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Bread And Circuses : The Not-So-Beautiful-Game

With the arrival of Football World cup, its time to cast our eye over what exactly it all means. Especially after the previous article in this section!.

Despite the millions of the flags waved and however pints of beer are drunk, it ultimately means Nothing .Do you really think that in the grand scheme of the world, how far England gets in this World Cup or not makes any bloody difference, when we're about to have a nuclear war in the far east? I can see the headlines of the Sun right now – on the frontpage it’ll say “BECKHAM SCORES” and in small print on page 5, “Nuclear war in Pakistan, 12 million dead”.

Don’t agree? Read on, and then tell me what you think. That’s what the comments section is there for. Now that might be a controversial statement, but lets take this in the context of something Karl Marx once said ; ”Religion is the Opiate of the Masses”. If you take the concept of Opiate for the Masses as being a drug which makes people conform to a form of behaviour or lifestyle, then given that far less than 10% of the UK population attend church every weekend, there must be something else taking up their energy. Doesn’t sport, and football in particular, follow the exact description of an activity that makes people conform to a form or behaviour of lifestyle? One whereby vast amounts of money and adulation are involved, - in overpriced shirt merchandising, in overpriced tickets, in pay-per-view matches, and – just like in religions - in worshipping idols from afar? Whereas we used to have a spiritual leader such as Christ to aspire to, now we have Becks; a man so well known, he doesn’t even need a proper name. Anyone with a dream of succeeding can attain the same goals as Becks, no matter how poorly educated. How many of us grow up wanting to be famous footballers?

In 1967, New York Times columnist Russell Baker wrote ”It is sport that is the opiate of the masses” , a view which is controversial, unpopular, but indubitably, based in observation - so much so that the movie Rollerball followed a few years later, whereby the mass population are placated and distracted from questioning who is really pulling the strings (in this case, major corporations) of their lives by a simple game. It seems oddly prophetic now , because nowadays, in football, thousands and thousands of people go to stadiums to express their support to a group of physically superior people , flanked by viewscreens, loudspeakers; all the attention of the thousands of people focused on ONE person. And this is recorded, broadcast to millions around the country. It doesn’t so much matter what the event is as such, but the adulation, the worship, the idea of a morally superior person leading us into competition, into victory is an essentially fascistic ideal.

That person could be a sports personality – or it could just as much be a despot. The above description fits a world cup match as much as it does Hitler’s 1938 Hamburg Rallies – the parallels are uncanny. It’s the ugly face of nationalism again, disguised under sport, all polished under a veneer of ‘sport’ , national pride and bullshit that most football supporters would rather blindly believe than question; as can be seen from the increased and continual influence and infiltration of hooligan gangs (like in Oldham, which was reported here) by far-right nationalist extremists such as Combat 18, who prey on these feeling of community and division to stir up racial hatred and violence. Such acts are only the extreme edge of the undercurrent of nationalism and xenophobia that pits one nation against another in the name of a so-called “Beautiful game”. No wonder that popular pro-footie anthem "Three Lions" includes a line about being "ready for war"(though excised from the recorded version at the FIFA's insistence, thats the original lyric@: and how Skinner sang it on Top of the Pops).And if you want more detail on Football hooliganism and its links to right-wing fascism, you might want to look here).

However, in terms of nationalism, The World cup is no different. Millions of people around the country, and around the globe, wave their national flags and cheer as we once again prove our national superiority over others, much as they would on VE day, or when a jubilee celebrates 50 years of national oppression by some doddering old pensioner. Nowadays we don’t do it on the battlefield, we do it on the sports field. We win our wars with footballs, not fireballs ; Where artificial divisions between nations and towns are exploited, to stir up rivalry, to keep those predisposed to violence from directing these urges into anti-capitalism, but into skirmishes whereby the ruling classes and capitalist interests are not in harms way. For one example, Bangor has two seperate home stands: they have to seperate the fans from holyhead and Bangor apart becuase otherwise fans of the same team would be fighting on the terraces amongst each other. Research from Searchlight magazine, which has in the past revealed consider evidence that both the extreme left and the extreme right are supported and staffed with numbers of governments agents to ensure that they fight only amongst themselves, discrediting political alternatives to the two-party system and ensuring that they are politically neutered. With the links of the extreme political organisations such as C18 to the football 'firms', it doesn;t take a genius to realise that it’s the old adage of ‘divide and conquer’.

With the increasingly temporary nature of employment and the lack of Primary industry, with the majority of jobs in the Uk being created in tertiary service industries – the traditional working class interests of sport have often been priced out of the market. Now , we can watch them all on Sky sports, , for a mere £14.99 a month. As Terry Mornington once wrote at this site “Sport was helping in the creation of an identity as well as providing its people with a common bond and so a sense of nationhood; essential in a society that was divided by long established tribal and cultural differences.” He was writing about the popularity of football in Kenya, but its as true there as it is here : sport has been utilised and often manipulated to further social policy implementation and reinforce social control. Few countries could argue that the support given to sports programmes by national and local government agencies is not in part prompted by these goals.

The use of sports and spectacles as a distraction from real, major political issues of the day is nothing new – It dates back to Roman times. The current obsession with sports is the concept of ”Bread and Circuses”, as it is known, whereby the spectators were thrown food and entertained with spectacle, to keep their mind off the slightly more important issues of say, poor sanitation, war mongering leaders, political corruption. It’s no different nowadays, only now it comes replete with the cult of personality, the cult of celebrity, and adverts every 15 minutes advertising the latest luxury goods.

Perhaps it was best when a 1986 report quote it thus: "Do we have the right to offer sport for all when we still do not have bread for all and work for all? Do we have the right to play and dance and to take seriously the measuring of our physical strength and the exercise of our physical skills so long as economic penury and illiteracy exists?"

Of course they do. There’s no better way of placating millions from their own socio-economic problems by giving them a singular front to feel united by, to paper over the social cracks of the vast differences between rich and poor, the have and have-nots, by appealing to some abstract idea of unity, of nation. Hitler did the same in the 1930’s when he came to power, by appealing to the base instinct of national pride in the fractured post-Weimar republic.

But as long as millions remain politically unmotivated and distracted by the latest sideshow, no wonder political corruption is largely uncared for in our apathetic society. Why should most people care when we can divert our attentions from the business of social and urban deprivation, the fact that the government underwrites arms deals to countries such as India (the UK has sold £64.5 millions worth of arms in the past 12 months, as reported by John Pilger ), Pakistan (£6million in the past 12 months), Iran (£12 million in the past twelve months), and Turkey (£188 million), despite the fact that the latter still illegally invaded Cyprus in 1974 and refuses to withdraw, and the others are on the verge of war?

Problem is though, Most people don’t necessarily want to live in a better world, just a better moment. Instant gratification and instant enjoyment. Football, and sport, provides that instant gratification , and is ultimately a meaningless waste of time; and by clinging to outdated, vague notions of national pride, thrives on ugly nationalism disguised as sport. There’s nothing more ugly to me than keeping the corpse of nationalism, imperialism and fascism alive in the means of supposedly harmless entertainment. Flag waving in the name of football , the queen or a war is still nationalism, the artificial division of humanity by some arbitary geographical boundary into 'us and them'.An entertainment that promotes national divisions, feeds violence and hooliganism (see the recent way that Cardiff city owner spurred on hooliganism?, as the BBC documented). Not such a Beautiful Game after all, especially given the mass and rampant commercialism which makes what was once a simple mode of pleasure into nothing more than a cash-cow that neuters and distracts a potentially politically active form of resistance.

