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IMF are the worst people
For all the shitting of the bed thus far... "Greece has not defaulted on any payments."
the shitting part comes from `what might happen` as opposed to `what is happening`.
If Greece GREXITS the Euro, and they need to be lend some money, will they call on Venezuela or someone to shout them some petrodollars?
Also, if they leave the Euro, can they still use the same banknotes for a while or will they have to print some new ones? What a hassle (if the latter)
so they're yours to keep.
Cos it's afully tradeable currency. Think one of the ex-Yugo countries do that. Like lots of countries use the US $. But they'd prolly wanna think about printing their own and having the control that gives, I suppose.
then the other
Would really like to see it happen - perhaps combined with some kind of Varoufakis mic-drop
nothing is overdue and the first repayment isn't due for five more days.
There's so much bullshit posturing and pointless speculation about The Markets™ etc being reported as actual news.
And the figures aren't even that impressive in scale. Much much more of a political, rather than genuinely economic thing.
it's largely about trying to discredit and, ideally, destroy Syriza (or at least the ideas they represent).
please be clearer about what it is
but Brexit feels like crossing the line. Explain.
Brexit sounds French. Bréxsit.
Grexit = probably on balance the right thing to do for the people of Greece
Brexit = probably on balance the wrong thing to do for the people of Britain.
Futile comparing the 2 because they're motivated by 2 completely different forces in 2 completely different contexts.
a genuinely interesting thing has occurred. Europe/lenders were a dick to a country and the country's leaders have basically called them out on it. (That is my analysis)
that previous Greek governments were the biggest dicks of all to the Greek people by corruptly signing them up to the Euro in the first place.
Not saying that the EU haven't caused Greece some needless suffering through being motivated at times in shoring up the Euro seemingly as a piece of political vanity but... the previous Greek leaders have more blood on their hands than the EU does in this instance by my reckoning.
Whilst all roads lead to at least immediate, short-term ruin, the road of assisting Greece in either exiting or at least restructuring some of their debt would be the most helpful. For all concerned too. Any currency union in which FAILURE IS NOT AN OPTION is an immovable force is, frankly, a farce.
Don't know what this means for anything, but it's interesting.
Oh wait I just realised that this article is old...
And Europe shat itself. And conspired to oust the PM. Succesfully.
Europe is clearly shitting itself again, but won't have the stones to topple Tsipras, so my bet is on an extension fudge that strings things out even longer, but saves face for all involved. Time is money and money is time, innit.
Weird War know the score. And they reminded Athens* exactly that in 2013. We should look to Ian Svenonius for the answers more often.
(*Athens, Georgia, admittedly.)
Thank you and goodnight.
Looks like the Greeks are actually backing down. Even agreeing to end their pension protection for older citizens, just asking for it to happen a little slower than the IMF's demanding.
what's going on
on the condition that debt relief is included in the package?
Here's the full letter of the ammendments they wanted, so they're backing down on everything else.
but this would be a brand new deal so could include debt relief. That's the only reason I can think they'd be up for this.
and not the islands thing.
better buy my holiday Euros sharpish before the blasted thing goes up in value against the £ off the back of this.
i bet he hasn't got much sleep recently, and he has to work in this heatwave.
""This government has done nothing since it came into office," Schaeuble said in a speech in the lower house of parliament.
"It has only reversed measures. It reneged on previously agreed commitments. It negotiated and negotiated.""
Syriza were elected to do exactly those things, you wang.
she's pretty stressed out, to say the least.
(that's all i have to contribute to this thread)
O X I !!!!!!!!
don't even know what 'bailout' means
A bit more than 50% of the results in and it looks like it will be a no. Let's just hope this will actually mean something
expecting there to be a lot of discussion over what was actually voted on when the result is confirmed.
Secondly, I'm really saddened that so many 'progressive' types are saluting the OXI vote as the death of the EU and the eurozone with such apparent glee. It's somewhat terrifying that this is where we have come to now, for me at least.
I've seen people saying that it means the EU and the eurozone needs to find a new focus, or a new aim, away from the interests of the corporate/financial world and towards its citizens.
but I certainly feel that french left is extremely happy about the potential fallout of this.
I've been struggling with this debate for a while and have come to the conclusion that whilst the Eurozone has behaved abysmally (especially that piece of excrement Juncker and the utterly vile Dijosselboem), there's a little more to it than the Eurozone 'crushing democracy'.
It's clear that Germany's zealous fear of inflation and Merkel's obstinacy drove this whole thing over a cliff, but Greece also voted, over a series of governments, for policies that were reckless in the extreme. What's happened since has clearly been punishment for punishment's sake, but I can't help but feel that it's a little facetious to say that their democracy was crushed. They voted for certain ideas and parties throughout the 90s and 2000s and the floor can't just be wiped clean and them absolved of responsibility.
Great great power play by Tsipras though, a very shrewd move indeed. I just hope it pays off and they get around the negotiating table again.
and would only sanction a successor who would implement austerity measures of an extreme nature, all to protect corporate and financial creditors who had recklessly lent money in the first place - it's little wonder that many Greeks see the EU and riding roughshod over their democracy.
It's worth noting that a lot of the problems Greece faces are as a result of previous governments falsifying and hiding debt. I don't think the population voted for that.
And I want to make it very clear that I'm siding heavily with the Greeks and Syriza.
