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Don't tar us all with the same brush, you middle class Tory-voting 'twit'.
Chav doesn't describe class. Chav describes breed: scum.
working class people all live in mud huts without electricity, and certaintly don't have office jobs or computers or anything.
assessment of someone asking for good "indie bands" :D
in my job i consult with the public a lot, and a lot of them live in some of the poorest areas of this city. you'd be surprised about how many living in social housing and "deprived" areas have access to the above items.
is so right...
i work for an MP who represents one of britain's poorest constituencies and certainly an enormous number of people who contact us have internet access at home, for example
he is only 16.
I'm on my summer holiday and I've got nothing to do today.
What's that sposed to mean anyway? Almost all my friends have internet access and Sky etc. Does that mean they're middle class?
Do you think the class system still exists/still has any relevence?
PS this isn't intended to insult you in anyway. I'd just be interested to know what you think having declared yourself working class.
However, being brought up by a single mother for 10 years, and now living in a house where both my guardians work for a living, I think 'lets me in'.
being a single parent doesn't mean you are raising a working class family at all.
You people really don't get sarcasm or irony do you?
Is that how you're going to respond to everyone from now on?
a rock-solid meaning of the classes these days, neither of us are wrong.
You're just a grudgeful person that needs to stop trying to get one over on a kid.
Don't think I'm trying to "get one over" on you or anything, I was trying to introduce you to something called 'adult conversation'.
I think I am working class. You don't.
You don't seem to engage in these 'adult conversations' with anyone but me, do you?
Chuckle. Keep it up. You're good for killing 20 minutes.
say why you're working class?
I would bet that it's all down to ideology. You don't want to be seen as middle class for some blinkered reason.
You keep telling yourself that I'm bothered what you think of me, you pathetic little pussycat.
That way, everyone's happy.
to petty name-calling instead of addressing the issue. Maybe we'll try the adult conversation thing in a few years.
how do you define working class, then?
and now my dad and my step mum both have jobs.
im not remotely working class
it does doesnt it.
depends on how you choose to define yourself
you ain't a real working class boy! WANNABE.
a reason for being middle class, i'm probably on the top end of middle class and I don't have sky. Maybe that's just because my family is more cultured, eh?
Come back when you know what you're talking about.
for someone who lambastes people for not understanding irony you're pretty poor at it yourself.
Wrighty, note this now, I will never say anything serious to you.
By the way, when did middle class become a pejorative term?
to decry people who care about the environment and politics and education
I could decry those folks all day. Knowledgable - fine. Caring - Hippy.
The working class don't care about the environment, politics or education.
I think this conversation is proof that even if class doesn't exist people still get touchy about it.
They might care about all those things, but as soon as they became educated politicians who campaign on environmental issues, they become middle class. Get it?
you think working class people care about the environment? i could collate some evidence to prove you wrong, if you like
yeah, i hate that quite alot. a band isn't any good if it's middle class. what's that all about?
I have very understanding parents
By calling him a "middle class tory-voting 'twit'" you've just conradicted yourself. good work.
I'd cut to the song...
Both are incredibly enjoyable to watch falling down a flight of stairs.
I just wish you literally were.
hoping I die somehow amuses me.
Just a few blisters.
it had an old-time photo of some upper class nonces in formal dress holding rifles, and the text reads "well, the chavs didn't run as fast as foxes, but at least nobody complained!". i laughed.
reckon male chavs are pretty speedy as they get alot of practice running away from cops.
- the old working class are now the new 'lower working class' - the types that live on the dole 'coz its easier' and who proper working class people have no time for
Christ my dad was a manual worker - I'm surprised half of you can bare even to spit on me let alone talk - lol
Chavs make me sick though.
me, from the broken family in luton, and all.
You're from Luton? Wow.
I respect you less than Kubb now.
Okay, I apologise, that's way too harsh.
I just respect you a lot less. :)
I just did too.
All my friends / parents / grannies always know what sort of card to expect from me ever since they were invented...
THAT was a classic thread.
this is just a bit shit
It's not the thread - it's the forum software. REVOLUTION!!! RESOLUTION!!
I'm not really a prole but Im not a toff either. But so long as you do a decent thing for your fellow man then I don't see how anyone can really be judged as being 'good' or 'bad' or '4real' etc - simple I know but I'm over my WC Warrier stage!
that make it a mess haha.
Begone with you.
you've seen other people do it to you so you've taken it on board. clever.
You honestly think I was being serious when calling him that?
I thought you had a brain. Or are you just trying not to look stupid, by digging further?
