DiS @ Careless Talk: Fanzine Debate.
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End Of The Road 2007: the DiS review
Drowned in Sound have been invited to be a part of the following debate, arranged by Careless Talk Costs Lives. Here's the blurb from Mr.True and co...
On: February 8th 2003.
@: The ICA, London. ica.org.uk
Careless Talk Costs Lives magazine has been hailed as the saviour of the music press, taking a pride in what it does - both in words and photography.
With the traditional music press dying over the past few years, a new music journalism has grown up - raw, reflexive, unafraid.
Today's debate will ask whether the way forward for the music press is to be found in what used to be termed "fanzine culture" that is, enthusiasts and mavericks creating new outlets for new writing because they have no choice?
Panel will consist of Careless Talk editorial staff:
Everett True: ex-Assistant Editor of Melody Maker, ex-Editor of VOX (also reknown for being the guy who introduced England to Nirvana)
Stevie Chick: Evening Standard, Times, Kerrang writer .
Steve Gullick: Photographer. Books include Pop Book Number 1, Showtime and Nirvana.
Playing Live after the talk: Chikinki, Mooz, The Playwrights and Gravehurst from Sink and Stove Records, Bristol.
Price: £4, £3 CONCS, £2 MEMS. Entry to both the talk and tonight's Sink and Stove Records night £7, £6 concs, £5 mems.
Everett True
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DiS @ Careless Talk: Fanzine Debate.
Oh, fucking PLEASE... give me a motherfucking break.
I don't know what to think about this. CTCL back on their "ooh, look we're such outsiders" co-opting fanzine culture. Everett True has made a living and bought a house on the profits of bringing underground culture to mainstread society.
Fair enough, mainstream society needs to be exposed to underground culture. But maybe I'd have more respect if they bothered to spend their money on paying their writers instead of having nice paper. It starts to feel like exploitation.
And CTCL is so quick to co-opt fanzine culture but won't give anything back. I covered a festival for both DiS and CTCL, got unlimited words here and 500 words in CTCL. I asked "Can we please put a link to the more in-depth review on DiS?" Answer: NO.
I write for both these organs, yet I find them both incredibly frustrating in different ways. CTCL is negating any positive effect they might be having with their sanctimonious "Saviour Of The Music Press" posturing. Fuck you. Why save something that doesn't need saving?
Am I going to this night? Probably not. Why: BECAUSE I CANNOT AFFORD TO. I don't get paid anything for any of my writing. Yet they expect me to pay for the privilege of being told what to think. They expect me to pay for "experts" to digest and explain back to me the very culture that me and a gang of like-minded people are too busy creating.
CTCL isn't the future of the music press. You're looking at the future here, and panel discussions by so-called "experts" don't have a place in that future. Take charge of your own culture, go discuss it on ILM. Or here.
(I'm probably going to be sacked from both magazines for writing this, but fuck it, who cares? If I haven't been sacked for being a complaining whinger yet, I never will be.)
I don't know what to think about this. CTCL back on their "ooh, look we're such outsiders" co-opting fanzine culture. Everett True has made a living and bought a house on the profits of bringing underground culture to mainstread society.
Fair enough, mainstream society needs to be exposed to underground culture. But maybe I'd have more respect if they bothered to spend their money on paying their writers instead of having nice paper. It starts to feel like exploitation.
And CTCL is so quick to co-opt fanzine culture but won't give anything back. I covered a festival for both DiS and CTCL, got unlimited words here and 500 words in CTCL. I asked "Can we please put a link to the more in-depth review on DiS?" Answer: NO.
I write for both these organs, yet I find them both incredibly frustrating in different ways. CTCL is negating any positive effect they might be having with their sanctimonious "Saviour Of The Music Press" posturing. Fuck you. Why save something that doesn't need saving?
Am I going to this night? Probably not. Why: BECAUSE I CANNOT AFFORD TO. I don't get paid anything for any of my writing. Yet they expect me to pay for the privilege of being told what to think. They expect me to pay for "experts" to digest and explain back to me the very culture that me and a gang of like-minded people are too busy creating.
CTCL isn't the future of the music press. You're looking at the future here, and panel discussions by so-called "experts" don't have a place in that future. Take charge of your own culture, go discuss it on ILM. Or here.
(I'm probably going to be sacked from both magazines for writing this, but fuck it, who cares? If I haven't been sacked for being a complaining whinger yet, I never will be.)
Re: DiS @ Careless Talk: Fanzine Debate.
Replying to my own message...
If I hate it so much, if I really think that is represents everything that I hate about "Indie Culture" and the music press, why do I keep going back?
-because I feel that if I don't say some things, no one else will
-because of every time I get a message from a musician who says "THANK YOU for writing about my band, thank you for GETTING IT"
-because I'm egotistical and I like seeing my ranting in print.
I don't belong, I don't expect to belong and I don't even really *want* to belong to CTCL Hivemind. So why does it still upset me?
