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Race riots in LA on Tuesday then...
that's a terrible misjudgement.
also unnecessary. he's gonna stay in jail, giving him clemency isn't gonna set him free. this is just to satisfy some fucked up section of american society and it disgusts me.
24 years? On death row? What the fuck is going on?
what do you guys think should happen?
what's the difference between that and him being killed? for a supposedly christian country, they do seem very eager to kill him though.
Panic hit the nail on the head
And relatives of victims who demand that the man be killed need their head examined
"After studying the evidence, searching the history, listening to the arguments and wrestling with the profound consequences, I could find no justification for granting clemency," Mr Schwarzenegger said.
how about avoiding a short period of violent anarchy
Well that's also a stupid reason. I shouldn't come down to doing the right thing through threat of violence.
The fact is that after 24 years with the threat of execution a person deserves life imprisonment, especially with that sort of record of being a decent prisoner behind them.
the people on the front line of the undoubted rage that will spill into the streets have no rights?
Like Panic said - clemency just means he stays in jail
that's why I said life imprisonment. I was stating that he should have been given clemency because he deserves that.
The people on the front line? I think you'll find those are the people who voted him in in the first place.
and most probably
although I'm sure that this decision will send YET ANOTHER MESSAGE to the black people of America that their WASP leaders give not one shit about them
Just as I'm sure that plenty of LAPD will be cordoning off the rich neighbourhoods and spoiling for an excuse to fight
The terminator indeed
they should have allowed him to keep on living, it would have been better if he could have been allowed to keep on doing the good deeds he was doing.
also killing people is always wrong, americas "christian values" are a bit fucked up really.
purely because he was famous. What the hell were they thinking?
"Hey! he's Austrian, extremely right wing, how can you go wrong?!"
Okay, that made me LOL in real life.
its true if he wasn't famous he'd never have been elected
oceanRain in all this?
wonder where he's at
Should just add that Arnie is a Politician (ahem) and not a member of the judiciary thus it would be within his mandate to grant clemency on political grounds - such as avoiding a potentially lethal disturbance of the peace.
Well, I hope Tookie's supporters' protest peacefully and that the officers charged with keeping the peace are not of the intimidatory ilk
He should be judged purely on the basis of his crimes.
If there is a reasonable doubt that he is guilty, he should be freed.
It's unjust to use any other reasons.
we're not talking about freeing him
we're only talking about deciding not to kill him - which, given the fact that he is on death row because 'thou shalt not kill', seems like a sane decision all round
It's unjust to all the other 'ordinary' murderers that are executed.
His clemency should be based purely on whether or not there are doubts over his innocence.
the death penalty should be abandoned altogether as inhumane and counter-intuitive to any sense of the law-makers having moral authority over the greater public at large
Besides - it's a 'postcode lottery' - only 38 of the 50 states carry the death penalty
and as recent changes in the attitude to gun ownership in Brasil are beginning to show, removing the means to murder is a far better way to reduce the murder rate than having a death penalty as detterent
and as for the other '"ordinary" murderers' that are executed
shows the number of executions
shows the number of prisoners on death row awaiting execution
whichever way you slice it it's a big smelly dog turd of a problem
but.. no one executed in the 70's? WTF?
also i agree, her should have clemancy. why not? jail forever i say. no good can come of killing him, no good at all
the death penalty between '67 and '77
at which point they ruled various things like that the death penalty for rape was unconstitutional (duh)
is useful if you're interested
I'm personally against the death penalty.
One of the guiding lights of any legal system should be to reflect the wishes of the populace. Evidence suggests that a majority of Americans support the continued use of the death penalty.
is not what we were arguing over.
we were debating whether this particular man should receive clemency or not.
hitler won an election after all.
politics is always in the hands of the least political.
it's quite closely related.
you can look at either under the current system - a kind of internal logic
or by suggesting another method should be in place instead - so that it doesn't matter if that internal logic is in working order.
Well, I still contend that under the statutes of the US the very reason that Arnie has the power to give or deny clemency in a case such as this is that a political argument may outweigh a judicial one - in this case the one cited.
The case of 'Tookie' Williams, for whatever reason, has gone beyond a mere judicial argument into a complex socio-political situation - in fact it highlights certain complexities in this dynamic and therefore certain problems.
One of them is this; Archbishop Desmond Tutu and the Reverend Jesse Jackson say he should be granted clemency - Arnie says he shouldn't. The result? He will be given a lethal injection in a matter of hours
Is this justice? And if so, who does justice serve?
No it probably is not justice.
But it would not be justice to impose clemency on him because of his media profile.
that the majority of british citizens did not want their armed forces backing up the US military in their war against Iraq
...but that's another argument
And that was a war that should never have occurred.
Of course another view is that most people are not qualified enough to make decisions that govern the fate of nations.
WWII was still a war that needed to be fought depsite the widespread oposition to it...
Arnie - if he wanted to - could actually use this situation in a positive way.
He could be very clear that he is commuting the death sentence to a life sentence and not granting a pardon but at the same time be bold enough to suggest that the purpose of the prison system is to rehabilitate society's offenders and bring them into line with law and order - to make them useful citizens again.
In doing this he would be sending a message of reconciliation, avoiding social unrest, showing a superiority of moral judgement rather than an 'eye for an eye' style revenge and might go some way towards quashing the perception of racially based social injustice in his state and the United States at large.
He obviously felt that showing his power was more important
The governor of Illinois did something in a similar vein...
No matter how stupid this case is, no matter how bad Arnie's judgement ultimately was, sentencing decisions should never ever EVER be made on a political basis. It's a recipe for disaster.
Arnie's decision was a political one.
it was aprt of an attempt to be hardline with republicans in california, especially as they are considering relplacing him with mel gibson next year.
At least 35% of Americans disagree with the death penalty.
you guys believe he didnt murder four people?
up to 65% of americans agree with the death penalty or are undecided. them's scary stats.
in this was Arnie by appealing to the American right and the hangers and floggers. Arnie was aware of this obviously and saw this as a gift to his PR campaign.
I'm personally against the death penalty but believe that life should mean life in a lot of cases. Doing the equivalent of a few UK life sentences then being executed is a bit low.
Is anyone else scared of Arnie being a future US president ?
you had to be American to be the President?
you have to have been born in the usa, well that's what kurt vonnegut says.
to change the law, so that repatriotised (is that the word?) Americans can stand for president.
My old housemate (who was mental) thought this was a terrible idea, because a terrorist or someone could end up president. Did I mention he was mental?
In general I am against the death penalty, and I think there should be no capital punishment. However I am for democracy as it is the least bad way of choosing a government, so if Americans want the death penalty or an action film actor as governer that is their choice.
If they are going to have the death penalty there is no better choice of who to execute than this kind of scum. He may have changed his tune, but he never admitted to killing these people or any responsibility for the killings, which is a joke.
There's no way he should've been given clemency when less high profile prisoners would die. That would have been unfair, it would have rewarded his extra specially sick behaviour.
But i'd rather him and any other murderers were kept alive and hopefully helped to become useful members of society.
if a moral judgement has been made that executing him is the right decision, then backing out on that because of the threat of mob violence would be a mistake. Setting that kind of precedent is a really bad idea.
Death penalty is bad (though definitely debatable, and I change my stance all the time, but still bad - even if only in a lesser of two evils way)
BUT if it has been decreed that he will die, he should die, because anything else is a mockery of the law.
And I cannot see what his race has to do with this.
I like how 'You Shall Not Murder' is followed by 'Unless You Eye Up My Wife'. Then god has given the holy rollers an exemption and they're allowed to kill people.