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"you've got a car so maybe you can go and pick it up instead, otherwise I'll have to get the bus"
fuck off prick
What can I help you with?
"Oh. You're going to IKEA?"
you could in theory rent a car for situations like that. but no one would because it's such a massive ball-ache.
People do use it as an reason for not having a license at all though. I did, until I FINALLY took my test last year.
I never really believed it though. Not in my heart of hearts.
can understand not having a car (I don't) but can't understand not wanting a license.
Once you pass 30 the prospect of starting lessons again and having to do them before/after work is massively off-putting. It's also quite intimidating/embarrassing to get into a car and learn to drive when you're older.
I opted for the "It's not worth it!!" excuse.
But I've got a license now so I can admit I was lying to myself.
started taking lessons for the first time just before i turned 30. dont find it intimidating or embarrassing. would have found it much more scary at 17
Aged 17, I didn't really think about things like how easy it'd be for me to kill a cyclist if I made a minor mistake.
Also, I was far less conscious of how much it was costing, because my Mum was paying. Over 30, I couldn't really entertain the idea of failing as I didn't have the time or cash.
I also wasn't conscious of other motorists looking at me and shouting "haha - look at that old person learning to drive!"
I'd be shit scared of getting in one and crashing due to lack of experience, surely?
Every time I get back in a car to drive I shit myself for the first 5 minutes, after that it is absolutely fine.
We use that. Pretty simple.
I have no idea what percentage of their items they don't deliver, but it's clearly enough of the items we want to force us to collect.
you should try it with a car. it'll blow your mind how easy it is.
I got a van back from Croydon IKEA when we moved into our flat. £30 with nearly a grands' worth of furniture in the back. Wouldn't have been able to do it with a car.
that counts as a car you big phoney
we're talking about trying to get a chest of drawers home on the bus.
doesn't affect you ability to bring massive bits of furniture home from IKEA
You're reliant on someone else to drive for you
Once you're done shopping, there are a lot of ways to get heavy items back if you don't drive. It's very easy. Like I said.
hang on... who was driving the van?
waiting to drive you anywhere outside Croydon IKEA for less money it would have cost you to hire a van.
a man with a van drove us back. £30. Easy.
being the sole reason to drive in London. This weekend I also used it to go to Screwfix, Wickes and Merton tip.
Try doing that on the Tram.
And 3 crates of beer from Majestic
I think if I owned my own home and needed to go to places like that, it'd be handy. Likewise, if I had kids I think you pretty much need a car at some point, probably (or at least I'd want to get one). But honestly can't see any reason why I'd keep a car in London right now.
We're expecting a child and the thought of picking up the wife from hospital in an Uber made me wince.
and was about to ask why you didn't buy a house if you had that much money to burn.
I don't think it's possible to spend 30k in IKEA to be honest.
Just as easy for you to top-up your Oyster card, unfold your mini bicycle, ride to the nearest tube station, fold it back up, get on the tube, stand there for half an hour, get off the tube, unfold your mini bicycle again, ride to get what you need, carry it on your shoulder, on your mini bicycle, back to the station, fold it up again, stand up, for half an hour, get off the tube, unfold your mini bicycle once more and ride home with the parcel on your shoulder again.
with no negatives at all
i feel like a virgin amongst pornstars
Might start an indiegogo to help fund my driving lessons, actually.
£1- a picture of me and a car of your choice
£10 - a drawing of a car with passengers of your choice drawn by me.
£50 - a observational ride in the back seat during one of my lessons.
£100 - a personal road trip (within UK) when I get my license
£500 - sex in a car of your choice (lol jks)
Maybe. Would need to see examples of the artist's work.
What's wrong with you?
(and rightly so)
he's got a point though. unless you're poor, you're just being a dickhead.
And, tbh, my experience of Manchester was that cars still weren't essential assuming your journey to work was on a regular bus and your mates were within 30 mins walk. A city like Leeds is really nice and compact and I can't imagine you really need a car if you're a city kid.
dunno just seems a bit like saying I don't need to learn how to swim since I don't live near a pond.
just learn how to drive ffs
In this country? Needed to swim, like a situation where I haven't gone to the swimming pool? None. We have shit weather and very cold seas.
See, your analogy is shit. And don't you live in Scotland where you'd need to lard up to go near any open water?
can you swim?
It's just not a particularly useful skill outside of an Australian beach.
