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Anyone following this?
we had a thread about it awhile back
As much as I'd like to see both sides of the argument, it's a shame that what could have been a fairly thoughtful discussion involving ethics in gaming journalist has been hijacked by some awful people.
insofar as it was ever about "ethics" it was about some totally bogus claims that a couple of female indie devs were sleeping with journalists for positive coverage.
It has not been hijacked - it was awful bullshit from the very beginning.
OMG she is a female she must be using her vagina to get what she wants.
like the whole thing sprang from a guy having a 10,000 word cry on his livejournal over getting dumped =')
and there was essentially only one journalist involved, and those claims were addressed both by the site he worked for and the journalist himself.
That said there is/was still the issue journalistic integrity as far as looking at relationships between games publishing houses and certain reviewers (most notably AAA publishers), as essentially there's a significant amount of games journalism that's been co-opted purely for promotional purposes and doesn't allow for an objective opinion.
Again I think the problem is more nuanced than it's often given credit for, some people have misinterpreted many of the articles posted near the the beginning of this whole debacle to mean that certain games are under threat, that was not and will most likely never be the case.
Meanwhile other people are using what could have been a flashpoint for a debate about ethics as a cover for outright misogyny, it's a mess.
"Jump ahead to present day and now gamergate happens. I look at who is attacking us, and by and large what I see are well-off, middle to upper middle class charlatans funded by millionaires trying to demonize me again. And, like before, they have all the advantages; the media narrative, the resources, the mainstream support. I see class warfare being waged under the pretense of fighting against misogyny. To me, there is a depraved kind of "white man's burden" scenario at play here. An apparatus of "enlightened" academics and so-called intellectuals being used to serve a new, more "politically correct" form of imperialism. Pseudo-intellectual terminologies like "patriarchy", "triggering", "rape culture" are just cheap buzz words; pernicious articles of privilege born of first-world comfort and narcissism."
I'm not quite sure what you're intending us to make of this?
"I'm half hispanic. My mom died when I was finishing the fifth grade. I was popular in elementary school, but I got really quiet in middle school and high school. I really started getting bullied in high school. Boogers put in my hair, water poured on my books. I made a few friends, but I always knew I could come home and play some Tomb Raider, Spyro, Crash or Legend of Dragoon.
Pretty soon any friends I had were because of video games. I still remember have a sleepover at my buddy's house and waiting for his mom to go to sleep so we could sneak downstairs to play GTA. Or going to my rich friend's house because his dad had every console. We used to spend hours just shooting zombies in Resident Evil or organizing our armor collection in Morrowind.
When I got bullied I turned to games, when I turned to games I found my way into a community. Now, I'm an adult. This shit makes me angry in a way that can't be good for my health, but I'm glad to see a strong community of gamers coming together to fight this.
I genuinely don't think we'll be on the losing side of this. We have too much truth and reason on our side. These assholes don't even care about games, I have no fucking clue why they are pushing their narrative so hard. But I'm glad to be on the opposite side."
certainly nothing about mainstream games studios etc?
you've massively lost me here.
if anything GG seems to have undergone a sort of reverse-hijacking; a lot of upset kids like the above have piled in and are signing up to this cause and being handily manipulated by the core of trolls organising fake campaigns like #notyourshield etc.
I think a lot of the people who feel angered by gamersgate don't understand 1) their way of life isn't under threat, I actually think a lot of this could be down to misinterpretation of the "death of gamers" articles.
2) In the areas where there is scope for change their actions are at best having little effect or in a few cases actually damaging their cause.
what is happening, people from here can read that and realize it's preposterous but some people genuinely believe their games are under threat.
If you'd never watched a femfreq video, gamersgate would have you believing they were a call for the dissolution of popular franchises. That was not the case when the videos were made and it's not the case now.
Or music journalism, for that matter? Its entire existence is a role of promotion. Of course it's closely tied to the games industry, it's part of the industry. Even 'objective opinion' such as a critical review of a game only exists as a function of that promotional cycle. It shouldn't even be called journalism, its just writing about games, which is not to say it can't be entertaining or informative or valuable, but this whole moan about 'ethics' is just completely misguided.
I can't tell whether you've not read much games writing, or whether you have a ludicrously over-precious opinion of journalism, but there are more similarities between the two than differences, especially when it comes to the critical pieces and investigations that the GamerGame types think are threatening their pastime.
but I kind of have the feeling that you don't know what you're talking about here?
Most mainstream games writing is promotional fluff, except for the investigations and critical pieces produced by the people getting hounded by the GamerGate supporters.