But there's no denying that when times are good, less questions get asked. If there's credit and they can get a loan to start a business or buy a house or send your child to university, then that's what matters to most people. and when that disappears, as it did 5 years ago, things that were hidden in plain view become very obvious all of a sudden.
I just hope that there's a decent resolution to all of this which sees the Greeks kept in the fold and treated properly. Tsipras is a brave man, but he's also still a politician and what he did was as much a political move necessary to save him and his party as it was a move designed to strengthen his negotiating position. It was clever and bold and it has saved him, but it's only to be hoped that it also ends up saving his country. That's the real test of the next few days.
Seems incredibly high to me.
The governments position in the EU is not stronger. The Greek banks will be in meltdown next week.
Start printing Drachmas now.
A big plank of the Troika's strategy was that they could, and would, force out Syriza if necessary.
They'd find it very hard to justify doing that again now.
What happens when there's a full-scale financial shutdown, when the current banking situation extends, when the civil service aren't paid?
It could all get pretty unpleasant for all involved pretty quickly. That's the problem with all the brinkmanship practiced by the troika during the last months and years, and now finally in the last days by Syriza. It could resolve this, but it could also risk making things very much worse. It feels like the cuban missile crisis or something. Calm heads need to prevail.
when the ruling party is so obliquely telling people to vote for a particular result.
I think we should take Greece's Euro Cup win off them and let them off with the debt.
but there was also all the media and all the other parties and all the political establishment and all the European leaders urging them to vote 'Yes'
in these kind of referendums.
And as ohgood says below, the entire mainstream media, the establishment and virtually every other political party were running a full campaign for a 'Yes' vote.
marckee wrote below when he should have put above. What are we going to do about it?
2 week motorbike tour of the pyrenees I reckon, maybe catch some of le tour.
will just point his motorbike at the horizon and go where Lady Luck takes him, and then he's got a week booked in the Pyrenees.
otherwise he'll need to double-back, which would waste a lot of his holiday time
democracy only interesting and kind of cool
I know about the togas and Zeus and stuff, specifically all of the financial things that have been going on in the last few years.
*lol let's not pay any tax*
'oh noes we have no money!'
something like that, i think.
Crockery doesn't grow on trees.
were given lots of money by German banks but hid the extent of the debts and deficits from the public accounts. Greece's entry into the Euro also drove up the cost of their exports, creating a widening trade deficit. When the US-created credit crunch and financial crisis hit, the supply of credit needed to service those debts dried up, and the value of the assets used as collateral plummeted.
The EU, IMF and ECB (nicknamed the 'Troika') agreed to lend Greece money so that they could pay back the large financial institutions that were their creditors, on condition that Greece implemented a harsh, austerity-driven fiscal policy and privatised (sold off) much of their assets and government operations.
As has been seen throughout the world, instigating austerity, especially to this scale, effectively chokes off growth, leads to huge rises in unemployment and underemployment, dramatic falls in living standards, and crucially, reduced government income and therefore its ability to reduce their deficits.
A new government was elected in Greece on a platform of wanting to restructure their debt and ending the austerity-driven policies, which would necessitate a renegotiation with the Troika.
But with a slight addition: Greek banks got huge lines of credit when Greece joined the EU which they then proceeded to extend to business and homeowners in Greece. Result - a lot of bad loans which then grew as the crisis increased. The Southern European states suffered a sub prime crisis on the same lines as the US one, but a lot of the loans were less residential and more focused on business/tourism investments. The US was the fuse, but there were bombs everywhere.
The ECB has basically been keeping the Greek banks alive since the initial shock. That's why the capital controls were enforced this week, in fear of that funding disappearing in the very near future and there being a genuine multi bank run of an entire financial system, which hasn't really been seen since Argentina or Japan in the 1990s.
you are of course correct, there wasn't a run.
"I shall wear my creditors' loathing with pride"
:'''''''''''''') i love you yanis
Make it sustainable, let them try and recover on their own terms.
It's gonna pinch all the EU countries a bit but it's better all round than a Grexit or the banks refusing them more credit.
write all the debt off ffs
seems like greece will be grexiting tonight
the idea that Greece would have hand over €50bn in assets to Luxembourg to be sold off is ludicrous and the kind of idea a jerk would come up with.
The neoloberalists have accidentally ruined their neoliberal project perhaps.
it is shocking innit - an international body dismantling any modicum of democracy and loudly, openly forcing a humanitarian crisis inside europe.
properly desperate 'end days of capitalism' stuff
I think Tsipras should just find a bar and drink.
He's going to be fucked over whatever happens.
honestly - i feel that i have no choice apart from to vote for exiting the EU in the upcoming referendum now. there is now an incredibly strong left wing argument for not supporting an institution that behaves like this
He cannot allow what they are proposing.
Force Grexit and resign. Its the only way out.
what actually happens in the case of GREXIT? i read earlier in the week that they literally couldn't introduce an alternate/parallel currency (purely due to the lack of printing machines etc). bitcoin?
but say you have to write a 'BL', so it says '10 BLEURO' on it to make it legal tender
to give it time to think about its behaviour.
Selling off 50billion Euros of State assets.
A real shame for the Greek people.
They just got pressured into agree(k)ing to all the shit austerity measures.
Athens gets to choose how and where it's done etc but when they're being forced to cut so much, yes it's a total afront to democracy.
more like Varou-fuck this! (I only just thought of this, but it would've been good if I'd said it on the day he resigned)
the IMF are being weird
strange things are afoot