Swimming is a fairly useful skill to have. You basically can't go near any open water in case you slip otherwise.
And boats must be fucking awful if you can't swim.
I'm sure of it because I couldn't swim until I was about 9 or something, because my mum can't swim. I can tell you my mum has been on boats and near open water.
Let me check this, do you avoid going near cliffs or high walls or getting in planes because you can't fly?
sound strangely convincing.
don't encourage him
you don't have to have a car, maintain a car or anything like that, but you could still be able to drive.
serious though, I'm surprised at the lack of sympathy to the idea that the whole business might be too expensive for a lot of people.
and it is expensive so of course not being able to afford it is a real issue.
However there are a lot of people for whom it isn't an issue, or they prioritise some other things or have no will to want to learn. They are the parasites who fail as human beings and hold back the human race.
basic lessons to get you started and able to run a car, then family, friends etc can all teach you from then on. My Dad started teaching me at like 14 so I guess it's a bit different, but I've taught two people as a favour once they were able to do the basic stuff.
And you have to be able to stand to be in the car with them.
I learnt to drive at 17, passed my test. But I didn't like doing it very much (unlike my friends who were constantly borrowing their parents cars). I then went off to Uni/ work in London for 4/5 years and didn't drive at all in that time. I then started driving again and felt like I was starting from scratch. Took a long time for me to feel safe/ confident. 18 years later and no problems at all driving - but I think you should only learn to drive if your going to clock up a decent amount of hours/ miles behind the wheel straight after passing to get your confidence up
But I went to Amsterdam and my Mum had had enough of paying for me to learn
Siblings never drove. Never saw it as a necessity.
that seems mental
and that means it's entirely possible.
Living in London helped but if I started driving lessons now I would literally need to be talked to like a child because having never been around cars when I was growing up I know NOTHING about them.
it would have cost me like, £60 to get here from Manchester on the train........................what do you mean petrol money?"
£40 for a brand new transit with 20 miles on the clock.
Was scared as hell at first but once I'd done about 15 miles on the A1 I felt indestructible. Loved shouting at people/moaning about the cost of diesel etc.
you need to have a licence a minimum amount of time before you can?
It'll tell you on your licence what you can drive legally (I have a pre-1997 one which means that I can drive non-HGV trucks and 15-seater minibuses on a normal driving licence).
Hiring companies usually have their own restrictions, for insurance purposes, like a minimum age or minimum time since passing your test, things like that.
...to be over 25 and have passed your test at least a year ago I believe.
There was no public transport at all and the town was half an hour's drive from anything more exciting than a bus-stop.
I passed in November 1996.
i didnt realise you were quite so ancient
I'm about as old now as Theo was when he started posting on DiS.
take it as a complement to your youthful visage and killer abs
you look older than both of us with that big beard. ;-)
if you have one.
I think you must be able to start straight away otherwise apprentice tradesmen wouldn't be able to get around.
Compared with older licences: https://www.gov.uk/old-driving-licence-categories
I just don't think you can be an adequate husband or parent without a car.
Scene: It's Saturday lunchtime, you're watching Footi Focus, the kids are getting restless, they want to go out, 'Daddy, daddy, take us to Chessington Garden Centre (they're boring kids). You live in, say West Byfleet, it's too far to get a return taxi, public transport is a no no. What do you do? I'll tell you, you make your excuses, you carry on being a loser, your wife puts up with it silently for a few years, then bang, she's nobbing Joe from work, and he's looking after your kids, and when they start kicking up a fuss he's taking them to Chessington Garden Centre in his brand new BMW 4 Series Gran Coupe.
Will definitely learn as soon as I impregnate the gf
cos i dont want to have to learn with a deadline hanging over me when contraception fails
you would have to be crazy to go to Chessington Garden Centre from West Byfleet - that's a trip on the M25!
There's a nice on on the Seven Hills Road or a choice of Squires in either Addlestone or Hersham and a plethora out Chobham way. Of course none of these are accessible without a car.
and then you can give the kids a run around the gardens and as I'm sure you know they have butterflies in the greenhouse at the moment.
Wow, time really flies.
Must remind my wife (I'm only the plus one on the membership) to book us a time slot.
you have to have memberships for garden shops in the UK? Talk about mental.
I find it quite an enjoyable thing to do. Driving is fun.
than having to catch the fucking trap wagon everywhere.