In the meantime, the average person watches 4 hours of TV everyday, and less than 10% of the population read books daily. When Isaac Asimov wrote “Congratulations gentleman, you’ve just created the worlds biggest waste of time” about the invention of the television set, think of that over the next two weeks while you tune frantically into every England game. With a distraction like that, why would people want to worry about the bigger things in the world, the things that really matter, things that really make a difference to their lives, when they’ve got things like Beck’s Metatarsal injury to worry about? Think about that ugly subtext of nationalism and racism, hidden unquestioningly behind the veneer of football next time you cheer an England goal. If you just want to see how much difference there is between people expressing their support for British Football, and people at a BNP rally, take a look here. its uncanny....

If you think that the idea of football as a method of social control is insane, preposterous, bordering on X-Files territory, think again : can you tell me why that idea is studied in universities as part of sociology courses.....? which can be found here.If so, is it really so far fetched to believe that governments would want to pacify the population, not by violence, but by their own willingness to be subdued ? Well, later in the year, there’s a remake of “RollerBall” coming out, which shows the world controlled by a number of large corporations using sport as a means of pacifying the population. That’s Oddly more prophetic, given that 51 out of the worlds 100 largest economic entities are….transnational companies, not countries. Mmmm.

In the meantime, I’d be bloody glad when the World Cup is over, maybe the nation will wake up from its self-induced self-obsession with David Beckham’s feet, and maybe pay attention to the world outside its own national obsession again.

Of course, if you dont agree with any of that, theres the comments box below...

Bread And Circuses : The Not-So-Beautiful-Game

oh shut up, you bore.

Re: Bread And Circuses : The Not-So-Beautiful-Game

Well, if you wanna take a deeper look at life beyond face value the media spoonfeed you, sometimes you do have to think once in a while. of course, if this article is above your interllectual level, please admit, or write a reasoned response in return to jusifty what you say....

3lions

"oh shut up, you bore."
the artical was a lot more interesting then your dumbfuck commentry.

i really cant wait till england loses.




Re: Bread And Circuses : The Not-So-Beautiful-Game

i'd hate to see his intellectual level, if a shite article written by someone who can't even spell intellectual is above him.

instead of asking him for a reasoned response, why don't you write a reasoned article, you cunt.

Re: Bread And Circuses : The Not-So-Beautiful-Game

it's not about being spoon-fed, it's about supposed "entertainment" articles being too long and difficult on the eye to read. this is a music website, not a 5,000 word essay swapping centre. perhaps you should consider your audience more carefully before setting out to write...

KPxx

Bread And Circuses : The Not-So-Beautiful-Game

Graham, there are simply too many things that you've written here that are an embarassment to yourself.

but i shall say one thing: learn to fucking enjoy yourself, mate! much as i share your concern about the prospect of war, i never drink beer but then complain that it's so vapid and meaningless.

and to suggest that supporting your country's football team is racist is just the most ridiculously over the top assertion that you've made since claiming that the Queen has "oppressed" the people of Britain.

are you really 28? everything you've written stinks of 15-year old Manics fandom.

i want england to win ...

... but that's cos i'm a fascist, right?

out of interest, do you plan on growing up anytime soon ?

Your so-called 'evidence'

Erm, saying that something is being studied at university, so it must be serious, isn't really that plausible. You can do degrees about the philosophical teachings of Homer Simpson, and about the lives of David and Victoria Beckham! Having said that, I really wanted to agree with what your article was saying, but it was just waaaaaaay over the top. At the moment, if you look around, the whole football/Jubilee thing is kind've giving people an excuse to be nationalist and 'you're German so I have to hate you' kinda thing. But, to say that the government are using football to control the masses!? All you have to do is just turn off your tv mate.

OK, Reedy...

A beautifully written article, even if much of it is misguided.
Football is a game, involving 22 men, a ball and a net (and at the end the Germans win on penalties). Yes, yes, you can go on about what football represents or has replaced, but you can't deny the fact that it simply is a game.
I love watching football, and it's clear you don't. Fine. Leave it at that. There's no need to try to understand WHY you don't like it, it's simply not to your taste.
Of course football can be seen to encourage racism, but it can also unite a nation, as seen in Euro 96, when the nation (even you Graham) united in one happy smile to cheer on Shearer and his boys. Where then was the smell of racism??? Absent, at least until we played the Germans.
I off to watch a World Cup video to reaffirm my belief in football.
"Here comes Carlos Alberto on the right...!"

Thought provoking

This article was extremely well written and thought-provoking, except I have to admit I was confused about what you meant by nationalism and it's implications..did you mean national pride/xenophobia..

And I appreciate having more serious articles on this site, because I have learnt things I wouldn't have learnt about before, i.e. drug dumping..

Re: Bread And Circuses : The Not-So-Beautiful-Game

Spoon-feeding me? Like this site you mean? This is media, is it not?

You pompous fucking asshole. Don't you ever insult my intelligence. You could at least try to spell "intellectual" correctly! You also have no understanding with punctuation - commas and spaces and semi-colons all over the shop. Terrible.

You are also highly repetitive, lack any structure in your articles, and use pseudo-intellectual language (or should that be pseudo-"interllectual"?!).

Please stop writing for this site.

Bread And Circuses : The Not-So-Beautiful-Game

Nah. People like football, you don't. Get over it, pal.
The fact that you feel so superior to everyone else is more worrying than some men kicking a ball around.

Re: Bread And Circuses : The Not-So-Beautiful-Game

Good point. Maybe reaching over saturation with these political type rants they come across as very teenage, kinda stuff I might've written when i was 16/17 or something.. there are issues there that are worth discussing but a more structured mature analysis with less of the simplistic/righteous "capitalism sucks" type stuff would go down a lot better.

about the football, yeah i'm not mad about it myself but hey

Re: Bread And Circuses : The Not-So-Beautiful-Game

once you've quit the site go and dip your head in wet concrete and wait for a few days. Oh, and try not to squat. I want to kick your arse while you do it.

Re: Bread And Circuses : The Not-So-Beautiful-Game

I think you'll find the exact context i used was that the obsession of football regarding national teams is in essence, a diluted disguised form of nationalism, and the hero worship of a singular person in the context of such nationalism has parallels to Neitzesches (?) idea of the fascistic "Super-man" ideal.

Im not afriad of havign read a book or two, y'know, lol. Nor am I 15 anymore... But i was brought up in a sport-filled enviroment whereby sport was everything to my father. Maybe Freud would say I expressing my childhood rage or something, but...I saw how itdominate dpoepels live to the exclusion of everything , and i mena everything .I believe the communities of sport are essential to some in this fractured modern society, the need to belong to something, anything.

The point of the article is to provoke, and to make people think.Im a political idealist, and I'd like to think that some people would rather question the world they live in in blindy accept it. That's obviously going to challenge some people's exisiting beliefs, but rather than debating what and say and why, picking the argument apart, they're taking to personal insults.

I Liked the Manics once, and If I so slavishly followed the manics, I'd have nationalistic logos like Welsh Flags draped all over my amps.

And yes, I do get out and enjoy myself occassionally, but I dont do it with the "90-minute Hate" of Football (as compared to the "2-minute Hate" of Orwell's 1984 - just compare the two. Its just a w.a.s.t.e. of time.

yes, _kp_ maybe this isnt the best place for a piece like that - no more than Raz's blatant pro-footie article, which i felt so strognly about I efelt compelled to write. But right now, it seems the uderbelly of nationalism in football is exploited by many to cling to a the false idea that Britain as a nation still matters in the world, rather than being Bush's "airstrip one"and a fading world power. In the minds of millions, it seems to me that Britain has an empire - and Becks is our leader. LOL

G

Re: Thought provoking

To me, the difference between National pride/ xenophobia and Nationalism is merely in the method of their expression.Which is to say, if someone has national pride, they wish the best for their country and exhibit xenophobia or hatred/ambivalence / dislike for other countries.With nationalism, It's the same ideal to a different extreme. The essence of the idea behind National pride/Xenophobia nad Nationalism are identical, and when it's whipped into a pro-national pride frenzy - a position which Hitler took in the 30's into a illogical extreme - it becomes nationalism.

