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What is the upside? Just seems like an unnecessary burden on his family and the prison system.
a bit like how everyone seemed to think tracking down Jihadi John would defeat ISIS
people feel like they're entitled to know the names and faces of murderers and paedos because they say it makes them feel more safe.
don't they have a thing in america where you put in your postcode and it tells you where the paedos near you live.
also it leads to people getting really angry about stuff like this
I'm somewhat dismayed that The Guardian trumpeted the fact that they were leading the push to get this particular name released.
oooh la de da my little princeling
people/media get it confused I think
but in this case the decision was made by a judge.
My point was that it's highly unlikely that the decision maker was confused, seeing as they are a judge and it's their job not to get confused.
i know ann miguire's family are destroyed by it and they've gone though more suffering than anyone deserves. but i just cant comprehend how much it would completely fuck me in the head if my kid (he was a child when he did it) brutally murdered someone just cause he'd decided to hate her. don't have a kid obviously but if i did. just can't get my head around this one. his poor parents :(
i think his family and friends should be spared any more trauma. we don't need to know his identity.
little difference to his family and friends - everyone in the town and at the school knew his identity already, and that's where the trauma is going to come from.
That doesn't mean I agree with releasing his name, but it's just that I don't think that withholding it would spare his family and friends either.
as it means they are no longer able to remain anonymous and unless they adopt new identities, wherever they go, people including the media will be able to out them as his parents. i'd like to think people would leave them in peace but the press love shit like that. i don't know about their circumstances but if they decide to move to a new area, they may now have to adopt new identities. i would definitely want anonymity in a situation like that but i accept that's just me and i don't know at all what the parents are experiencing.
have been 'outed' in the press.
Perhaps I mis-read.
if they moved somewhere and had the same name, leeds accents etc.
as I don't think a judge has the power to prohibit the identification of people who are nothing to do with the proceedings.
Is it about transparency/accountability in the justice system? Would feel weird if there was blanket anonymity for criminals. And also would presumably be an admin hassle beyond all comprehendabilityness.
to understand right from wrong, which as you know is what matters.
the point is that children who commit criminal offences are, by definition, vulnerable.
it's a sliding scale, not automatic.
what's the point in considering people legally as children/minors when they're under 16 if we don't also accept that there comes with childhood and inexperience etc. a certain amount of vulnerability? a lot of criminals are vulnerable.
and all vulnerability vs culpability is judged on merits, in both the scottish and english criminal systems.
i didn't mean the legal construction of vulnerability (more that the 'blanket anonymity for criminals' which royter mentioned wouldn't apply in cases like this because children committing serious criminal offences of this nature are thankfully really rare and anonymity would be the exception).
was talking more about the general principle. I guess because they've said he's never getting released the whole thing about allowing child criminals to rebuild their lives doesn't really apply here. Still bizarre though.
He could be identified when he turned 18 regardless. I don't know the judge's rationale for lifting the anonymity order but it may have been partly because his sentence will take him well into adulthood.
people don't care about rehabilitation and anonymity and the rights of those convicted, they care about KNOWING THE TRUTH and DESERVING TO KNOW THE NAMES OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE ENDED THE LIVES OF OTHERS and WOULD LIKE TO KNOW IF THEY WERE LIVING NEXT DOOR TO A CRIMINAL
people care very deeply about rehakitatoin and ntring to rstore a sense of justice for not just victims but also those who lose their liberty because of their actions. I think his statements as to why he committed this crime has struck a chord with people becauase it is SO awful, it is SO pre-meditated, dare I say it, it is so fucking hatstand mental- yet it didn't go as far as criminal insanity' (which is actually monumentally hard to prove anyway). I can kind of understand the 'throw away the key' feelings many of people are expressing here, and that is is a huge admission to come from somebody who is pretty anti-punitive policy/ pro-rehab.
are my two main concerns when it comes to justice.
people who are so distant from society they may as well be on Jupiter
to 'out' him, but there is no automatic right to anonymity- the hwole uidea of teh system is that you stand trial in front of your peers for your actions. Also it would be a total ballache to keep this kind of info quiet.