Especially the subthread on hiring a van
35 years old. time to get a motorbike and a tattoo I think. I've already started fishkeeping.
Anything else that will help cosign me to a middle age of depressing cliches?
I have started playing Noise Music Concerts
that one's a bit more niche though
My girlfriend drives at the moment, I should get my license back in a few months all being well. I would have been fucked without it as an 18 year old, I lived in suburbania so would have been stuck getting pretty much anywhere. I have been OK without it in work as I am generally walkable or via bus (although now the bus is proper shite - 30 min drive beats over an hour with two buses). I don't know how we would manage without a car where we are generally. I have found with a kid it is difficult if it is just me and her, we are stuck walking to the few parks or kiddy places nearby or a short bus ride away, so being able to drive out and go somewhere interesting would be awesome.
I know people who manage fine in London without a car (I doubt they could physically put it anywhere for starters), they rent one if they are seeing relatives or going cross country. Works out better than a train for them both often, plus they can get a pick of a cool one if they so choose.
Leadfoot? Or drink driver?
Speaking of which:
Blanket ban of a year for such a medical "episode". Annoying as I could drive again for a few months, then I went and had another spack attack. Medication has sorted it but they are quite a stickler for the rules.
I've still never driven on "the mainland".
Someone take bets on when y'all think I will.
as per usual
"Oh. 're u going to that Surrey cruising spot?"
so surely you CAN pick it up
but why should I?
Both of the people I taught passed.
They also slept with me at some point too, so, y'know.
I wanna live somewhere where it's not necessary
as a basic adult life skill and my knee jerk reaction is to find it a bit odd or wussy if people can't or won't. This ia framed by my own experience though of growing up somewhere where having a car was important for getting around. My mum, dad and aunt shared the responsibility of teaching me the bbasic and then I had a few lessons before putting in for my test. Although I'm scathing about those who don't drive, if I look back honestly, I was terrified learning to drive and hated it. It never occurred to me to give up though as I would be turning 18 as the only 18 year old in town unable to drive. When I moved to Manchester I didn't take my car as I realised quickly that it's not needed if you live centrally. Same with living in London. When I got back to Scotland it took me a few months of nervous driving to be able to feel happy driving again. I also appreciate that not every is in a position to be taught by family, pay for lessons/ test and access to a car to drive after passing (as that's when a lot of the real learning really happens). So, when I think about it, my reaction to non drivers is quite narrow minded. I still think however that unless you always want to rely on public transport or taxis, at some point you should prioritise it as a thing to achieve. *shakes pompoms for alcxxk for going for it*
I didn't mean to make you feel bad. Is it not about priorities? People go without certain things so that they have the £ to learn to drive/ run a car because that is more important to them than those other things? It's ok to have different priorities.
I always wax on about one year going on a lovely driving holiday, and the only time I've ever done it was when, by necessity, I had to drive myself through Egypt one time, and it wasn't enjoyable. I can't remember the last time I drove on =holiday. (Oh wait yes- we did a Scottish driving trip back in September. It was brilliant. Silly me.)
Its the blurst of both worldz.
I quite like the Tube
I'm v often not in a fit state to drive
Its fucking shocking for the environment
I'm never going to have kids probably so dont care about the practicalities of that.
Anything you buy can be delivered these days.
What if you won a car on a gameshow or something?
“I'm selfish, impatient and a little insecure. I make mistakes, I am out of control and at times hard to handle. But if you can't handle me at my worst, then you sure as hell don't deserve me at my best.”
don't live somewhere I need a car, not intending to do so anytime soon
enjoying people getting frothy mouthed about it tho
but such an amazing thing to get frothy mouthed about. why won't you spend months and a small fortune learning to drive this petrol/money-guzzling deathtrap? what's wrong with you!
I think it's interesting that Japes draws a parallel between learning to swim and paying thousands of pounds to learn to drive something that costs you thousands of pounds and hundreds a year in upkeep. And he does this by implying that possibly drowning if you accidentally encounter unexpected deep water away from help is equivalent to finding yourself a bit inconvenienced by not being able to drive.
I also like all the complaining fucks in here who brought the situation on themselves by no doubt being all, "I really like driving, let me drive us to X," in the early days of being a driver.
Driving lessons are expensive, but I don't think they're in the region of thousands of pounds, assuming you take about 20 hours of lessons to pass your test.