I really am talking to myself in public again, and I should stop that...
If I hate it so much, if I really think that is represents everything that I hate about "Indie Culture" and the music press, why do I keep going back?
-because I feel that if I don't say some things, no one else will
-because of every time I get a message from a musician who says "THANK YOU for writing about my band, thank you for GETTING IT"
-because I'm egotistical and I like seeing my ranting in print.
I don't belong, I don't expect to belong and I don't even really *want* to belong to CTCL Hivemind. So why does it still upset me?
I really am talking to myself in public again, and I should stop that...
Re: DiS @ Careless Talk: Fanzine Debate.
Right on missy! I ain't going to sack you, don't be silly... i only sack immature weedy little personalityless balding folks on their way to MOR-heaven, via totally missing the point about this site..
Anyway, yes, i totally see your point. But, then again, I don't think the point of this event is for the people "get it" already. I guess it's easily seen as some kinda pr-stunt. But it's also a chance for a central pole for people to swing around. So, yeah, it won't revolutionise the world hearing a bunch of "experts". The point is to bring a few people together and to enter into some kinda discourse which might help things make sense and hopefully, kick a few peoples asses into doing similar things. It's not hard. I just wanna sit there and proove just how easy it is, if you believe in something, bring the right people together.
And anyway, we've only just begun with dis and the problems of not getting paid, someday, will change.
I'm not sure if i got your point totally tho.
Sean
Anyway, yes, i totally see your point. But, then again, I don't think the point of this event is for the people "get it" already. I guess it's easily seen as some kinda pr-stunt. But it's also a chance for a central pole for people to swing around. So, yeah, it won't revolutionise the world hearing a bunch of "experts". The point is to bring a few people together and to enter into some kinda discourse which might help things make sense and hopefully, kick a few peoples asses into doing similar things. It's not hard. I just wanna sit there and proove just how easy it is, if you believe in something, bring the right people together.
And anyway, we've only just begun with dis and the problems of not getting paid, someday, will change.
I'm not sure if i got your point totally tho.
Sean
Re: DiS @ Careless Talk: Fanzine Debate.
Everett True really does need to wake up and smell his own shit.
Fair enough I understand wanting to print on that nice little paper right, but instead of the money he spends so he can write 250 words on 'How I got pissed in New York, was idolised by members of 'cool' bands and didn't see any shows at a so called 'music festival'' he could use it to pay people for their thoughtful reviews and rants.
I don't care if he's talking at some godawful panel at the ICA, the 'end' of the music press was never going to be acheived through his little ego trip of a paper, let alone with the fact that IPC sacked him for being such an arrogant tosspot .
And how long can he still hold onto the fact that he saw Nirvana first and some smacked up Seattle 'scenesters' put up with him for a while?
Fair enough I understand wanting to print on that nice little paper right, but instead of the money he spends so he can write 250 words on 'How I got pissed in New York, was idolised by members of 'cool' bands and didn't see any shows at a so called 'music festival'' he could use it to pay people for their thoughtful reviews and rants.
I don't care if he's talking at some godawful panel at the ICA, the 'end' of the music press was never going to be acheived through his little ego trip of a paper, let alone with the fact that IPC sacked him for being such an arrogant tosspot .
And how long can he still hold onto the fact that he saw Nirvana first and some smacked up Seattle 'scenesters' put up with him for a while?
Re: DiS @ Careless Talk: Fanzine Debate.
FWIW, Sean, my rant about not getting paid was not directed at DiS, it was directed at CTCL. I was angry because ET once attacked a friend of mine who writes for the NME saying "Oh, I know what you get paid for each word writing for that trash" and I wanted to chime in "And I know what CTCL get paid per word: NOTHING."
I'm not annoyed by the idea of CTCL having a fanzine convention so much as the idea of them charging money to get in. The joy of fanzine culture, and its direct descendent, internet music culture is that it REFUSES to accept "experts" telling them what to think. A teenager from Norfolk has the same weight of opinion as The Wire. This is a beautiful thing.
Setting up a panel of experts contradicts this very ethos.
Anyway, I'm bitter cause I'm surfing a deadline for my next CTCL column and cannot express the things that I want to say...
I'm not annoyed by the idea of CTCL having a fanzine convention so much as the idea of them charging money to get in. The joy of fanzine culture, and its direct descendent, internet music culture is that it REFUSES to accept "experts" telling them what to think. A teenager from Norfolk has the same weight of opinion as The Wire. This is a beautiful thing.
Setting up a panel of experts contradicts this very ethos.
Anyway, I'm bitter cause I'm surfing a deadline for my next CTCL column and cannot express the things that I want to say...
Re: DiS @ Careless Talk: Fanzine Debate.
It's a real shame they can't add the url where you can read more of your reviews on here. Not as if it takes up a lot of room... tho i can always buy an advert (which aint cheap!).