Thus to me - if no one else - the expression of National pride is justa different, more subtle, more acceptable form of Nationalism.

Hope that clarifies what i meant.

Re: Bread And Circuses : The Not-So-Beautiful-Game

Some people like football, thats up to them. I wanted to look at the wider implications of such a sport and football-obsessed society as we have in England.Some people don't want to do that, again, their choice.

DO I feel superior to everyone else? No. DO I feel worried about the way peoples emotions and opinions are seeingly manipulated like a mass form of sheeple? Yes. Before the 1940's the concept and word 'propaganda' was widely used by the media and the governments (of the US in particular) in terms of shaping popular opinion. (the bets source on this Ive read is "the Super Pollsters; How they measure and manipulate public opinion in America" by David W. Moore, vice president of Gallup Polling group.In the title he even admits how public opinion is manipulated rather than freely decided), and all I'm saying is that the current obsession with sport is a concept of distraction of the masses that goes back thousands of years. Thats more worrying than someone kicking a ball around to me.

I'e nothing against poeple who like football, but my main gripe is when people who do so , do so unthinkingly, unquestioningly and without wondering why. People do Enjoy the game, but do they ever wonder why nations around the world are so obsessed with it? Its only a game. But as such, its sociological impact cannot be underestimated.

Football is just a game, but its so much more than that. To me, its a political means to an end. If "war is the continuation of politicis by other means", then the pro-nationalist feelings of football are exactly the same.

Re: OK, Reedy...

Just for the record, I did not unite in 'one happy smile' about Shearer and his boys in '96. (The phrase "our boys" seems to be equally applicable to footballers and soldiers - isnt that odd eh?) In fact, I didn't watch the game becuase I had no interest in it, and was completely oblivious to all until the next morning. I didn't feel anything about the 'victory'- the same phrase used to describe as military campaign as much as a football match! So please, don't go assuming how I felt, thanks.
In essence, Its just a game ; but its so much more influential than just the 11 on the pitch. its influential on the millions at home watchig in on TV, helping boost brewery profits to boot lol

(something I never did get though, is quite how "30 years of hurt" line in 3 lions? Why did it hurt? Was it liek some family bereaveemnt or something? :-D)

g

Re: Your so-called 'evidence'

The fact that I turn off my TV still means that there's millions who don't.

The use of distractions and spectacles - of which football is just the most modern - is as I've documented, an idea dating back thousands of years, to Roman times. (Hell, Did you ever watched Gladiator?) The concept of the government exerting sociological pacification is well documented by people such as Chomsky, and so forth.
If you can find it, listen to the Noam Chomsky's speech from cambridge, Mass on Feb 7, 1997 where he spoke
"It's goal was to control the public mind,the public mind was seen as the greatest threat. They needed to control the peopel by other means, what they feel, what they think, their attitudes, their attitudes towards one another...."
.
(That can be found on Various Artists CD "Less Rock , More Talk", on AK press Records).

Prior to WWII, the word Propaganda was used quite freely referring to the contorl of the public mind, especially in social sciences in the 30's, until it got bad connotations. To quote the work 'On propaganda' by Edward Brunei, which is regarded as the standard manual of Public Relations Industry and written back in the 1920's..."the concious(?) manipulation of the habits and feelings of the masses is the central feature of democratic society. We have the means to regiment peopes minds as efficiently as armies regiment their bodies, its the way the cement power structures".

When such books have been in existence in academia for over 80 years,to claim that the idea that the use of sports / entertainment to control and manipulate the masses is beyond belief is a ludicrous one.

G

Re: Bread And Circuses : The Not-So-Beautiful-Game

I think the article was more reasoned than that response, which seemed to aim to invalidate everything I wrote based on a single spelling mistake. Read some of the other comments I made on the article, before you judge this for being unreasoned.

If this is sayign somethign you don't wanna hear, well, you know what to do: switch off your minitor as well as your brain LOL

Re: Bread And Circuses : The Not-So-Beautiful-Game

At least its media without the backing of Robert Maxwell and uninfluenced by the interests of big business - unlike the majority of print and visual media out there.

So picking apart the grammatical content of the articles is more important than the content ? Please. If you can't debate your point without i)picking apart grammar rather than the content of the article and ii)resorting to insults, then you have no point to make.



Bread And Circuses : The Not-So-Beautiful-Game

Oooh, I read Noam Chomsky and listen to his cd's . . . fucking tosser. Nice job of undercutting your original point

Bread And Circuses : The Not-So-Beautiful-Game

You read into stuff far too much. What's next? a "thought-provoking" essay on the cutural implications of pizza?

Re: Bread And Circuses : The Not-So-Beautiful-Game

how exactly did i undercut my original point? All i quoted was a text on how governmnet organisations choose to alter the perceptions of the masses via media ; a part of what i was trying to say.

Bread And Circuses : The Not-So-Beautiful-Game

I really do think it's a shame when that view is taken. Fair enough you don't like football - a bunch of blokes chasing a synthetic leather bound pig's bladder - but the racism would occur anyway. The football terraces is just another excuse for thuggery. And what ISN'T a subject in university? You can do anything you want. A PhD in Batman? Done already. If this is an attack on the media, then it's been done far too many times already and I've read it in much more depth also.

Your arguments are all well and good but your failure to point out the other side of the coin is disappointing.

That you say that feeling a sense of belonging is a bad thing is maybe part of the problem in society today. If everyone just focussed on being happy then things would be a lot better and people would write lengthy complaints on websites a lot, lot less frequently. Maybe it's a necessary distraction from the lives of many people. Enjoyment is not a bad thing when it doesn't harm anybody.

It's just football, after all. It's just the same as music. Who doesn't have a favourite band? Mods & Rockers? The Big 5 Labels? Bunch of blokes kicking a pig bladder around? Bunch of blokes plucking wires and bashing skins. Parallels are drawn far too easily.

Re: Bread And Circuses : The Not-So-Beautiful-Game

90 minutes of hate? don't you feel embarassed by totally over-estimating the significance of a sport ?
it's almost entirely harmless - i wanted England to trounce Germany, but that hardly means i hate germans.

furthermore, Nietzsche thought that inter-racial competition would give birth to a superior human race, y'know, social darwinism and all that .... clearly there is absolutely NO link between that the media's obsession with Mr Beckham.

football is an ultimately irrelevant pastime enjoyed by millions of people. for 90 mins they want anyone in a German shirt snapped in half. at the end of the 90 mintues they wanna go and drown their sorrows or celebrate their victory. a minority hate Germans and always will. but that's hardly football's fault.

" ...they're taking to personal insults. "

if you're gonna write cretinous articles people will think you're a cretin. get over it.

"Im not afriad of havign read a book or two, y'know, lol."

all the ones the Manics have quoted on their inlays?
L - O - L indeed

Re: Bread And Circuses : The Not-So-Beautiful-Game

Cretin - "deformed and mentally retarded person". I don't think that the level of articulacy involved in writing such an 1800 word article would classify as that. Simply becuase you don't agree with it doens't make it cretinous, it makes it something you disagreed with in much the same way I don't agree with the sociological role of football.

