible. Like Tom pointed out, it's not about girls against boys, it's about gender-freedom and equality vs. using gender as a way to restrict people's rights. It would be cool to have a woman president, only if she was acting on women's behalf. Not if she was a tool for male-supremacy. Again, Cobain understood that concept. Thatcher is a "devoted traitor woman." Any strength she has as a woman, is cancelled out in my mind, by her anti-woman policies and nutty gender beliefs.

** "Can you tell that I really want to move back to England? " **

I'd like to visit, myself. England is cool beyond measure in a lot of ways. I know what it's like to be homesick. It's too bad you're not having a good time in Canada, though. It depends where you go, I guess, but I'd like to think my country treats people visitors than that. Canadians are usually pretty laid back. It's beautiful, too, maybe you can check out some of the perks to help your homesickness. Check out a band called Propagandhi whle you're up there. They're pretty fun.

** "Queen Courtney would be a great thing. Ley Charles abdicate, get Courtney on the throne. Oh wait, we've already had one media savvy blonde in the Royal Family... ;) **

Heh. :) Courtney would turn any country into fucking chaos in no time flat. Maybe a fun thing for a while. ;)

** "PS: I went to a couple of Avril positive boards and asked about their feelings on feminism in the post 9/11 religious inflected America. They told me to fuck off and continued talking about how much they wanted to shag that guy from the Darkness... " **

I figured.... ;)

This is the longest post in the history of mankind.

Peace and noise....

i agree with the compliments on the album but grunge is dead sweetheart, it was never alive it was sumthing MTV made up.

courtney does a lot of talking and my expectations were raised! i'm a fan, i go through so much shit 4 being just that and hoped the album would safe guard me from other infuriating assaults. her vocals are dire on the album, it shows glimpses of brilliance but overall it's really messy. 'uncool', 'almost golden' are pretty horrible and 'sunset strip' would have been great if half of it was cut. overall its an unfocused offering. courtney has sold her soul. all we get on that album is the tabloid caricature.

Furry

Watch it with that talk about Canada and the US being backward ya wanker.

Have you ever been to Canada? I think not.

You cannot compare the two - it's like saying The La's and Celebrity Skin are the two best albums ever!

Any comparison between Courtney Love and Lee Mavers is a fucking joke.
The only reason she is even in the public eye anymore is because she was married to cobain.
She isn't a musician or a songwriter - she is a personality.

The La's "The La's" is one of the best albums ever put out by any band.
Hole's output is generic shite that will be easily forgotten. Love uses her husband's genius
and money to live as an 'artist'. Courtney Love is a talentless hack (spit sound).

Maybe I should flash my cock in your face then?

Would that be as meaningful to you?

What if i flashed my arsehole?

It's sexual - I agree - but let's not make this into something it's not. It doesn't represent anything other than shock value, sexuality and man-slut wannabee.