Also, what's the point of learning to drive then not driving because you don't own a car and hence being utterly shit. Maybe it's okay if you live in the middle of nowhere, but in London you're going to need a good year's worth of driving to have any hope.
to drive in because traffic is so slow.
Learning to swim is probably more expensive than learning to drive, if you have lessons.
I don't have a car or drive in London because it's expensive, usually quicker by public transport, and cars are bad for the environment and socially destructive, but that doesn't mean that it hasn't been useful to be able to drive or hire a van when I've moved home or needed to shift some furniture.
Sure, it's not cheap to learn, but I think people lucky enough to have grown up in cities sometimes forget that huge areas of the country are incredibly isolated and isolating if you don't have access to a car.
Because most schools will do it as part of their time (mine did) and you can learn at a very young age.
Driving will always be expensive to learn and expensive to do.
I'm not having a go at people who live out of cities. I'm having a go at people who think you're somehow weird for not learning to drive.
and we never did it again despite having a school pool. I had private lessons for years, which got me up to 'breast stroke with face out of water and not quite drowning' stage, before my parents agreed that I was a land lubber as opposed to water baby. I'm a really bad swimmer. I might get some adult lessons actually.
with access to a pool. Lots and lots of schools don't, plus lessons with school are rarely adequate compared to proper streamed lessons.
my point with the swimming was trying to equate it to a useful skill to have. you don't need a car in london right now, but what if you move? what if you go on holiday? what if you need to rent a van? what if your work needs you to drive somewhere?
I just think "oh I can get a bus to work" doesn't invalidate learning to drive as a useful skill.
the fact they can't doesn't even factor into the above choices...
• you can hire a removal company / get a willing pal or relative to drive a van
• they wouldn't holiday in places you'd need to drive (I've never driven to a holiday or driven while on holiday and I *can*drive)
• van rental is mainly for moving right? see above
• if you can't drive, you wouldn't be applying for jobs which require it; if most jobs you're applying for / in your field require driving as a skill, well then there's a reason
it's so easy! just pass your test. you do it once and that's you until the end of time.
I just don't get not doing it.
see below. 47 hours average proper lessons at £20 each = £940 just for lessons alone. and then what if you needed more and don't have access to anyone who can help you?
my boyfriend can't drive and i'd love him too but we can't afford it.
when i learnt i was at school and had all the free time in the world. if i learnt now, it'd have to be in the evenings when instructors and booked up or at weekends which are always very busy
aye, so learn when you're at school and you have loads of free time.
there'll be a million reasons why someone can't learn to drive, fine. but there's people suggesting if you have the choice between learning and not then you're as well just not bothering because there are buses in london.
• cost will be extremely prohibitive
• it won't be necessary and just wouldn't be the "done" thing
i don't get why you can't see this. it's pretty simple.
i think they're just saying it's not really as big a deal as you're making out (for them, personally)
You're arguing not being able to drive is inconceivable. That's the problem.
Not being able to drive is just one of those things. I'd like to be able to drive but if I'd tried to learn at 16 but I'd have had to use all the money I had to learn to drive and we wouldn't have been able to afford a car for me, so I'd have been borrowing my step dad's one when he wasn't using it. And even then, I wouldn't have needed it. School friends learned to drive and then...didn't drive anywhere (London, yeah?).
I'm arguing that not wanting to be able to drive is inconceivable
Who the fuck ever saw a mile long traffic jam on the moterway as they sped by on the train and thought, "Oh man, I really WISH, I could drive so I could be stuck in there."
whoever saw someone getting eaten by a shark and thought "Oh man, I really WISH I could swim so I could be stuck in there."
It's not a continuous feeling.
In rural towns or villages, or places where public transport isn't tat great, even families without much money make it a priority to have a car. No foreign holidays or meals out, but the car is nigh on essential in some places.
I find it quite blinkered that many London people can't see this, and far from getting 'frothy mouthed' about it, it's the needless defensiveness of the non-drivers that tickles me. I'd say that for most of the population, it's those who don't drive that are seen as the strange ones.
As for 'the don't need a car in Londo', that's true to a degree (depending on where you live.) I mean, you'd be silly to drive a car really through central London, but in the outer zones I can see it's handy to have.
Like, a thousand? Not many
You're being a bit silly now.
Despite being a non car owning London dweller I can drive cos I grew up in a small town where you needed a car to get anywhere that wasn't the town centre - work, friends houses etc - cos public transport was is practically non-existent. One bus an hour to the next town and that's if it turned up. No way I could have commuted to next town to work without a car.