Ho hum. Not dissing it. Tis my favourite magazine (not that, that says a lot about the other magazines)
And Jerry slagged off Oceansize?! Hmph.
Sean
Ho hum. Not dissing it. Tis my favourite magazine (not that, that says a lot about the other magazines)
And Jerry slagged off Oceansize?! Hmph.
Sean
Re: DiS @ Careless Talk: Fanzine Debate.
CTCL charge an absolute fucking fortune to advertise in their magazine. For a quarter page it's about £300, yeah fuck the music press but we'll fuck small labels who want to sell a product.
That said, there's a lot of great stuff in CTCL and I love the illustrations. Can't say I like your articles very much Fiona, sorry. Do you hate me for this?
That said, there's a lot of great stuff in CTCL and I love the illustrations. Can't say I like your articles very much Fiona, sorry. Do you hate me for this?
Re: DiS @ Careless Talk: Fanzine Debate.
I don't actually give a shit.
Whenever anybody tells me I'm rubbish, I tend to sympathise with them, cause I think they're right.
But then again, I think there's a lot of shit in CTCL, so if you enjoy the things that I hate, I don't *want* you to like my writing. DiS has been getting the better bits of my writing lately anyway.
I should just stop writing entirely but then I'd go out of my mind with boredom.
Whenever anybody tells me I'm rubbish, I tend to sympathise with them, cause I think they're right.
But then again, I think there's a lot of shit in CTCL, so if you enjoy the things that I hate, I don't *want* you to like my writing. DiS has been getting the better bits of my writing lately anyway.
I should just stop writing entirely but then I'd go out of my mind with boredom.
Re: DiS @ Careless Talk: Fanzine Debate.
Oh, I don't like everything in CTCL. Infact I hate quite a lot, just saying there's some nice work in there.
Yip.
You're an angry woman.
Yip.
You're an angry woman.
Re: DiS @ Careless Talk: Fanzine Debate.
yes I am. Though more bitter than angry. Should I start writing plays instead? I quite fancy being on radio 4...
Re: DiS @ Careless Talk: Fanzine Debate.
Go for it.
Re: DiS @ Careless Talk: Fanzine Debate.
Everett didn't introduce Nirvana to the UK, The first person on the case was John Robb... what ET did was become their subsequently champion. The good thing about his writing is that he loves bands that have a passion about them, the bad thing is that he can glorify himself a little too much (this was a running theme on th Melody Maker letters page when he sed to write for them). I would wish that there were more genuinely passionate writers around in the mainstream press, and ET certainly was/is one of those, but we should stop short of hero worship and just get on with making DiS BETTER than CTCL! ... Nothing like a bit of competition!
Re: DiS @ Careless Talk: Fanzine Debate.
Just testing to see if I've remembered my username... Sorry, I'll get to the point in a minute...
Re: DiS @ Careless Talk: Fanzine Debate.
Never had much time for more than a handful of any one journalist's words and that's only if their very funny, acutely observed or strike an unfathomable chord with me.
From what I remember of ET's writing in Melody Maker, I didn't get much out of it. It just brings to mind a street drunk who shouts you incoherently and the only reason you know they're abusing and cussing you because they're spitting and their face is going red.
If you expect to get paid for writing about music, Fiona, you can't expect to be taken seriously when you criticise ET (what a great anacronym) for buying a house with the money he made writing about music.
I had some other points to make, i think, but the left side of my face is swelling up and this keyboard is shote.
by the way, i love DiS but have never experienced CTCL. Although, both sound like nasy nitrogenous fertilisers.
From what I remember of ET's writing in Melody Maker, I didn't get much out of it. It just brings to mind a street drunk who shouts you incoherently and the only reason you know they're abusing and cussing you because they're spitting and their face is going red.
If you expect to get paid for writing about music, Fiona, you can't expect to be taken seriously when you criticise ET (what a great anacronym) for buying a house with the money he made writing about music.
I had some other points to make, i think, but the left side of my face is swelling up and this keyboard is shote.
by the way, i love DiS but have never experienced CTCL. Although, both sound like nasy nitrogenous fertilisers.
Re: DiS @ Careless Talk: Fanzine Debate.
"fiona", why do you think either publication should print your words? (and i'm sure the reason they're charging is because the ICA doesn't come for free. yes, yes, it could be somewhere else, but you'd think the "convention" was arranged after the gig) (and personally i think the ctcl talks are fucking awful self-indulgent inarticulate amateurism that do nothing but negate the power of the mag, which is definitely getting better by the issue despite - as one of the editors posted on ilm - no one at all, from editor to business people to photographers to writers, making a penny from it.)
it's not some stupid conspiracy against your inability to get paid work. but that's fine, you're only like 19 aren't you? you've got plenty of time to get into the "profession", god help you if you do.
it's not some stupid conspiracy against your inability to get paid work. but that's fine, you're only like 19 aren't you? you've got plenty of time to get into the "profession", god help you if you do.
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