Re: Bread And Circuses : The Not-So-Beautiful-Game

LOl at Raz - well said. But I think you've already written the other side of the coin - the pro-football article - and if you haven't, its all here in the comments :-D

Yep, and looking at it simply....

Football's just people kicking a ball. And...war's just a bunch of people fighting with no other agenda isn't it? If you're simple, you live in a simple world, because it's easier not to think about anything isn't it?

Ahh, someone's criticising a precious little game

anon? you're very brave for revealing your own name aren't you? got something to hide?

Maybe the hidden agenda is finally coming out.

There's nothing pompous about not enjoying sport. But there's plenty of "fucking asshole" in your angry, blunt words.

I DON'T CARE who wins.

... because there's more important things in life than a bunch of millionaires kicking a ball around. Art. Films. Music. Books. Food.

A nation is just a rock. Claiming that you want England to win because you were born there is as idiotic as claiming you like people with blue eyes because you also have blue eyes. Or wanting white people to beat blacks, because you were born a honky.

Re: Your so-called 'evidence'

'Did you ever watched Gladiator'?

fascist

i figured it would happen without planning.

so i suppose wanting england to lose is immature, is it? so whats wanting england to win? is that the grown up descision?

you havnt got a point.

Re: Your so-called 'evidence'

if you want to pick an argument apart, i'd try by dissecting the evidence presented rather than a typo. It normally works much much better, ta.

Re:to all those criticising the article(not chris)

The grown-up decision normally is to look at the issue in detail and then make up your own mind about it.

If you happen to disagree with the article's point of view, thats your perogative isn't it? Somethign called freedom fo speech defends both your and my right to express views, even if diametrically opposed.

But to dislike something simply because it disagrees with something you passionately believe in without admitting another point of view exists, or that that point of view may have some valid and reasoned points, is not the grown up way.

Its the way of a closed mind. And a closed mind is exactly what leads to such the rabid, unquestioning nationalistic and tribal mentality that affects so much of society today - including football, to the BNP advocating involuntary repatriation (and their links to football hooliganism) and the pro-war gung-ho lobby, which currently supports govt. actions against countries not even invovled in the 9/11 incident. Football is not neccasarily the cause, but it certainly is one of the symptoms of nationalism.

Yeah, but...

I'm watching the world cup because I love football. I'm watching the best players in the world, playing with players they don't usually play with, in stadia they don't usually play in. The team that gels best over the next month will win, and in that sense it's more about unity than anything else. I'd love it if England do really well at the world cup but if they don't, as I expect, then I'll watch because there will be some great football being played.

I appreciate that people use the world cup as an outlet for their nationalism/facism. To an extent I blame the tabloids for this - as soon as the world cup draw was made they started trotting out the usual incendiary language about the Argies and banging on about the Falklands, whipping up a nice frenzy. It digusts me. But let's be fair, not everyone is watching the world cup so they can say "In your face Nigeria! We're a better country than you!"

So yeah, some people are going to get ugly over the next few weeks, but the rest of us are going to be watching the best sports tournament the world has ever seen.

Re: Ahh, someone's criticising a precious little game

My name is Kevin.

Does that make my point any more valid?

football is good

People are naturally competitive (though some more than others). People naturally develop attachments to place. I would rather this was expressed through football than war.

Re: I DON'T CARE who wins.

its people like you trying to turn football into a race issue who spoil it
for everyone else, war without tears,
half the england team are black and just
as proud to wear the shirt as all the blue eyed boys.

Re: fascist

my point is that wanting england to win simply isn't xenophobic. Graham's assertion that it is is simply ridiculous.

Re: I DON'T CARE who wins.

Not at any point in the article does it state its a case of black vs. white, except in relation to how extreme fascists have latched onto the moreholligan side of the game. The main concern is nationalism - be it against nations of any ethnic background. For me iit spoiled by the contsistant overtones of imperialism and nationalism, a point i try to get across rather than stating it is about racist reasons.

Re: fascist

Is it? Or is it just somethign you don't agree with? In any society with freedom of speech, views that you don't agree with are just as valid as yours.

Bread And Circuses : The Not-So-Beautiful-Game

sorry, i didn't get to the end of that article... the pomposity made me nausious.

Re: Bread And Circuses : The Not-So-Beautiful-Game

a lot of people have said that. Its better described as beng highbrow than pompous tho'

G

highbrow?

try posting it to a serious discussion site and they'll probably tear it to shreds :-/ not wishing to be too harsh, but your stuff has the air of a precocious teenager who's just discovered marxism or something, comes across rather righteous, patronising, verbose and yet still ultimately rather unconvincing. if you want to convince people of something you don't tell them they're stupid and mainstream society is stupid, they'll just tell you to take your head outa your arse. There's a balance to be had, you need to be smart without sounding like you're trying too hard to be smart

Re: Ahh, someone's criticising a precious little game

Doesn't make it any more valid. But at least you're not ahsamed of who you are. ;)

Re: fascist

Xenophobia is the logical extension of excessive pride in your nation. Therefore, xenophobia, that is "fear of aliens" (or the different) comes from Nationalism. England is NOT superior to anywhere else, its just different. Wanting England to win is as meaningless as wanting to wear a particular volour. A nation means NOTHING, it is just artificial division of people by meaningless, arbitrary barriers to breed conflict.

Thugs in Red & White Shirts

...managed to spend all of yesterday chanting "RULE BRITANNIA" in massive, violent packs in Birmingham, Bromsgrove, and Dudley - that i saw with my own eyes, and no doubt plenty of other places - with their faces painted up, drunk, and threatening violence. Chanting and singing in packed pubs drunk out of their brains and scaring the willies out of people who don't hang around in big packs of beered up Nationalists.

Isn't football great?

interesting comparison of BNP + football supporter

http://www.monkeon.co.uk/supporter/

Re: Thugs in Red & White Shirts

Some football supporters are wankers, some aren't.

Same with bands - some fans are wankers and cause shit at gigs, some are fine.

It's not rocket science.

Re: Thugs in Red & White Shirts

Agree! In contrast, this is what I did for the England/Argentina match:

Got up 10am, met some mates down the offie and had a couple of beers down the park, discussing the game ahead and various tactics oud Sven may apply.
12:10pm - head down the Hop & Friar to get a good seat and pick up a free match-edition copy of the Shropshire Star. The place is fairly big for a small pub and quite packed, with 3 TV screens & everyone in good spirit, surprisingly not that drunk, if it all. Just a really friendly Shrewsbury-like atmosphere.
Course, everyone was ooh-ing & ah-ing and shouting support to the teams, chanting 'Rule Britannia' & 'ENG-ER-LAND!' while gradually getting more inebriated but so was I, but does that make me or anyone there a drunken violent hooligan? I mean, what are we expected to do? Sit neatly with cups of tea and scones, clapping quietly to ourselves?
It was just a brilliant atmosphere, especially when Beckham scored in the 44th minute - the place just erupted! The fact that there were free sausage and chips at half time just made it even better!
I had the time of my life and if you're not willing to accept that the majority of those watching the World Cup enjoy it in the same way then I really feel sorry for you.

