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that word would be the one to come to mind for someone his age, but that could be cos I went to a state school in London
the go-to phrase in the US.
like that wouldn't be the term that comes naturally to him but he though 'coloured' and 'people of colour' was the same thing
I learnt my lesson on here. (although I am disturbingly pleased at myself whenever I use the correct phrase......so I obviously still have to do some work on myself)
so he prob grew up with it being used when it was more acceptable.
Easier and less contentious.
the cumberbatch family had "at least seven" plantations
Ill-chosen word in the throes of conversation and now he's getting a bollocking for it.
Actually, fuck it: I don't feel sorry for him. He's famous and minted and it'll all be forgotten in a few days
What's the difference between 'coloured' and 'people of colour'?
I don't mean in the in historical sense cos of course coloured is outdated with negative connotations, but of what the phrase actually says.
Cos often when people say coloured is inappropriate it's in the 'we're not coloured, we're black' sense as it's describing people inaccurately (and I've seen that being said today in the wake of this).
But if that's the case how is saying 'they are coloured' or 'they are a person of colour' any different?
I'm not defending or justifying the use of coloured btw - just curious how two terms that are basically that same in meaning can have such different connotations. Is it solely down to historical use?
Which must be about 1000x worse.
PoC is a legitimate abbreviation
but if white people wanna dictate what self-identifying people of colour can and can't say when referring to themselves then whatever
if a white person on DiS uses it it smacks of generalisation, almost like saying 'non-IC1s' or something
also it's by no means the same but neither is your terrible example
and although it could be argued that it's interchangeable with other terms it's arguably important that the term exists when talking about community and inequality and privilege and politics and theory - it's not putting all people of colour under the same umbrella necessarily either when you acknowledge that there are levels of privilege/passing/whiteness/antiblackness ....... buhhhhhh
like i see why some white people feel awkward cause they interpret it to be homogenising but, like, this isn't about white people's identity, y'know?
whereas of course in the States it's very much the term to use.
(Which probably just adds a secondary and less significant layer of "who are we to dictate terms?" as per your replies above.)
who feel like they're sticking it to the man because they don't do 'Political Correct'. These arch wankers think using terms like this instead of the one they grew up with - e.g. person with a disability, instead of a disabled person - somehow makes them less of a normal, red-blooded full-on Clarkson scumbag. Because they are absolute bellends. These people run things like The Daily Mail and the Murdoch media empire and so they push their utter contempt of anyone isn't like them onto people all the time.
Although when it comes down to, I'm not going to let off bellends who feel awkward using the correct term just because they've not managed to think outside the constant awful background radiation of right-wing media.
where PoC will allow you a lot more to say. Aside from that I'm not sure what you're arguing. Shorthands to refer to groups aren't usually an issue unless you're being negative about those groups and in most cases the use of PoC will be seen to show you are attempting quite the opposite.
I think it's fair to be wary of it, as I've no actual idea if it's an acceptable term outside of other white people telling me it is.
coloured is a slur that is/was used to exclusively refer to black people for hundreds of years
people of colour is a term used BY people of colour to refer to non-whites, inclusive of all non-white races
that it was a slur, and were not meaning it as a slur.
I think a lot of people actually used it as a term that they thought was good....mainly because the people that WERE openly racist and hostile used far more extremely slurring language.
I agree that once the message that the word 'coloured' can be interpreted as being a slur, has been spread to you then you should cease to use it, but if the message has not reached the user of the term, then it is probably inappropriate to accuse people of racism on that basis alone
An older generation who are out of touch might genuinely think that 'coloured' is the 'polite' term to use, whereas Cumberbatch doesn't really have that excuse.
seemed like it was a slip of the tongue when he meant to say 'people of colour'. I'm sure he knows that 'coloured' is outdated & offensive.
what do I know though.
Also he's younger than me, FFS. He knows it's not the right term, or should. There are no 'get outs' around his generation.
Unless you're suggesting he intentionally said something on national US television to offend people, which given the context of his words seems highly unlikely.
then the point is kind of moot, as in he didn't set out to say something offensive.
I have no idea how long it took for him to issue an apology.
If he just used the term without thinking because he didn't realise it was offensive, then it's kind of amazing that anyone couldn't know it wasn't right given his age and his really quite wide access to the world out there.
I have seen some trauma recently over how to describe peoples from the Far East which was a result of Dave Whelan's comments. Obviously, the term he used is way off limits but I alos learned that 'oriental' is considered touchy as well. Language and attitudes change but it takes a while for people to catch up
it's takes time for language changes to filter through to the general populace.