We had one bus A WEEK to the next town.
(This story is not the beginning of a Yorkshireman sketch. For a start, it's based in Lincolnshire...)
with the only definition being "anyone who does something differently to me".
Never change DiS!
I'm just heavy trolling now and going around Thissing whatever japes and marckee say. OH MY DAYS.
Pretty sure I haven't seen you post or this a single thing in 2015 that hasn't made me wonder if you've lost the plot, PO.
It's great, marckee comes in here and posts fatuous bullshit to pot-stir and then you come in and back it up in your best serious massive wooden spoon.
Where on earth have I posted to say learning to drive is pointless for everyone? I haven't, I've simply defended the accusation that NOT being able to drive is tantamount to going around murdering babies.
Have a drive around Birmingham for an hour and you'll defo not be bigging up the big smoke as a carmageddon.
as my parents weren't willing to help me learn.
It was roughly £15-16 per hour lesson when I learnt. Plus test fees = around a grand.
BSM require I give them a phone number and an email just to give me a quote. Fuck off.
Had a lesson a week for about a year (no other driving, no going out in anyone else's car, no NOTHING), then look my test. Failed it. Took it 3 months later, passed. Think it was January 2004 I passed actually. First time I failed was the day before my 18th birthday. Oh how that burned.
Anyway, driving lesson fees have flatlined, pretty much. Mine were £17.50/hour back in 1996, and they haven't kept up with inflation.
I also got "mates rates" as the driving instructor taught my mum and all my school pals.
I paid £12ph in '96. Spent the savings on blank C90s.
been learning 14 hours and i can basically drive now
60+ hours! holy shit.
think I took 10.
yeah loads. it is a case of just needing lots of practice, there's only a small amount of teaching that happens, the rest of it is just putting the hours in.
no lessons, none of that shit. Just turned up to the test, bounced some fuck into a baked bean can and walked off with a full licence (I can drive all the vehicles that marckee can too).
The average is 20-24, whether you have them with an instructor or with your parents or not.
this is non-mainland driving that we are talking about.
"There is no set figure for the cost of learning to drive, as it varies according to the number of lessons required and the location. As a rough guide; the Driving Standards Agency research shows that the average person will need at least 47 hours of lessons and 22 hours of private practice before they pass their test."
69 hours driving on average!
What the he'll has happened to this generation?
20 hours total driving in your entire lifetime is NO time at all to get used to being on the road. Though complete fair play to anyone who passed their test with that little practice.
passing the test doesnt mean you can actually drive - legally anyone who's just passed their test will not have even driven on a motorway yet. it's just very basic proficiency
that my above stance was deliberately baiting people - While I personally couldn't imagine not being able to drive (partly because I learned at such a young age, and given where I have lived over the years has been a cornerstone of independence), I really don't think it's a 'necessary' skill at all. I suppose I don't really understand not wanting to learn to drive, but I can understand both the funding issue and the lack of need for people who live in cities (and are happy having huge sections of the country shut off to them... safety wink)
it was you that made me feel so bad, I have so much love for you.
This toadying post makes me want to wretch my guts up.
The main thing thats stopped me is being disabled and not being arsed to got through the process of finding an instructor suitable for me. Should sort it tbh.
was going to post that my friend who has small legs learnt how to drive in london recently and didnt find it too hard to find someone to teach him
Magical bit of trolling that
And I don't think I've spent the total of one 2-hour driving lesson on swimming pool fees in my entire 29 years.
not everyone went to a boarding school with an olympic swimming pools m8
about there being too many beekeepers in London?
I feel like a better person now!
Like to a level where you'd be safe if you fell in the sea, and a couple of years more on top of that if you're going to be swimming half-mile or mile distances.
12 lessons a term, three terms a year, so you're looking at 70 hours minimum. Swimming lessons are about £15/hour these days.
The prices are comparable.
before passing your test?
And I have only killed six people since.
And I was one of the slower ones in my year.
Think the whole thing cost me about £500, once you include the tests and stuff.
see that article below.
Don't know where you're getting your swimming nonsense from tbh.
take to learn these days up thread. I didn't realise that the average had increased by so much in the twenty years since I passed.
But the swimming thing still stands - you're looking at about £1000 to be able to be safe, and that's learning via group classes rather than one-to-one tuition.