Re: Thugs in Red & White Shirts

Agree! In contrast, this is what I did for the England/Argentina match:

Got up 10am, met some mates down the offie and had a couple of beers down the park, discussing the game ahead and various tactics oud Sven may apply.
12:10pm - head down the Hop & Friar to get a good seat and pick up a free match-edition copy of the Shropshire Star. The place is fairly big for a small pub and quite packed, with 3 TV screens & everyone in good spirit, surprisingly not that drunk, if it all. Just a really friendly Shrewsbury-like atmosphere.
Course, everyone was ooh-ing & ah-ing and shouting support to the teams, chanting 'Rule Britannia' & 'ENG-ER-LAND!' while gradually getting more inebriated but so was I, but does that make me or anyone there a drunken violent hooligan? I mean, what are we expected to do? Sit neatly with cups of tea and scones, clapping quietly to ourselves?
It was just a brilliant atmosphere, especially when Beckham scored in the 44th minute - the place just erupted! The fact that there were free sausage and chips at half time just made it even better!
I had the time of my life and if you're not willing to accept that the majority of those watching the World Cup enjoy it in the same way then I really feel sorry for you.

Re: Thugs in Red & White Shirts

Guess you just gotta feel sorry for me then.Justa thought: dont you think people got caught up in the spirit fo the group and enjoyed the nuremberg rallies too?

oh well, enjoy the following test...
http://www.monkeon.co.uk/supporter/

Re: Your so-called 'evidence'

Well I think you'll find I did that and you just ended up cutting and pasting a load of random drivel from your clever-clever books... anyway, why are distractions such a bad thing? If people are willing to be distracted from the mundane routine of life, then so be it. Would you rather everyone just sat at home planning how to overthrow the government? Life is to be enjoyed, different strokes for different folks. The people who use football to be racist would still be racist even if football didn't exist. Yes that may be really really wrong but don't blame some blokes kicking a ball about, blame their views. I'm sorry, but it is absolutely absurd to suggest that the government are using football in some sort of paranoid conspiracy to control our minds. You're talking shit, and you know you are, everyone knows it. We're just music fans, and you might think by quoting these stupid pseudo-intellectual books that you've probably never read all the way through, that it makes you better than us. Don't patronise us. Get over yourself. So you don't like football. Big deal. Nor do I. I don't particularly like UK Garage either, but you don't see me constructing ridiculous arguments to suggest that it's all a big mind-control experiment now do you?

COME OFF IT

That's all bullshit. Football is a game I enjoy watching, alone or in the company of others. It's just fun, that's all.

mmmmm, i knew there was a

reason why i stayed at home for the england match
ho ho ;)

nah...i may add a considered comment to it all when i can be bothered to plough through all the posts on the article (and the entire article too).
Needless to say though, out of the two non-englishmen in our house, both of us made the point a few years ago now of not going to the pub for england games any more. And also, the englishwoman in our house doesnt understand our point of views on the entire situation eihter. it's a funny one, this....

Re: Thugs in Red & White Shirts

Well, now I really feel sorry for you. I took that test and, ok, I got two wrong but why do you feel the need to associate extreme right wing fascists with the rest of us footie supporters? Which is what you essentially have done. Yes, rascist football 'fans' exist and I know someone who did get caught up in that scene in the 80s but for fucks sake get it into your head that for every one of those idiots there's a few hundred who of us actually enjoy the sport rather than the violence.

On another point, yes I do feel very patriotic when watching England play. And when France drew with Uruguay a smile did creep on my face but that's as far as it goes. And it's harmless. It's funny to rib the few French people I know about it just as they're bound to rib me if England lose badly to Nigeria. They won't get offended and neither will I. Or is that too unrealistic for you?

Seriously, you really need to lighten up a bit Mr Reed.

Re: Thugs in Red & White Shirts

"i do feel very sorr for you mr. Reed"
Dont worry, i can live with that....;-) And I dont need feeling sorry for: as IVeprobably explained in great detail, The nationalist/ xenophobic overtones of football worry me greatly.

"yes I do feel very patriotic when watching England play. " Well..as someone else pointed out, the country of your birth is just an accident, and there's no point being so attached to what is essentially, just a piece of rock simply becuase you live there. Whoever else who pointed that out nailed the point far better than I did.

As for that quiz: its something that was included ina newsletter from b3Ta.com. I thought it was valid enough to include: becuase it shows quite graphically, the fine line between patrioitc football supporting and patriotic fascist supporting.

peace and Love everyone

G

Re: Thugs in Red & White Shirts

I bet you're almost loving the Moscow thang.

packs of drunks

I don't understand this. I don't feel comfortable if I go into a pub which has 100 drunkards in face-paint who can barely stand screaming "England! England!", before waddling off down the road to the next pub being boisterous intimidating arseholes, and that makes me the bad guy?

The high streets of suburban England were very unpleasant on Friday because of the football. For me, it's not football I dislike (though it is somewhat boring), its the fans.

Re: Thugs in Red & White Shirts

I'm absolutely horrified by it. But it proves my point better than a debate on a message baord does.

Re: Your so-called 'evidence'

I just spent 20 minutes responding to this, only to lose it when explorer crashed dammit. so Ill repeat roughly what i said again...

If you wanna take the world at face value, If you don't want to think about how maybe large corporations and governments might possibly have a vested interest in sayl, influenincg public opinion (something which the entire publlic relations / propaganda industry exists to do), then thats up to you. I prefer to ask questions rather than accept things at face value. perhaps the most blatant piece of media manipulatioN isaw iwas in 1994, when the first edition fo the Sun after the CJB 'riots' demanded a police inquiry after initial reports stated that the police charged and blocked in protestors in order to create unrest; reports I've had verified by seperate independent witnesses. Every other edition of the SUna nd the NEws of the world forgot they;d ever raised the issue,and stated that th CJB was necessary to prevent similar incidences happening again. if Doing a 180 degree turn on an editorial and trying to excise it form history in some sort of sorwellian revisionsit exercise isn't proof of some vested interests at work, what is?

As for me allegdly knowing Im talkign shit, I wouldnt have spent as long as I did writing / researching this article or responded to just about every individual talkback if I 'knew' I was talking crap. Ive more constructive things to do with my time than bang my head against a brick wall, which is the feeling Im continually getting at the moment. There's none so blind as will not see, and If you're not willing to look at the world with an open and questioning mind, then no amount of academia will change your opinion. Just look at David Irving for proof of that.

Is it really absurd to think that it is in the interests of large corpoaartions and governmental organisatiosn not to have influence over their electorates opinions, over the public mind? The very existence of spin doctors and the opublic relations industry is testament to the fact that its not absurd, but very very real.

Going into a debate like this with a closed mind is cyclic and repetitive, and no amount of evidence to support my argument will make you change your mind. thats not a recongiton of defeat, but a recognition of the inflexibility of your opinions.

Lets agree to disagree, and I'm off to do something more constructive, like make toast, because Im hungry.

Would I rather peopel stayed at home plotting to overthrow the government? No. I'd rather peopel questioned the way in which the world they live in is run, and understand that striving for a better world, not a better moment is probably more worthwhile.

the main purpose of this piece I wrote was to make people think about soemthing for themselves, not to have them reinforce their existing personal
beliefs with personal insults to someone who dare say soemthignt hey don't believe in.

Dammit, Its late, im tired, and the futility of arguing with the intolerant
and closed-mindedness wears down even the most dedicated idealist in me.

lets agree to disagree

G

the article objectives:PLEASE READ

TYhe point of this article was threefold: firstly to express something i've felt strongly about for a long time, which is the ugly subtext of nationalism and sport, secondly to talk about how much effect the culture of sport (and football in particular) has on our day to day lives to the point where it permeates justa bout everything and thirdly - and most importantly - to maybe get people to think and even question the world in which they live in, rather than take it at face value.