Oriental is an interesting one as I think it's fairly recent and lots of people wouldn't consider it inappropriate and use it entirely innocently. It was only a few years ago I even heard it was considered wrong. There was a rug shop in Kentish Town that until last year was called 'The Orientalist' and the only person I know who uses it regularly is a Thai woman so I think there's still a large grey area in perception to the word.
I don't think it's particularly grey at all. My perception is that our society seems to think racism directed towards people of (I guess) SE Asian descent isn't as bad somehow. Look at all that awful 'ch***y' bullshit that UKIP guy spouted and it wasn't treated as somehow different to using the N-word. And people were sticking straw hats on their heads and pulling their eyes back for a long time after blacking up was a no-no.
(To be fair I think our society is getting better at recognising racism of all types.)
The word 'oriental' describes something 'from the east' as the word 'occidental' describes something from the west. As such, the term has been used to describe people that have their origins in The East. If it has been dodgy for decades then there are millions of people who haven't realised.
And that is very long way from pulling back eyes and taking the piss out of waiters
If you did a survey of people of all races about offensive words I bet very few would say oriental and if it had been dodgy for decades much more people would be aware it can be seen as such.
It's not fair to compare it to 'ch**ky' or eye pulling - do that in front of someone from SE Asia and compare the reaction if you say Oriental. I bet they'll be very different.
People I know from SE Asia either use it or certainly aren't offended by it. Maybe there's a difference between UK and USA?
and I genuinely, either in real life or the media, have never seen/heard oriental used as a slur.
But it's clearly problematic
and also confused
is still ok as a word to describe /things/, but not people. Similar to Scotch, I guess.
I stand to be corrected. But the fact we're having this conversation is kinda proof in and of itself that knowledge about the inappropriate use of Oriental is no way near as widespread as it is for Coloured.
It's also hugely vague with 'The East' beginning with Turkey, IIRC (hence The Orient Express).
It's interesting that Wikipedia claims Oriental is bad in the US but a standard term for SE Asia in British English with no negative connotations. I've honestly never heard the word used by someone in speech, apart from your Australian Knighted Princes and the like, and only really seen it used written down in stuff that's from the early 20th Century or apes that period.
but when would you use it? Would you actually think to describe someone as 'oriental'? It seems weird to me and just brings up racist images twinned with the word 'Chinaman' like something out of Tintin and the Blue Lotus.
I'm sure I would have used the word in innocence. And very consciously as well because I would have been ensuring I chose a word without any racist overtones.
The more I read about this, the more I'm starting to think that it is the guilt-ridden occidentals that are marking the word out as offensive.
No. But that's cos I'm now aware that some people consider it offensive so I wouldn't to be polite.
Have I in the past and if I didn't know about potential offense would I still use it entirely innocently without meaning to be offensive? Yes.
I know what you mean about the Tintin example and I do think it's quite old fashioned which is prob another reason why I wouldn't use it.
And yes, "Oriental" has been dodgy for ages. Just that millions of people haven't realised doesn't make it less so.
There's a huge number of people who just exist in their own bubble and have no idea (or interest) about what's happening in gender, race, sexuality politics.
because most young people learn what words are and aren't appropriate online, in discussions that are largely American. And race politics in the US has a very different history and present than over here.
Personally, I've never heard a black or Asian British person use the term 'person of colour'. I have heard lots of Americans use it. I'm not really comfortable using it until/unless it becomes widely used by black and Asian people over here.
I think much of the 'Person of Colour' self-identity is linked to the users of that term as also identifying as American. It's a really powerful term of solidarity, but I'd argue that a lot of that power is because the American identity is also so strong- to stand as a collective of non-white Americans really means something.
In British culture it's maaaybe a little bit different, with some of the large non-white immigrant populations more transient (and certainly more recent) than in the states, so the term 'Person of Colour' could seem totally reductive, as the second generation African-Caribbean experience is so different to the fourth generation Pakistani experience, for example. This will also be the case in the states of course, but probably less so, as our race issues are so closely twinned with debates about immigration and how much right certain communities have to be here etc, while the American identity is arguably offered more freely to the few who manage to legally immigrate there (in the experience of white British, South American and Indian family members who have immigrated there).
Also, and this is an assumption so someone set me straight if I'm wrong, but the UK may have proportionally larger vulnerable white minorities than the US- I'm thinking specifically about Traveller communities and recent immigrants from Eastern Europe. This could be another factor in reducing the effectiveness of the term 'Person of Colour' in the UK.
And how it's been used.
If 'people of colour' is a chosen rather than an imposed term then it's appropriate to use.
If it's a term that hasn't been used to marginalise then this makes it doubly so.
Things are fluid and change, and are different in different countries, and it sounds like he wasn't aware of the difference and has apologised, so I don't think it's something to beat him over the head with, and hopefully it'll make more people aware of the distinction.
some tall, posh bloke with slicked back hair in a bar using the term "coloured" you would think "What a complete prick". I'm not cutting him any slack just because he's in Sherlock. He's a prick.