I ma completely anti capital punishment, or indeed lenghty jail terms where there is no immediate risk of physical harm to others, but I cannot see how this guy can be rehabilitated. A bit like the bulger killers, it would just be better if he was vapourised.
than at 10. Per the other thread on this, as uncomfortable as it feels, I think he should get a second chance if he can be rehabilitated. But I am pretty confident the prison system will fail him. The whole thing is heartbreaking (obviously for the victim and those affected by it but also that anyone would ever hold the beliefs that the killer held)
at rehanbilitaion. I just wonder where they will even begin to start with him, as he has shown not a speck or remorse- he w=knows it was wrong but he doesn't care.
hopefully he will grow up in the coming years and be able to muster some compassion, because without that he might as well just be locked up forever.
he does know that other people think that it is wrong.
(mind you these are just words and they are all subjective)
By all accounts he was a diligent, intelligent kid who worked hard, had a supportive family and friends and until a few weeks beforehand gave no inkling that he would even contemplate something like this, let alone actually carry it out. It's not like this is was the end result of a long pattern of behaviour.
It doesn't sound like, at some point in his life, he's beyond redemption.
something has gone badly wrong for this boy (further back than a few weeks before the crime though- I thought he'd been planning it for some itme?) probably not relevant anyway.)I'd lovwe to think he can be helped and I really hope this is the case.
he doesnt stand a chance though unless he can experience some empathy, whihc he seems ot be completely lacking in a highgy sociopathic disordered way. Something has clearly gone wrong in his head, but he is still criminally responsible- doesn't seem quite fair, does it?
who evaluated him said he had psychopathic tendencies.
that psychopathy doesn't count as a mental illness because it doesn't respond to treatment, it's just how the person 'is'. Which seemed like a weird definition.
it's a behaviour/personality disorder.
since being released.
though. And quite disgustingly flippant of you to pretend that you don't know that.
to suggest they should be 'vapourised'.
disgusting, yes, and I was quite honest about my horror at my reaction. quite the opposite of flippant actually, but you're a bit of a blinkered dodo so I won't expect you to understand that.
is any better than a murderer wanting to destroy a human being.
Also, I don't really see how, if a murderer has spent time in prison, and has been released from prison without committing murder again, they're not 'rehabilitated'. Your argument is basically that some crimes as so 'horrific!!' in a tabloid-y way, that the people who committed those crimes should never be released. Which is a shit argument. How do you have any idea whether this kid or the Bulger killers can be rehabilitated? You don't. You're just reacting to the way they're represented in the media.
You claim to be anti-capital punishment, anti-long prison sentences, but you're just spewing the same right wing, reactionary crap as everyone else in the country.
I don't think you've understood the points I've been making in this thread, at all.
(which in this case can mean so many different things), i don't really see why it would be better if he was just vapourised? he's still a person and still very young.
you're right of course, tere's just something about this crime that has quite a different and visceral reacton in me. I should not have read the sentencing remarks.
that Ed Kemper murdered both his grandparents at the age of 16.
He was sent to mental hospital to serve out his sentence and was released when deemed 'rehabilitated'. He then went on to murder 8 innocent women.
Now I appreciate that he is young and I disagree in 'outing' people as I do believe most of the time it's for 'entertianment' as opposed to justice. BUT lets not forget who the victim here really is, this 15yr old - who has at this age developed the skills to distinguish right from wrong - purposefully went to school and stabbed to death an innocent woman. A wife/mother and teacher who was just doing her job. As for rehabilitation and the diagnosis for Psycopathy, psycopathy is a personality disorder and not a mental disorder - which is why you cannot treat for psychopathy. What it means is you have dimished empathy and remorse. This young man clearly has no remorse for his crime, until he sees what he has done as awful and feels remorseful for taking that poor woman's life, he will not be rehabilitated. Lastly, whereas I am all for rehabilitation, I do not for one second feel sympathy for this individual because yes I agree that people deserve second chances, but his victim doesn't get one does she? In fact her life was ended in a very painful and horrific way, she was not only in severe pain, but the fear she must have felt knowing she was dying must have been truly awful. So before we all start saying 'Poor kid' lets remember poor innocent victim.