However, most of the discussion of the comments board - and at 63 comments its probably the most commented on single article in the sites history to date, as well as beign one of the most viewed articles on the site - have been personally abusive, or derogatory, or hostile, and very very few have been wanting indulge in reasoned, rational debate about the points I was hoping to raise.

if soemoen wants to write a reasoned, rational article supported by evidence disproving that the role of sport and the current xenophobic legions of people with union jacks painted on their faces shouting "ENGLAND!ENGLAND!" before starting riots is totally free of any nationalist overtones whatsoever feel free. I personally don't think its possible to do such an article convincingly.

But at any rate, to those of you who wanted to debate and talk rationally, thanks for your comments. to those who just wanted to hurl personal abuse because someone said somethign you didn't want to hear, well freedom of speech includes saying things people sometimes find uncomfortable or challening to their pre-existing belief system.

In hindsight looking back, this piece was probably a bit provocative and bit too political for many readers: not many coem to site like DiS expecting academic level discussion. Bearing that in mind, and the downright hostility from some, I don't think you'll be seeing an article as politicised as this one from me again. I've had enough of the personal abuse for more than one lifetime thank you very much.

thanks for taking part, peace and love to you all.

(and no, I wont be watching the football in the pub, LOL)
G

Re: COME OFF IT

if its just fun, why is JAcques LE Pen planning to use it as a springboard to incite racial hatred in france?

http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_604081.html

"Le Pen 'set to capitalise on World Cup woes'

Jean-Marie Le Pen will use football for political gain if the French national side crash out of the World Cup on Tuesday, it is claimed.

The Far Right leader openly criticised the multi-cultural make-up of France's 1998 World Cup winning team.

There are fears he could use the current line-up's failures for his own gain.

France is currently in the grip of parliamentary elections while the national side have to win by 2 goals to stay in the World Cup on Tuesday.

French football expert Dr Geoff Hare said a defeat could add further to growing nationalist movements within the country.

The Newcastle University lecturer believes French national pride is on the brink of breaking point, having been bruised for decades by a series of humiliating events.

"When this multi-racial team won the World Cup, there was huge euphoria and it was also felt that this was a victory over the Far Right in France," Dr Hare said.

But he added: "A loss at the World Cup for this multi-racial team which were once championed by the French will be a severe dent to the French national pride and, more significantly, a victory for the National Front who criticised them back in 1998.
"

Re: the article objectives:PLEASE READ

Actually my Seafood review got 70 comments. Therefore making it the most commented on article in DiS history. So ner.

Re: Thugs in Red & White Shirts

There was violence after the england game in kidderminster and all the pubs in town were closed.

I hate to think what would have happened if england had actualy lost...

Re: COME OFF IT

aww, come on Graham ... are people really gonna turn against immigrants in France due to the performance of the football team ?

and anyway, people forget that Le Pen's performance in presidential elections hasn't improved that much - the turnout has just dropped.
people should stop scaremongering with the whole "Rise of Fascism" nonsense

Re: Your so-called 'evidence'

How is anyone else being any more closed-minded than you? I haven't seen you give way when people have reasonably expressed opinions different to yours either.

Re: over 20 of those comments are from you

That still makes some 44 which aren't. ( I hadnt realised I'd done so many)

Re: the article objectives:PLEASE READ

"However, most of the discussion of the comments board - and at 63 comments its probably the most commented on single article in the sites history to date, as well as beign one of the most viewed articles on the site - have been personally abusive, or derogatory, or hostile, and very very few have been wanting indulge in reasoned, rational debate about the points I was hoping to raise."

I think you'll find the article I wrote a while back that briefly reflected on some of the hypocrisies that are prevalent in Afghanistan and which underline the Islamic faith received the record number of comments, most of which were hostile and derogatory & directed at me.
I think it reached over a thousand hits, but as you say it was also probably a bit too provocative for most readers.

Suffice to say, I would appreciate people not commenting further on it.

FOOTBALL : CORRUPTING OUR YOUTH SHOCK

Are yet again another lovely, illthought out, sensational cliche ridden article.

Football is not to blame for people not giving a shit about whatevers going on in Pakistan etc. People not giving a shit is to blame. If football didn't exist (and had no alternative) people still wouldn't give a shit and the Sun wouldn't make a fuss because all they do is reflect the interests of the public.

Frankly, I don't give a shit about the majority of whats going on in Pakistan etc and I'm a fecking politics student. The reason why is because it doesn't interest me, much like the rest of the country.

If you could explain why the increasing role of the tertiary sector is stopping commoners from watching sport I would appreciate it. Or did you just think it sounded like a left wing thing to say, cause proper workers work in factorys dont they. The economic arguements in favour of Britain becoming more involved in the tertiary sector and in deed not having life time jobs are pretty staggering. but anywho.

you seem to have a problem with people admiring someone for being athletically superior to themselves, perhaps comparisons can be drawn with certain people and intelectual superiors or supposed superiors anyway, chomsky is a fucking idiot.

As for the issue of nationalism sport. It is undoubtedly over simplifying things to an absurd extent to equate partriotism with nationalism. I have been getting incredibly angry when I go anywhere recently as the country seems to be dominated with fucking flags and they make me angry. BUT i then realised these people are idiots they love their country they are not necessarily racist nor bad people. They just love their david beckham or the queen. which really is not a bad thing. Sure some people will turn their patriotism into nationalism but some people would do anything.

As for comparing the BNP shit to football shit. Thats pretty pathetic too. I recently attended a communist march in Brussels apart from the flags being different it was pretty much the same. fucking fascist commys.

so please a ban on writings from such narrow minded viewpoints.

Re: FOOTBALL : CORRUPTING OUR YOUTH SHOCK

All i wanted to put across was the way i feel about football: And , If I was so narrow minded, would I have invited people to put their opposite views across too?

Re: Thugs in Red & White Shirts

Really the two of you should write for the Sun....

I too was in the lovely town of Bromsgrove. and yes i get very intimidated by most football fans but violent they weren't. they were all pissed and happy.

maybe if a foreigner was to get in there way they would give them a beating but foreigners deserve. If they come to OUR country we should be able to do whatever we want to em.

Re: FOOTBALL : CORRUPTING OUR YOUTH SHOCK

when have you taken anyone elses view into account thought about it and then replied addressing that arguement.

Instead of just spouting the same simplistic crap. that you did in the article.

I'm sorry because I seem to have got an impression of you that makes you this exact image of a certain type of person that really pisses me off.

Who are obsessed left wing politics who read everything giving no thought at all to it and then proceed to spout it at every opportunity. If you are not like this I apologise.

no idea how im to be convinced and why should you convince me anyway. im the one with the problem about it.

Bloody hell... boring!

"Football's great!"
"No it's crap"
"Footballs great and harmless and never did anything wrong to anyone"
"My brain is the muscle I use"
"Won't talk to you brainy commie snob"
"Huh! Fine. I'm too msart for you anyway."

In circles and circles.

And I don't even liek football. It doesn't go anywhere. It doesn't say anything. It's a bunch of blokes kicking a ball around. There is another agenda underneath football and not a pleasant one - like most things. Next up, expect a rant about how music pacifies the youth of today into not being political.. and then that's DIS up the swanney. x

Re: FOOTBALL : CORRUPTING OUR YOUTH SHOCK

fascist commies? no such thing....

There's a massive historical difference between the union jack and the st george cross than there is people with red flags with showing the hammer and sickle, or whatever you saw in Brussels.

And I'd like to argue that there *is* something very wrong with people blindly following the monarchy.

As for David beckham - well he plays for Man Utd..he's obviously quite evil...