How dishy is he?
actually you know what I can guess close enough and I don't want confirmation
Why? Is he that bad? Fairly decent actor isn't he?
(he's just a bit... "Look! He's... acting!", and I REALLY REALLY wanted it to be Pedro Pascal
though I stand by the original statement too
now it makes more sense
I definitely wouldn't think they were a prick. There'd be a little https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2P5qbcRAXVk in my head, but that would be about it.
and this is pretty much perfect.
"SEE! I told you all. Prick"
at approx 52 and 54 seconds we get to see looks of disdain and disgust on Harry and Pauls faces.....practice perfecting these, and apply them when encountering cumberbatches name or visage
Don't see the issue with stuff like this when it is a genuine mistake. Also wonder how people know what the consensus is as terms seem to constantly change. I was on a diversity course at work and they said mixed race was no longer used as it has negative connotations of mixed up, and that dual heritage was the correct term, I didn't know that and in in that group, it's not like we get a newsletter. Wouldn't care if someone refered to me as coloured either if they didn't have bad intentions.
Side point on this diversity course it started with the trainer saying 'we all have unconscious bias, for instance I don't like to sit next to Asian men on the underground and think fat people are lazy' pretty shocking
I know, I think the purpose was to get everyone to face up to their unconscious bias to be able to correct for it, and this was trying to get people to open up, definitely thought it was going too far
on diversity courses. I've never heard anyone use it outside that context.
because I feel like people who aren't up to date with the acceptable terms will think that I'm being racist as it's too close to coloured (pray for the straight, white man).
I used it recently.
I think it's very easy to assume that everyone knows exactly what the current acceptable terms are but, frankly, they don't and it's not surprising given how quickly things change and also how things differ in other countries and cultures.
Well-educated man with talent and public profile = slip of the tongue, he MUST have been groping for the current acceptable term..
Working class man with no job = ignorance, needs educating in what is and is not acceptable IN THIIIS DAAAY AND AAAAGE ...
what a monster
asked me if Vivian had been up to see Ken who sits next to me and has Chinese heritage, I said I didn't know who Vivian was but a lady did speak to Ken earlier on, she asked me what she looked like and I said 'she was Asian', and she said, 'What sort of Asian?' and I said, 'erm...' (I'm white). She laughed and said, 'was she brown like me or was she like Ken?' I said, 'she was like Ken'
I think the main thing is never to assume that somebody of colour is going to be ok with you using anything other than the most appropriate terms of any relaxation of that needs to come from their example or encouragement. Slightly extreme but true example- I have a friend and when I met her, my other friend Jules was like 'this is Lesbian Chinkie Fiona, we sometimes call her Chesney' and this wasn't Jules being a monster, LCF appears to like being called this. Not everybody is so immune to offence though. I would never call somebody a chinkie although I did use the word the other day at home when running through potential take away options for dinner. Just popped out before I could think about it- it's pretty ingrained in the west of Scotland. Bad.
Glasgow and the West is atrocious for the careless use of racist terminology. people who absolutely should and DO know better use words like 'chinky' and 'paki' and although schools are trying theiur best, it's hard when kids are gong home to older siblings / parents/ grandparents who still sue these terms without batting an eye. I had a client last week describe somebody of mixed race as having had 'a wee bit of the tarry brush'. It's a serious problem and there's a disturbing lack of appreciative response when you say to people that they can't say things like that.
yeah shows how Asian to also describe Far Eastern/SE Asian people as well as north African/Middle-Eastern people is confusing. It's more of an American thing we've imported fairly recently.
Wouldn't want to offend anyone by using it's actual name, obviously.
often refer to 'people of colour' on here? She must be feeling pretty bad right about now.
and a character in that describes black people as Libyans and white people as Norse. Think we should start doing that.
Really did not get all of the 'oh a million female hearts have broken' thing that happened when he announced his engagement. A very average/ strange looking man with no sex appeal at all.
if he was that guy in finance with the funny name no one would care.
BENZEDRINE CUMBERBATCH: Oh man I'm on so much benzedrine right now
FARTIN FREEMAN: But we have to solve a mystery (POOOOORRRRPPPP)
BENZEDRINE CUMBERBATCH: Cor blimey trousers I think it was yr rotten guffs that killed the man
FARTIN FREEMAN: Makes sense (POOOOORRRRRPPPPP)
I mean as someone's who always lived in the UK I've never heard the phrase "person of colour" used in conversation. I think particularly when you're in a situation where you have to adapt to going between British and American linguistic contexts then this sort of thing can be expected to happen occasionally.
Even though he's married now (not to me) </3