I'm not sure that example is particularly relevant here.
as a stark reminder of what goes wrong when people are prematurely deemed to not pose a risk to the public.
It's very unlikely that a similar situation could occur here, and to try and suggest that he could go on to murder another 8 people if he was ever released is pretty tenuous, if not facetious.
don't think msmonipenni was going quite that far with the example tho tbf.
"My point being that just because someone is a teenager and has the ability to be rehabilitated doesn't mean that they will"
"It doesn't sound like, at some point in his life, he's beyond redemption."
You don't just wake up one day and decide to butcher someone. This was a planned event. The fact that he 'acted' normal doesn't mean he wasn't displaying Psychopathic behaviour. Did he harm animals? Did he like setting fires? How was he when he got angry? Cold? Calculated? What were his fantasies?
Has he ever seen a grown man naked? Does he like movies about gladiators? Has he ever been in a Turkish Prison?
I said that one shouldn't assume that he could never be.
but m...aarcke e i..s righ ... t
*suffers brain aneurysm*
we also shouldn't assume that he will be. Currently he has no remorse and I am not going to put a potential positive spin on a person who planned and executed an horrific murder of an innocent woman.
https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/reoffending-statistics rather than the Telegraph.
NB Someone else wade through the stats please
having convinced his psychiatrist he was rehabilitated.
As I say, I think that it's very unlikely that a similar situation could occur here.
or because we have less persuasive psychopaths?
one of my mum's patients stabbed someone to death on a bus last year :/
He was a teenage boy who murdered, just like in this case. Whether it was in the 60s or not the action of taking a life is still the same. He was 'rehabilitated' and let out. My point being that just because someone is a teenager and has the ability to be rehabilitated doesn't mean that they will. We don't know how far back his Psychopathy stems, whether he used to harm animals, light fires etc... the fact that he currently shows no remorse and is proud of what he has done is alarming and I wouldn't want someone like that roaming the streets after a few years. That's my point.
He won't be released until he's been deemed to have been rehabilitated. comparing the judicial, probation and psychiatric systems of 1960s California with 2030s UK is a bit of a stretch.
it's completely the same!
And I am failing to see what point you're making in return?
we need to learn from the FUTURE!
I was providing an example of where a teenager committed a crime of murder, was deemed rehabilitated and was let out and then went on to murder again. None of which was said flippantly.
The Sun named him months ago, and it was easily findable on twitter.
I don't think it's in the public interest to name killers outright, but then I don't think it's in the public interest to try and maintain anonymity when it's already out there.
But also yeah, his poor parents. What a completely fucked up and dreadful thing for everyone concerned.
- the fact that he killed her in front of a class full of other kids meant that it was a fairly 'public' crime already and anybody who wanted the information would not have had to look very hard meant it was fairly pointless insisting on anonymity. Still horrible for his family though. Also not great because the other inmates where he is being held now also know exactly who he is and they will want to kill him
is the world i dream of
chris grayling doesn't make the calls (thankfully).
i think i saw something in the thread that made me think about it and only posted where my brain ended up
keeping dossiers on potential undesirables
Totally depressing, in every way. he planned it for YEARS. Several of his schoolmates knew he was planning it, he showed the big knife to a few of them, but they were perhaps too scared to say anything or didn't believe him. he told the police he was homicidal and then suicidal and ten decided that he had come to the conclusion it was better to be homicidal and kill HEER and spend the rest of his life in prison. he doesn't come across as sad, or particualry worried or afraid. very clinmical and cold- psychopathis as they say, and worryingly, with the exception of the few friends he confided in 9I say confided as it didn't even come across as a teenage boast) giving NO inclination to the outside world of what was bubbling away under the surface.
The brain is a compex organ- it doesn't take much for it to malfunction quite severely, and it is also succesptible to minte hormonal changes- I just wonder if puberty has made this kid's brain bend in on itself (a technical term of art for the medical profession, not). What I mean is- I wonder that as he grows into adulthood there might be more hope of being able to help him with his thought and behaviour patterns, I do hope so because otherwise, there surely is no hope of him getting out of jail even in 20 years. I can't stop thinking about his poor parents :(