Re: FOOTBALL : CORRUPTING OUR YOUTH SHOCK

I really see the monarchy in the same light as the stereophonics. They probably deserve to die but somehow make people happy. (simple people)

You may well come up with important sociological reasons why people shouldn't follow the monarchy but the fact is these theories are rarely relevant because they fail to address the real painfully shallow reasons why people do. (this still applies to the stereophonics too)

Re: FOOTBALL : CORRUPTING OUR YOUTH SHOCK

naturally, any sane person agrees with your stereophonics comparison. All of 'em up against the wall, of course...

To put it down to 'simple people'...mmm...I think the royal family are incremental in the way we are ruled and governed. You can't really equate some granny in hartlepool who has a Charles and Di loo roll holder with the way The Royal Family rule over the rest of us. They Royal Family is possibly the most undemocratic institution on earth. If this was explained to people by the mass media, things might change. The reasons why people shouldn't accept the monarchy are painfully relevant - it's just that this hidden.

Still, if it came to a toss up between getting rid of the the Stereophonics and the Royal Family, it'd be a tough one...

Re: FOOTBALL : CORRUPTING OUR YOUTH SHOCK

To me they aren't undemocratic because they can't do anything. So they don't rule over us. All the power exists the same way as Posh and Becks they can influence people through public admiration. They have no legal or political power at all (in practise at least).

In a perfect and new state they undoubtedly wouldn't exist but getting rid of them now would just cause too many problems.

Re: FOOTBALL : CORRUPTING OUR YOUTH SHOCK

This is wrong. They run the Privy Council, an institution that can overturn any government decision.

They 'own' the army, the air force, the navy. They have more power than people know.

Re: FOOTBALL : CORRUPTING OUR YOUTH SHOCK

agreed they have this power constitusionally but the don't and they really wouldn't be able to overturn anything because the second they did there would be huge outrage and they would be out a job for the exact democratic arguement you stated earlier.
Same for army and stuff really the power lies entirely with HRH Blair.

anyway my politics text books say the royal prerogative has been transferred to the PM.

Agreed its not the way things shuold be but it apart from silly ideoligical and philosophical reasons i dont believe it does any damage.

Re: FOOTBALL : CORRUPTING OUR YOUTH SHOCK

I apologise for using the word agreed so many times.
stupid word

Re: FOOTBALL : CORRUPTING OUR YOUTH SHOCK

Tim, the fact is that they *can* use these powers if they ever feel in threat. Of course they won't use them in the present climate - we're not in any kind of 'pre-revolutionary' situation.

The damage the monarchy does is 'invisible'. Her extreme wealth is one example of this. Graham Allen MP stood up in the Commons not long ago and asked the Privy Council to draw up a list of all the prerogative powers the Queen has. He was told that this would be impossible because it would cost too much money. Anecdotal evidence, but telling evidence methinks....

Still can't decide whether it's her or Kelly Jones, mind...

Re: FOOTBALL : CORRUPTING OUR YOUTH SHOCK

Tim, the fact is that they *can* use these powers if they ever feel in threat. Of course they won't use them in the present climate - we're not in any kind of 'pre-revolutionary' situation.

The damage the monarchy does is 'invisible'. Her extreme wealth is one example of this. Graham Allen MP stood up in the Commons not long ago and asked the Privy Council to draw up a list of all the prerogative powers the Queen has. He was told that this would be impossible because it would cost too much money. Anecdotal evidence, but telling evidence methinks....

Still can't decide whether it's her or Kelly Jones, mind...

Re: FOOTBALL : CORRUPTING OUR YOUTH SHOCK

probably just naivety but I do not believe they could use the powers. and then perhaps just before a revolution it wouldnt be a bad thing. arent many good revolutions possible these days, now communism is pretty much an agreed failure.

it would be interesting what they would do with a bill to abolish the monarchy though. i dont think they would have the guts.

and anyway democracy isnt everything...

Time to be quiet, perhaps.

Oh Tim! You spoiled it at the end! 'Democracy isn't anything'!! I have to disagree at almost Kelly Jones proportions with you there.

Communism wasn't a failure at all. The West will always say that communism 'failed'. I say capitalism's failing. It's on it's knees. Communism was destroyed by Stalin - he had nothing to do with the Leninist revolution of 1917.

Jeez...look how far we are off subject. maybe we should both just shut up...

Re: COME OFF IT

Knives can be used to chop food, and they can also be used to kill people. Do you see what I mean?

Re: Communism

I'd have to agree with sam's assertion. Stalin definitely was the downfall of communist society rather than a fundamental flaw in communist doctrine. (After Lenin did state that Stalin was the one person who should not be his successor)


I wrote my dissertation / thesis paper on economic policy under Stalin in 1994: it was called "SOCIALISM IN ONE COUNTRY: the economic creation of the communist state 1917-1953" , and might still be able to be found in the University of teesside archives. I'm unsure how long their archiving policy means things have to kept, but its 17,500 words I'd rather never ever have to write again, thank you. let alone read!

G

Bread And Circuses : The Not-So-Beautiful-Game

The reason The Sun and popular media in general cover Beckham's foot, England's World Cup chances, etc. isn't this conspiratorial brainwashing, political diversion as you seem to think.

The Editors aren't stupid. People *want* to read this stuff. If they don't provide it, someone else will, so they're not going to go all high-brow and intellectual if it alienates their entire audience and thus stops them making money - the core ideal around which businesses are formed.

I fully agree that it's tragic that important political and world issues are neglected in favour of trivial things, but your singling out football simply because it doesn't interest you only weakens your argument.

Big Brother, the marriage of Paul McCartney / split of Jennifer Lopez and her beau (which are music related), and anything else in the entertainment domain are just as guilty of this. But it's a sad fact of life. Other than chin-stroking intellectuals, people generally want non-depressing, light, bitesize, instantly gratifying fun fixes. It may seem apathetic, but we're only animals, and sadly, our primal instinct is self-serving.

I can't really comment on the political alignment of all soccer fans, but not everyone who worships Beckham or goes to a football match cheering on their national side is a fascist. Given his pop status, worshipping the supposedly superior Beckham is no different to wetting your knickers over a poster of your favourite rock star. And while many morons take the national pride too far (dazzled by all the St. George's crosses at a football ground or a Jubilee party) there are a greater number more for whom pride in the national side is little more than harmless fun associated with the entertainment of football.

Other nations' soccer hooligans aren't as well documented as ours, who are we to say with our local view whether ours are worse than, say, Germany's or Paraguay's? Is it fascistic of any other World Cup nation to be fiercly proud of their side and want them to win? It's xenophobic of an Englishman to say to a Scottishman that Scotland are a shit football team, but not the other way around?

I'm not naive enough to suggest they're all innocent little darlings looking for harmless fun, and we do need to weed out and calm down the nasty sect of racist tossers. But it's unfair of you to sweepingly suggest all English fans are echoing fascist sentiments every time they turn on, tune in and cop out to the latest England match.

Unlike the rest of the gits on this board, I'm glad you wrote the article... it's always nice to have a bit of brain food. If something like this isn't contentious, it's Website wallpaper. :)

Dale xx

ah dear ...

anyone who backs Lenin is clearly deranged ... quite why he is historically perceived as the good guy and Stalin as the undoer of all his "good work" is beyond me.

Re: ah dear ...

thanks for explaining why....care to?

Re: ah dear ...

well, y'know, lenin was a pretty evil bastard too - he was pretty ruthless in his supression of dissent - tortured and executed fuck knows how many people. he even banned marriage at one point and appointed a Commissar for Englightenment who employed factions of the Red Army to find any russian orthodox church where weddings were taking place and those present would be shot.

he was an evil twisted bastard - but people are in love with the idea of him and Trotsky storming the winter palace and overthrowing the Tsar, who still retained popular support anyway. Trotsky, allegedly, took great delight in severing the arm of Alexis, the Tsarevich, and watching the helpless 10-year old haemophiliac bleed to death. lenin and his pals were a bunch of very, very sick bastards.