What they are producing is journalism or criticism in the same way that we'd say that a newspaper journalist is a journalist or a critic is a critic.
h-y-g's post seemed to imply that a) there is no 'proper' journalism happening in games writing, which isn't the case, and b) that other forms of journalism aren't tied into the promotional cycle in the same way.
games writing and journalism. i dunno, i dont read any regularly, but i imagine it's identical to the music press, the proportion of which is actual journalism as opposed to opinion pieces or press release rehashes must be less than 1%
I have a incredibly low opinion of all journalism right now.
No, they just go after the easy, low-hanging fruit that - coincidentally! - means that they can target women and female indie developers.
So unutterably depressing and picked over so many times I can't be bothered to talk about it anymore. Probably how feminists feel all the time tbh
Oh yeah, by the way, could you apologise for calling me a psycho bitch earlier? Everyone else did, but you didn't seem to be around.
If you're not sorry, then you're a sexist prick. Oh, hang on, wait, I'm not "immersed" enough in "internet culture" to know what is acceptable and what isn't.
Who is the woman in your profile picture? It's not you, or anyone famous that I know of. Why do you have a picture of this woman?
It's from an absolutely ancient thread of pictures submitted for an Irish version of the X Factor, I think? Public domain, certainly. Keep meaning to change it because it's been warped all to hell but last I tried DiS wouldn't let me.
I'm the one who made Cat_race apologise on here for how he treated me. Understand now?
No recollection whatsoever of calling you a "psycho bitch" but if I did that obviously wasn't on. Although I can remember calling cat_race lots of stuff, christ was he annoying.
Well, that's what I like to hear. Yes, cat_race could have handled the apology much, much better in so many ways, but the ways people reacted on here gave me such a bad impression, which was made far worse by the fact that I absolutely cannot avoid people from here in "real life", no matter how hard I tried.
parsefone finds it particularly difficult to apologise for his sexism
Does he have form on this, then?
Am I right in thinking its just fucktards being fucktards- cause there's a way more important aspects of the media and impartiality that could be questioned than fucking games reviews.
and the best response would be to ignore them, if they weren't succesfully driving women from their homes with death and rape threats.
I've not been following it 'cause it seems a depress-a-thon, and I'm only a casual gamer at best, but I did use the gamergate hashtag a few weeks ago, and the responses I got were from THE most creepy tweeters ever.
the latest is that Anita Sarkeesian, who produces videos criticising games from a feminist viewpoint, had to cancel a talk at a university b/c someone threatened to shoot it up, and Utah's concealed-carry laws stopped them from frisking people for guns. Eurgh
"Gamers" are being encouraged to think there are these 'Social Justice Warriors' who are threatening to stop the games they love from existing and, specifically, that the blame for this lies with a few key visible women in the world of gaming.
In truth these women are only guilty of (get this) pointing there are some sexist aspects to existing games, and creating games that are highly original by virtue of eschewing these sexist tropes.
The GamerGate hashtag has been used as a means of getting a lot of noise out of an easy demographic here: the classic male teenage gamer who has already cut themselves off from society, who sees women as synonymous with sex and as an enemy otherwise; fledgeling Mens' Rights Activists, to put it simplistically. In varying degrees these guys have run with the notion that the games industry is being pressured into changing the games they love via all kinds of means, so they effectively run cover for the truly fucked up, vile misogynist wankers who are making death threats and the like. You essentially have this weird 'cover' from guys who have convinced themselves GamerGate is just about stopping corruption in gaming but there is no corruption.
but GG is not concerned with this at all; rather with slut-shaming a few women under the guise of "ethics".
I always think as well, that if you were looking for a name for someone you want to dismiss and vilify, "Social Justice Warrior" is not the best choice of words. It makes you sound like the hero, going round chopping up injustice with a sword. Like something from a video game in fact.
a browser plugin that replaces all instances of "SJW" with "skeleton".
So pages about how much these people hate skeletons, how skeletons ruin everything, etc. great stuff.
The woman who runs an art history blog I read about portrayals of POC in European Art history got death and rape threats from these guys for suggesting that there was good historical evidence that you could put some African or Middle Eastern characters in a game set in medieval Bohemia which only had white male characters in initial versions.
Delingpole waded in: http://www.spectator.co.uk/columnists/james-delingpole/9322382/why-i-love-grand-theft-auto-v-and-the-feminazis-hate-it/
this, hilariously, about three months after he wrote an article slamming the same game saying ti was likely to cause violence etc.
this has of course been pointed out to the GG fuckheads, but they're so desperate for support from anyone with even a shadow of credibility (lol) that they've managed to completely disregard it.
imagine being an adult and being happy to describe yourself as "a gamer".
in that I don't own any games consoles etc nor have I played a game in 10 years maybe but I suppose it's all our responsibilities in a way so I shouldn't disassociate myself with it completely.
That is of course apart from the social stigma. I don't though, or at least not in public.
