Time For Change tonight: free guestlist

I would be if i was in the capital. Darren Haymnen (god) and Robyn Hitchcock at the same gig....OMG OMG!

shouldn't you be focussing your attention elsewhere Mr Bush?

"I suppose you won't acknowledge the fact that Bush is now way higher than Kerry in opinion polls in the U.S. since this debate. No doubt Michael Moore hasn't mentioned this so you won't hear about it."

Well... let's look at those polls.
Before the debate CNN/USA/Gallup all had Bush well ahead with his rating in the high 50s while Kerry languished in the low 40s. After the debate Bush fell to 49% and Kerry climbed to 47%.

CBS/NY Times had a similar picture, with Bush about 10 points ahead. After the debate their pollsters found both men level on 47%.

Everything else appears to have been quite calmly and properly said by ice cream man so, back to the music...

Well said, that man.

Japan, you clearly are a moron with little or no grasp of the way the world works, nor can you articulate your ideas.

*feels righteous* :)

oooh, let's hope so. ;)

You're right though I should have justified the little swipe about bush not understanding democracy. I was refering to the many undemocratic provisions he slipped in after 9/11 in the PATRIOT act (can provide more details if you actually give a shit), his imprisonment and torture of suspected terrorists without trial, his many breaches of international law, the geneva convention etc.

Essentially - you CANNOT take the moral high ground about freedom, democracy and law elsewhere unless you act in a free democratic and lawful way in your own country and in your dealings with others. This means giving people proper trials, not torturing people, not breaking international law, etc.

Shame on you Durutti, you forgot to tell Japan he's a twat for picking up on other's spelling mistakes ('Loosing') and then spelling Zimbabwe incorrectly four times. Good points otherwise though.

Just discovered this delightful and insightful thread so I'll add me two penneth:

On the war: Getting rid of Sadaam Hussein was undoubtably a good thing, but the more I think about it it's the ONLY good thing that has come from the whole debacle. And I honestly don't know whether Iraq (and the world at large) might have been better off if he was still running the show there.

Thinking about it, just what has replaced his tyranny? Some things I can think of are:

1.More tyranny under the rouse of democracy, granted a different and arguably 'better' form of tyranny, but tyranny is still tyranny.

2.Chaos on the streets of Bagdad, Basra and other parts of the Arab world.

3. Lots of Good and Evil people royally pissed off about the whole thing. With lots of Evil people plotting God knows what as a result.

4. Cynical money making opportunities for already rich westerners (not just with oil, but with other things, in particular Construction, too).

5. Subsequent kidnappings and inhumane killings of said money motivated opportunist westerners that the already rich media hi-jack for their own financially motivated reasons.

6. Everyone getting royally pissed off with a political party that is actually quite good overall- war aside- and our country moving dangerously close to a Lib/Lab coallition government after the next election (it will happen kidz, I am a soothsayer) and the ensuing chaos that it'll bring.

7. Loads of politically minded bright- if misguided- young people joining evil political parties like the BNP and particularly the Conservative party (just watch their conference on TV for evidence) as well as increased membership and public appreciation for mickey mouse parties like the Liberal Democrats, SWP, Plaid Cymru, SNP and UKIP. This happens because the kidz are being taught to hate Labour by every mode of influence out there (regardless of whether that influence is left, right or middle).

8. Neglect of other equally or more important political, national, international and social issues by the political media, governments and electorates alike.

All these things considered, from a utilitarian point of view, if Sadam was still in charge of Iraq and there was no war in the first place, I'm inclined to think that maybe things'd be a lot better for a lot more people out there (even if it meant that the people of Iraq were still enduring his evil).

I really must say though, even though that Japan guy is evidently a right wing crotch pheasant, he had one amazingly excellent point:

Everyone seems to have a whole lotta political passion and knowledge and obviously a lotta people are genuinely concerned for the country and the world at large, yet, what the fuck is everyone doing about it?????

Going on camp student or far-left protests, no matter how good the intensions are, won't achieve anything good or worthwhile.

Voting against Labour in any given election or abstaining from voting alltogether won't achieve anything good or worthwhile (and at the moment it's also definitely debatable whether voting FOR Labour will achieve anything good or worthwhile).