Re: Bloody hell... boring!

Damn straight mate.
Football has nothing intrisicly evil or opressive about it. Like it or not, you can't claim that inherrant in the rules of football is anything racist, sexist, classist and so on. That some football supporters happen to be racist and facists means very little. Some football supporters happen to be anarchists, some happen to be communists and so on.
Having said that, football can be used as a tool by non inocent parties, as can anything, such as food. Thats right, the way you consume food is used in order to opress you. But you don't blame food for it. YOu blame the guys opressing you. I think this aproach needs to be taken with football too.

Re: Time to be quiet, perhaps.

being quiet is probably a good idea but ..

communism:
i kinda see it as a completely unobtainable utopia. it relies on a kind of human nature that doesn't exist and never will, unfortunately scrapping capitalism is unlikely to change people in such a fundamental way. and from an economics perspective i am becoming increasingly convinced that capitalism is great anyway, with adequate redistribution n stuff anyway.

as for the democracy comment, I would be happy to live under some kind of undemocratic Plato-esque Republic. I have little faith in people to know what they want is really best for them, so if some kind of dictators wanted to rule in the interests of everyone without exploitation that would be fine. of course the likeliness of that happening is pretty much impossible anyway but hey.
maybe im just a raving fascist.

Re: ah dear ...

hey I'd happily take up arms and waste a few people. That's what communism is all about.
Arm the working class against their enemies and do away away with the establishment. For a workers' militia!
I get fed up of people saying 'it'll never happen'....if the majority are willing...

Re: Bread And Circuses : The Not-So-Beautiful-Game

Side note: The hooligan problem in countries such as Argentina and italy have been documented (on BBC2's "Hooligans" amongst others). (I'd also reccommend a couple of Books "among the Thugs" (cant remember the author) and "Football louts and ticket touts: with england on the world cup" (in 1998) by Eddy Brimson too) If you want some more reading.

Anyone who wonders if football and pop music isn;t realated might want to wonder why the Stereophonics once wrote a song called "As Long as we beat the English" too :-))

G


And

Re: Time to be quiet, perhaps.

Maybe you are Tim!

You may be able to sit there in your comfortable world and say that capitalism is great. Hundreds of millions of people aren't as fortunate as you. Take this country alone, on the morning that 17,000 more jobs are to be axed from the Royal Mail because it's run as a profit making, capitalist business, 95% of the wealth in this country is in the hands of 5% of the people. Capitalism is in terminal decline, hence the continual boom and bust - the people that suffer are ordinary workers, it's a brutal system that has no regard for human beings, just profit.

Anyway, rant over, I'm off to watch the Brazil game, or are people still allowed to watch footy ;-)

Re: ah dear ...

I was pissed when I wrote that..apologies..

I'm a big fluffy bunny really....

Re: ah dear ...

arm the working classes against their enemies? give me a fucking break.

Re: Time to be quiet, perhaps.

oh dear it was all going so well up to there.. then seems to go back to the normal tired and inaccurate but so often used arguements you would expect from a reed article. :)

yes the royal mail thing is shite, but that there is no point in keeping people in jobs but you cannot have a company losing £1.1bn a year just to support that many jobs. You might aswell give the money straight to the workers if that was the case and they need not bother working then. fact is profit is an excellent way of making an economy work as efficiently as possible.

with suitable controls on capitalism such as a decent minimum wage etc. it works out better for everyone. the only people who suffer then are the actual unemployed and the to sound like a blairite twat, which im not, the best way to solve poverty is through employment not benefits.
you just have to look at how living standards for everyone increases with economic growth the fact that a lot of the time in the past the extra money in the country has gone straight to the rich is due pretty much down to a certain woman.

well i dunno what im trying to say, but i get the impression you have not studied economics and capitalism and consequently cannot see the potential benefits of it. not that i have really looked into theoretical communist economic systems.

so perhaps time to end all this.

Re: ah dear ...

whatever you say mr bang...

Re: Time to be quiet, perhaps.

I disagree with everything you say, Tim, but you're right - time to stop.

As long as we beat the English ...

... was about rugby. do yer research, pal

Re: As long as we beat the English ...

same principle though isn't it?

Re: As long as we beat the English ...

clearly rugby doesn't command the same amount of public attention as football

Re: ah dear ...

i suppose you're working class are you? with your nike trainers, sky TV and internet access?
nobody in britain is working class anymore, for fuck's sake

Re: As long as we beat the English ...

it's not the rugby world cup is it

Re: As long as we beat the English ...

In rugby the brainless people are on the pitch, whereas in football they're on the terraces having fights being twats etc. That's the one, isn't it?

Oh my sidezzzzzz

Re: ah dear ...

Oh, god, if you really must know I left school at 16 and worked as a plumber til I got made redundant when i was 19. Was on the dole for three years...am now in work.

God forbid that any working class person should have internet access though eh, bangman, that's just not cricket is it?

'No-one is working class in Britain anymore' - you really have swallowed it whole haven't you?

So, what's your life story...?

new topic to invigorate people

All the brainless people that mostly came from private/grammar schools...

Re: new topic to invigorate people

yay for classism!

to answer a (probably) unserious question seriously..

of course there are hundreds of types of intelligence and stuff but academically private/grammer school children tend to be much better. rather boringly.

and did someone suggest back there that footballs are intelligent?!?

Re: Re:to all those criticising the article(not chris)

doubt this will ever get read now but it is possible to be a extremely intelligent and open minded and still be a raving nationalist.

Re: fascist

if this is going to develop to pedantry and semantics....

surely if all nations are different one is superior?
of course what makes it superior will be based on personal judgement. but maybe it is scientifically possible to prove a superior country and race.

come on, though ...

.. since the 80s britain has become increasingly devoid of class divisons (royal family and homeless people aside), the kinda people that might fit into the traditional template of working class acount for a tiny proportion of the population.

Re: come on, though ...

when's the last time you lowered yourself to venture onto a working class estate?

The working class make up the MAJORITY of this country. Does that scare you?

Sorry for not wearing Nikes....you sound like a true Blairite/Thatcherite...that scares me...

Re: fascist

what a great idea. Why not measure the size of skulls for a starting point... oh hang on, hitler already did that one lol.
mmmm. Its scietifically possible to prove a superior race though. one race - the human race.

Bread And Circuses : The Not-So-Beautiful-Game

I know this has been a pretty heated debate but for those who do actually appreciate the World Cup for all the nice reasons this site has some pretty funny world cup pics and movies & stuff. Worth checking out.

http://exclusive.proteinmusic.com/vip2292616/first.htm

Bread And Circuses : The Not-So-Beautiful-Game

I know this has been a pretty heated debate but for those who do actually appreciate the World Cup for all the nice reasons this site has some pretty funny world cup pics and movies & stuff. Worth checking out.

http://exclusive.proteinmusic.com/vip2292616/first.htm

Re: Bread And Circuses : The Not-So-Beautiful-Game

Hmm, the point about As Long As We Beat The English doesn't apply, Kelly Jones is a cunt so anything he says or does is worthless. :)

Dale x

well,

nobody does working class jobs anymore, though .... apart from the minority like yourself (plumbers, carpenters, that kinda thing)

oh, and by working class estate, do you mean council estate? if so, yes .. there's one merely 5 minutes walk away from where i live and one of my friends was stabbed there ....... oh well

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