You have very strange attitudes to people in general. You also have a tendency to contradict yourself without realising.
i've just spent the afternoon answering emails from people living in nasty parts of Kings Cross, Camden Town and Somers Town..
but that doesn't mean we've solved issues here to the extent you can say the "working class" doesn't exist.
chavs cant afford to go on the internet
or co-opted them into the middle class.
don't help anyone. Me = working class. That's not some romantic notion of it my family is just pretty damn poor. Yet I care about the environment/politics etc. I may be an anomoly but don't tar everyone with the same brush. The idealisation of the working class is bullshit though, I'll agree with that. But we're not all scum either.
that's my particular bugbear lately. don't mean to insult anyone. 'even if class doesn't exist, people still get touchy about it' - spot on.
as i have said a fair few times on here, there's people who are cunts, on any particular issue, and people who aren't. all other subsets are, to an extent, unproductively divisive and useless. i believe 'class' is one of these. whether it exists or not, going on about it helps nobody. some 'working class' people care about xyz, some don't, some 'middle class' people do, some don't, it's all bullshit. i will align myself with anyone who shares my views and is willing to consider working towards furthering them.
this sounds dogmatic as hell and traynoresque. but i think such a view-based (as opposed to stupid stuff like how much you earn or what job you do - cf Fight Club) analysis is the best side of traynor's thoughts. the bad stuff is all the crap about how people who are fortunate enough to be supported through their education are ungrateful worthless cunts.
economic sense you arent working class. but in the attitude towards society you are.
working class is more seen as an attitude now, anyone else agree?
its certaintly not cool especially in the arts to accept that you are middle class.
It's a complicated mixture of social values, morals, upbringing, politics and some would say economic situation and family history.
I could argue strongly that I'm working class or middle class.
I don't feel that the idea of class is particularly relevent to me. Even if you could identify someone as a certain class what are you meant to do with tha information?
so here is how the class system is layered in 21st century Britain.
At the bottom, we have the lower working class: transport workers, sewage workers, the service industry, cockle pickers, street cleaners. These days they tend to be first generation immigrants, are reviled by everyone, and without which the whole of society would collapse tomorrow.
Next up we have the middle working class, or the "classic" working class: factory workers, technicians, miners, farm labourers, movers and shifters. As ho_fo said this class has drastically shrunk inside since we sold off all our industry, but they still make up a very large part of the work force.
The upper working class are skilled labourers, or trade: builders, plumbers, electricians, small shop owners. They have been heavily in demand ever since one T. Blair decided pushing everyone into university education was a great idea.
Moving up one level, we have the lower middle class: office drones. They are over-represented, and sometimes earn less money than the upper working class.
The next level is what middle class used to mean: teachers, nurses, social workers, anything tertiary that works with the public. These guys tend to work in the public sector (although this generalisation rings less true every year) and suffer accordingly.
Finally, there is the upper middle class: bankers, lawyers, managers, consultants. They carry a lot of weight in Blair's Britain, and earn huge amounts of money.
You can also include the upper class, but only if you are a pedant: there are about 5,000 people left in this country who can give themselves the title, unless you factor in high level farmers.
Alright? So if we go by jobs rather than background, I would imagine most of you past uni are lower middle class, and hope to eventually gravitate to the middle or upper middle class.
like to see you better, Leon.
Doesn't exist. You're right, it is impossible to categorise the class system neatly; there are so many grey areas, particularly in business. However, people *do* continue to insist on the existence of class, and there are boundaries, whereby you will be treated differently if are on the wrong side of the line. As soon as you admit that it's more complicated than working vs. middle, but that Thatcher was lying through her teeth when she talked about a classless society, then you can begin to get an understanding of it.
and is well explained. but as you say, parsefone, 'if we go by jobs'... and that's not all there is to it. class is like a compound indicator, like the QOLI index or something. because of the complexities of such indicators, everyone has to be measuring them to the same standards. class fails because no fucker actually knows what these standards are, and so people are reduced to whining about it rather than just aligning themselves with those who are working for better things and trying to help their fellow people.
but an addition to the discussion.
I agree with that. My categorisation is based entirely on what you do and how much you earn, not who your parents were, how you speak or which generation immigrant you are. This last factor is becoming increasingly important in defining class I think.
I always considered myself working class due to my dad being in and out of manual labour-type jobs when I was growing up (and before him, generations of his family's men did the same). But your reasoning makes since in reation to today's society, really. So the fact that I work in a building society and live comfortably (though by no means extravagantly) would probably make me one of the first lower-mid class people in our family. I find that quite a strange feeling...
and all you come up with is a strange feeling. shows that it means fuck all! unless you take a historical perspective, but i'm not sure that's right to do because it doesn't promote individual responsibility.
I'm out of my depth with intelligent discussion of this nature. I have a broken hand, y'know
you would be able to intelligently converse with ease, despite your physical debilitation.
i pronounce you a social climber!
with the good grace of a beaten-down, crippled shipyard worker's son who knows his place in life ;-D
that reminds me of this lecturer at uni. he's pretty erudite and speaks poshly and the rest of it. apparently he took the piss out of a girl's essex accent at interview and gave her less preparation time than an eton person.
but also he is apparently the son of a liverpool docker and has practiced to get his current accent.
but i have had several classes with him and believe the allegations.
to come online to properly straighten this thing out.
That should set his sensors a-tingling...
reminds me far too much of my A-level Sociology course.
Is still there.
We just live in an age where people have more disposable income, can get credit easier, and where for some reason working in a call centre is different to working in a factory cos you've got to wear a tie.