Anymore than someone saying they enjoy films or are a football fan is an automatic cause for derision. Gamergate has however pushed that day back by a good 15 years.
gg, gg. gg.
than how much of their identity is given over to being "gamers"; like in a certain sense I'm a gamer, a reader and a film fan, but I don't use any of these to define myself as much as this lot user "gamer".
Someone smarter than me can probably get into this better tbqh
Wolves' quote up there is fairly representative: A lot of people grew up knowing it only as something young male nerds did, and identified themselves with it as a result. I'm sure film was fairly similar, back in the day - to the mainstream it was something odd and gimmicky that could only be used to portray fairly specific things and would palpably never usurp radio.
My snark has no place in this thread.
I don't know what the phrsae for going too far is after you you've already gone too far but jfc. Can I get a 'Good work, virgins'?
Really unpleasant. Utah's gun laws sound insane.
I would just say I hate people using the term 'virgin' as an insult, it's the sort of thing those idiots would do.
Yeah, whether or not someone has had sex before has no bearing on their worth as a person.
and used in a pretty lighthearted way, usually in re. DiSers, fwiw.
(one I actually started a thread about it's use of back in the day) so no points to be gained here I'm afraid.
even if it's meant light-heartedly, it still kinda promotes this idea of masculinity being all about sexual conquests and getting laid and stuff. which in turn creates a sense of indignation (and even entitlement) about getting shagged. which is all very obvious but apparently still needs saying.
There is a noticeable different in men post loss of virginity. Coming of age, being becoming a man etc.
In the terms of gaming, it is generally joked about online gamers are 14 year old American kids in their parent's basements getting so riled about Call of Duty they are trying to stick a television remote in their arse.
It's more about mental maturity than defining men on their sexual conquests.
Couldn't help myself.
but let's leave it at that as I'm not going to change my mind.
"I've started learning more about Tumblr culture and the various controversies leading up to GamerGate, and I'm honestly not surprised that this whole thing blew up like it did. I didn't realize how long this stuff has been going on for. G̶l̶a̶d̶ ̶I̶'̶m̶ ̶n̶o̶t̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶o̶n̶l̶y̶ ̶o̶n̶e̶ ̶w̶h̶o̶ ̶t̶h̶i̶n̶k̶s̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶m̶o̶d̶e̶r̶n̶ ̶f̶e̶m̶i̶n̶i̶s̶m̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶t̶u̶r̶n̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶i̶n̶t̶o̶ ̶a̶ ̶d̶a̶n̶g̶e̶r̶o̶u̶s̶ c̶u̶l̶t̶.̶
If anything good is coming out of this mess it's that I can see clearly who the reasonable voices are. Folk like TotalBiscuit and Boogie are actually trying to have a discussion instead of slinging shit at people, and are sadly being punished for it. ):"
just glad one of his friends seems to be a feminist who's really into her games and is calling him and his pals out on it. don't have the energy to get involved in the thread (it's currently on 70 replies) but am just liking everything she says out of support.
which i honestly consider, in its attempt to be even handed, somewhat apologist for these fucking idiots. as stated above, there aren't two sides to the story, just complete fucking babies. there is no issue of journalistic ethics - reviews and thinkpieces aren't real journalism. if you find a publication promotes shite, stop reading that publication/writer. really simple. imagine being such baaaaaaaaaabies.
anyway, look at the comments on that piece. even trying (imo) too hard to be sympathetic he still gets disgusting abuse from idiots
those comment are bewildering
(the dial essential cranks the power, etc etc)
GamerGate is TOTALLY ABOUT ETHICS. I assume we just happened to miss the hundreds of thousands of angry tweets when
... Youtubers were accepting payola
(oh, and that's still going on)
... Developers try to bribe journos for high scores
... Jeff Gerstmann was fired for giving a bad review
(including maybe the deadspin one?) have done a pretty good job too of arguing why the moderate position is only fanning the flames at this point.
This has been going on for more than long enough and the people in question had plenty of opportunities to get their views across in 'balanced' or indeed their own terms. I'd say the scales are tipping towards those that (justifiably) outright blast them now but christ it's taken a long time.
I really really dislike Andrew Kilroy. I'm not comfortable hating someone this much based on a tiny photo and a few stupid comments.
the suffix "gate" basically means a controversy coming out of an incident. there is no fucking incident, and then all these gimps are calling THEMSELVES gamergate. it's semantically nauseating
I assumed "gamergate" was the whole ugly affair. You can't set yourself up as a "-gate". Dickheads.
originally solely inspired by Zoe Quinn's story which I guess did make sense (in the same sense that monicagate made sense) , although since the allegations were subsequently found to be untrue, kind of irrelevant.
Is that the next step up from getting a note from your mum?