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I am dead against these. what are DiSers views? and why?
so I could pounce on them and then argue my point. *nudges*
you'd be liable to be locked up if you didn't have it with you for starters.
secondly do you really want the government doing what a credit card or insurance company does, and running risk analyses on you. the law in this country was innocent until proven guilty when I last looked.
thirdly, the data could be abused, whatever they say. when you sign up for insurance or credit card or whatever, you sign a contract as do they, so eahc knows their bounds. the government has no such code preventint it misusing the data, and anyway they could easily bypass it.look at the phone tapping in america.
i just generally find it disgusting.
use ti to decide whether or not yous hould be treated on NHS is the big one obviously.
but on the other hand they might be quite good
know what i mean?
I just put my full faith in whoever gets elected, I guess I would be pretty annoyed by them for about a day if I had to fill in forms and send off photos and stuff like that.
i totally, 100% trust the government. why wouldn't i? after all, they're our government and you have to support them, otherwise you must be some kind of BLOOD DRINKING VAMPIRE COMMIE NAZI.
I drink chicken blood, i do german history and I still support them.
Ok perhaps it is an extreme measure and certainly those who are unlikely to be affected by terrorism, like from where i live, may be sceptical because of the price and the sheer hassle it can cause. However, if the procedure of getting a card is relatively hassle free and uncomplicated i dont see why we shouldnt take as many protective measures against terrorism as possible. When people argue that their privacy is being tarnished or whatever then they can fuck themselves as far as im concerned because if it is believed to reduce the chances of terrorist atrocities then that opportunity has to be taken.
the government don't TELL us anything about terrorism threads. we're lead to believe They are out there, lurking in the shadows, waiting to get us and destroy our way of life but nothing to substaniate this is ever given.
it's something that we're supposed to base entirely on trust. do you trust Blair & co? I sure as hell don't.
I'm sure I saw one on the announcements board! Does that still exist?
that they will have a negligible effect on combating terrorism. If you think through the bill in its current form, in what way would terrorism actually be affected?
the whole point of terrorists is they are normal people, who emerge to do something atrocious and then run.how is us having our weight and height ona bit of plastic gonna stop that?
Although possibly not as proposterous as my spelling of that word. Did I get it right? Did I? Never mind, on with the argument...
I don't think these cards could really stop people from doing things like the London Underground bombings, as they were normal citizens and an ideological switch just went off in their head.
You can't prevent things like that, I'm sorry.
the barcode tatooed on the back of your kneck that tells people you're legit. Don't worry, they'll help fight terrorism!
I copied off P!nk, roflcopter HOTT.
per se, it's just the various databases that come along with it and the biometric shite i don't like.
the card is relatively insignificant, though it will have implications for stopping people in the street which I don't like.
what matters is the database. unlike all the other stuff you carry, the database will have all your information in one place, and add things like biometrics.
moreover, to add extra information to the database, only the home office has to approve. there is no parliamentary discussion required.
still happy as long as you don't have to pay?
but you have to remember that the written law is independent of the people enforcing it at the time. just because you might trust the current government not to abuse it (i don't) doesn't mean that you would be sensible to trust all potential future governments.
it's quite hard to get things repealed once they're in, comparatively.
Although I have to say, people getting themselves in a strop about "civil liberties" makes me chuckle. I don't think they would be any more of an "invasion of privacy" than any of the hundreds of others that already exist out there, hidden away. They would just be lending a degree of cohesion to the many mechanisms of observation / surveillance that we already have, and in a lot of cases, tacitly consent to.
My main worry with them is the gigantic cost and, set against this, the strong likelihood that they will prove to be of absolutely no use whatsoever. If we're going to spend however-many-million on adopting them then a coherent case for doing so would be nice.
rather than having to hack 10 databases to know everything about you, now people just have to hack one.
the commercial sensitivity of the information is also a consideration.
and you should definitely know what you're talking about if you are going to get in a strop about civil liberties, because it's easy to look like a twat (i have done so several times). but two points swing it for me: the backdoor way that the government are trying to circumvent democracy in the powers that the bill assigns, and, leading on from this, the fact that it doesn't matter what the current government say they'll do with the powers, it matters what potential future governments will be entitled to do.
the cost argument and the ineffectiveness argument do essentially win it on their own, but there is definitely a principled case to be made which shouldn't be obscured by cliches about Orwell and suchlike.
is indeed a very sad trend.
I just worry that it's inevitable in a society where we seem intent on judging everything by the criteria of market economy, including public services. Doing things in Parliament = takes longer and is less efficient, therefore all important decisions should be made by as few people as possible.
Perversely though, the very nature of our Parliamentary system is that it produces strong Governments, thus orchestrating its own downfall, etc etc...
In a few years, all govt departments will be linked up on the IT side. They already know everything there is to know about us right now.
*have friend working on the IT project for the govt right now. It's happening. It really is (ie, govt departments linking up databases... fact).
we shouldn't give them our blessing to do so. which allowing the ID cards bill to pass has essentially done. spineless bastards.