I implore everyone of the left-wing ilk with passion and a political mind to join the Labour party, seek political office and reclaim what is a historically marvellous institution back from the Fools and Tories who now control it (having had the enlightening experience of meeting Tony Blair recently I am now of the opinion that he is both a Fool and a Tory- but not an evil person).

Being a mere Armchair Socialist will achieve nothing good or worthwhile. Becoming a truly Socialist and benevolent Labour politician will.

And it's easier than you think:

I myself ran for council as the official Labour candidate for my home district in June and polled 1913 votes. I didn't get elected though, cos just over 2000 or so other people voted for the same tired, old, famously incompetent Lib Dem candidate instead, purely as a gesture against Blair and the war.

Next election time I will stand again and hopefully things'll turn out different. Even if they don't, I WILL keep on trying.

If you've got a beef with the government and politics in general and you despise social injustice THEN FOR FUCK'S SAKE GET UP OF YOUR FAT ARSE AND DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT! Don't just sound off articulately and insightfully on internet messageboards! Actions speak louder than words.

People are sufferring all around us and are in need of our help. We might not be able to stop it all but maybe we can stop some of it (or even most of it). I'm game for a fight (against social injustice) are you?

Rant Dunn

Tony Benn couldn't win an election, true. But somebody Left of Blair but Right of Benn COULD. Definitely.

"but you're asking me to fall back in love with the past ideology of a party that has abandoned it in favour of cheap political points. and that puts me in an impossible position.. "

That is the precise gargantuan error that a student of politics will always make. Mistaking the nature of the executive for the nature of the party as a whole. I've met dozens of MPs and hundreds of grassroots party members and believe me, "past ideogies" as you so misguidedly put it, are alive and well in the Labour party and clost to a massive ejaculation of a comeback.

But then, as an outsider and theoritician, not directly involved, you can't be expected to know that, "Mere Prattle not Practice" in the words of Shakespeare's Iago (and, again, the irony of me quoting a dedicated follower of Machiavelli isn't lost on me, but the quote is more than pertinent).

You should really shed your naive and unfounded prejudices they so don't suit someone so otherwise erudite...

"I DO understand that the grassroots of a party is different from those controlling it"

That's fine then, only I saw no evidence of it until your most recent post.

You are entirely right, of course, the Labour Left is in an impossible situation at the mo, rocking the boat for all the good it'd do, may also end up in disaster. And being as though things ain't completely evil in the executive as yet and the election has't happenned yet, people are in limbo and are waiting to see exactly what it is that unfolds in the ensuing 24 months.

"To use your own words, often 'prattle' leads to 'practice.' A guy called Antony Giddens writes a few books advocating a new form of politics called the "Third Way," and in a few years a young leader of the opposition changes the name of his party and uses this theory as the basis on which he wants to govern. A guy called Francis Fukuyama writes a book advocating the spread of "American values" across the globe. A few years later it gets siezed upon by some neo-con intellectuals as the basis to bomb the fuck out of the Middle East."

That I will concede, but in this day and age people who read 'proper' books are few and far between and great political commentary is as sparse as fit birds at an all boys public school. If you feel you can write an insightful book on political theory that loads of people can read (eg a more erudite, pragmatic version of stupid white men, dude where's my country etc) then go ahead and do it :)

That is an ENTIRELY worthwhile Socialist cause, one I wouldn't be capable of myself having only a modest university education in a subject other than politics. But for God's sake don't make it overly esoteric, make it wholly accessible! Make it tie in with the zeitgeist and make people WANT to read it!

"I do really admire your commitment though - it can't be easy being a Labour activist at the moment"

Thank you for your empathy. You are again right. On a few occassions I've almost had to do the whole Saint Peter thing and distance myself from the thing I love and believe in, cos in some environments folk just wouldn't understand- given what they read in the shitty press- and I just ain't spoilin' for an argument. That is a large part of my reason for involvement though, I want to make the Labour party something that present generations are proud to be associated with.

When I was out doorstep campaigning I spoke to a whole lot of old people, and the romance and pride they attribute to the Labour party as a virtuous organisation is quite overwhelming. I want it to be that way once again and always and I'll do whatever it takes to make it happen....