Even if that is true, that's fucking stupidly expensive as well so it doesn't lessen how stupidly expensive learning to drive is it just means there's another stupidly expensive thing to learn in addition to it.
who was fortunate enough to have swimming lessons through his school.
We all know that swimming would mess up all his circuit boards
My parking permit got approved on Monday and I picked it up yesterday. HAPPY DAYS!!!
My bird doesn't drive. Grew up in London; hasn't had reason to learn. Fair enough.
However she'll always call me out, through her perception of my lack of competence in driving and parking. Can't have a journey without her moaning about something or other about my driving.
It's literally the most annoying thing in the world.
`You need to be more aggressive there`
`Your parking's terrible` (admittedly it is)
`How have you missed that turning you idiot??`
`You're such a shit driver`
Every time. Every single time. I reiterate she has never ever driven a car.
you do sound like a shit driver tbf
Like Fernando Alonso. Smooth, elegant and pragmatic or quick depending on the circumstance.
Parking is abysmal though, I'll grant her that. Literally have no spatial awareness.
You don't need to drive to know when you're with a crappy driver. Just compare to better ones you've driven with.
dunno about the others
though it's a big part of why im driving. only two of the band could drive, so tour was massively unfair of them and we couldnt afford to pay an actual driver. this is what theo gb is a MUSICAL FAILURE because he wont make THE SACRIFICE of learning how to drive
tell her to get out and walk
"I don't care if we're on the M5!" *shove*
Passed first time, would have been pretty embarrassing if I hadn't tbh tbf.
So, in summary, have a relative (who is a driving instructor) teach you for free and stop fucking whining about the cost you twats.
Imagine not even being able to do that if you wanted to. Someone has said I can use their (old) Porsche as well. Touch my bum, this is life.
H hasn't shotgunned it yet though.
I can split driving with you?
Brooke and H can go in her car? it gets good mileage.
have made me side with Theo.
can we talk about how marckee seems to have gone completely off the rails?
I guess you have to have a plan.
pretending to be incompetent at basic life skills is a weird way to troll really idk
It costs a grand to learn to swim, DON'T YOU KNOW????
we had a swimming pool at primary school though, and I swam in it
raised off the ground
is this a good time to mention that i had ice skating lessons at school?
It's a block of flats and stuff now. :(
All I've said is that for many people learning to drive is expensive, for some it's not necessary, but for others it is, and that being able to drive, whether you have a car or not, is a useful skill to have.
driving is pretty fun and sexy. It's not like I'm saying you're not sexy if you don't drive just that you're going to be a lot sexier if you do. I like watching my bf's arms on the steering wheel.
It is true.
it's fucking annoying when you realise the person in the passenger seat is staring at you, even if erotically
what about that prick keith moon trying to have it both ways
60 hours + how do you explain this?
Been holding back from opening it so I could digest it properly in a one-er.
And, oh my, what schisms and alliances! Big big fan o' team japes/PO/marckee/kik. A bunch o' winners for sure, but rarely so aligned. The non-driving/swimming/cycling freaks are probably beyond help, to be tbh.
also i hate driving
and I'll certainly be rethinking whether Theo is cool or not. he's made a great PR move in aligning himself with the likes of wishpig and ohgood.
Anyone who has any sort of problem with someone else not being able to drive is a prick.
Any driver who gets upset that non-driver asks them a favour involving driving is a prick.
Any non driver who has a problem with a driver refusing to do them a driving favour is a prick.
(Caveats where necessary, etc. Your home is at risk if you do not keep up payments. Your soul belongs to ESA.)
Does no-one in the UK get taught by their parents?
In NZ most people just get taken around by their dad a few times and then just pay the fee for the test itself. The age limit is 15 as well. Fucking terrifying being in a car with your mates when they're essentially 14 years and 369 days old, you all still feel like children
But then he's a very patient man. My mum had a couple of goes at teaching me, but I called it quits after the second go. She's been driving for decades but apparently still doesn't really understand gears, handbrakes, roundabouts, gravity, etc so not the best teacher maybe...
FYI, if you don't drive, fine. If I lived in London I probably wouldn't either with the good public transport.
What I originally intended in the thread was calling out those people who choose not to have a car but then rely on others to do things for them because getting the bus is oh so much of a chore.............all those non drivers pissing and moaning on this thread are probably the exact people I mean.