Consumer purchase trends via bank and credit cards... signatures are a thing of the past... it's been going on for ages... it's the information age... too late... the internet.. they know where we are RIGHT NOW!
and 20% information. if you know something, tell us.
I know the management/IT consultants working on the project - truth!
I've faced the fact. Difficult to stop and in a way, it's a good thing.. they will be able to monitor who is ripping off govt systems much better, criminals who travel will be able to be monitored. If you have nothing to hide, essentially it's not going to hurt you.
The days of 'privacy' are fucking long over.. Banks know everything about us already and I can't see it realistically going to change in a hurry - too much support from the govt.
This is the age we live in.
I'd much rather focus on trying to combat global warming and saving our planet from the shite we put into it/onto it every day...
GO FORTH...AND FORNICATE. no wait thats wrong...i meant PROTEST.
'If you have nothing to hide, essentially it's not going to hurt you.'
everyone has stuff to hide.
your closing point is quite right though.
because of course, I worry about the state of the world for my children.
BUT - I do believe the link up is inevitable... and well, our society is quite fucked as it is... we fucked it hard, and the MAN has stuck it back to us. We empowered THE MAN and look at it.
Let's get BUSH back onto the Kyto Treaty (and get rid of him and Blair) and try to do some good for this country, and the rest of them.
and I haven't read this whole thread, but the electronic chips that will be used within ID cards can be scanned illegally from a distance of roughly 20 yards
That doesn't sound like much, but this is hacking technology before the ID cards are even in the public domain. Give it time, and the hacking technology will be far superior to what we know now
So basically, somebody sitting with a laptop at Gatwick airport can potentially gather pretty much every piece of personal information about you while you stroll past. And identity fraud, as we all probably already know, is huge business
So yeah, as it stands, the proposed technology is nowhere near safe enough
invasion of civil liberties, for true, having said that.
Posession of a piece of plastic does not confirm my validity of existance or my right to existance, possesion of certifitication does not determine my right to abide in the land in which I was born, as an animal, into.
(In theory if you travel by your own locamotion I see no reason why one should be subject to any control of movement)
A piece of plastic does not reveal how relevant human you are.
Of course you lot will want certain, things from the entity that does work on pieces of plastic and certification and for you to get these things from them then this control system will ask you to jump through some hoops.
Since the enclosure of common land and due to high population densities, it has become virtually impossible for us to live 'off' the land we were born into, and therefore most of you will require stuff from the control system.
I have learnt the techniques to live of the land in a temporate climate (and still be a veggie) however due to the high percentage of land ownership (how did that happen eh?, and because of attempts by the control system to ensure that people could not sustain themselves from common land and therefore not jump throught the hoops that the control system demands I cannot survive without bits of paper or plastic, however if there were common land or if I had a smallholding then I could survive without them.
It is not in any control systems interest for you all to have whatever freedoms you philosophically decide are right. (Labour Conservative, Lib Dem, Nazi, Soviet Communism, Chinese Communism, whatever)
'Important pieces of paper' (ok they could be electronic or plastic, exist for many other things too.......consider the right that is taken away from you when you are knowledgable about something and really passionate, yet because some twonk has managed to get a good degree, their argument will always be considered the best by 'lay' people because you dont have a certificate, the 'lay' people will be lazy, they will not listen to the argument and try to understand as best they can and then decide who is right, the assumption of 'rightness goes with the certificate
I could make debate mush of many 'lecturers' in history, philosophy, sociology, anthropology whatever, in specific areas, however it means nothing. because I dont have a piece of paper saying I am entitled to be an expert in these areas.
PS I used to rattle these bars all the time when I was younger, but it made me unpopular, and although I tried living as an asthetic for quite a while, I found that the one thing I could not do without was other people, so I gave up being unpopular and ranting, however as you unfortunate people can see, it doesnt lurk far beneath my surface
and thinking that I wanted to go running up a beautiful large hill, some one told me that it was private land and that I would be trespassing (It was not a houses garden or anything)
My mind then went racing off thinking 'but how can someone own it?'
'I'm an animal other animals are on it, i understand if you get too close to an animals den it is entitled to snarl at you to get away, however this was not close to any animals den.......perhaps if I took my clothes off then I would be an animal, not a human with all the legal connetations, but then if I was an animal would the owner/farmer think he had a right to shoot me?, If he had that right would I then have the right to try and defend myself? rip his throut out like a wolf?' But I decided that madness lay that way, so I havn't thought it again...........................................................until now.
Im not sure if Mrs Knees would be less happy with that post than the inane inuendos.
cause it will keep the children out of the bars who are fifteen yet get served when I get IDed. Then I will laugh in their face as they stand and cry before being marched out.
if they don't ID them now, nothing will.
I thought it was going to be a case of having to show it to get in anywhere liek that now anyway, regardless of your age?
Mabye I heard wrongly.
They will not stop terrorists.
They cost a vast amount of money.
They leave room for massive amounts of abuse.
They further marginalise the homeless.
What's not to love?
I resent being made to carry a card to prove my citizenship. It suggests we are all only allowed to live in our own country at the behest of the authorities, which is a completely fucked relationship between citizen and state.