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With the best of intentions, but knowing full well it'll snow again tomorrow, or that it'll probably melt anyway.
And Ariel Pink is a fucking weirdo.

No, that is not an actual problem which men face. Men continuing to dispute the role of gender as a contributory factor in motivating criticism unless it is explicitly indicated as such is a problem though.

Madonna is a tired brand, she doesn't have much credibility musically anymore- I guess there is a point about whether a male performer who has a similar career path to her would get the same treatment. Like, I don't know, Neil Diamond was pretty popular, fell out of favour and then became relatively trendy again. I don't think he has ever faced a similar kind of wrath.

However...I'm fairly sure, although I might be wrong, that Diamond was the author of his songs. I know some people get really annoyed at this view, but personally I find an artists credibility diminished quite a lot if they were not heavily involved with the writing/creation of the songs. This goes from Elvis to Beyonce.

Perhaps that could explain the tone of the comments- Madonna has always been the face of the hits, not the creator. And Madonna has basically relied on her physicality, more than other performers. But then again you argue that's a result of a sexist society where you can only get ahead through sheer sex appeal.

but it seems that she was at least at the forefront of pop music a while ago and then she recently tried to jump on board the "club/electronic" scene to appear young/relevant. she also seems that she is going for stunts, didn't she imply some political groups where nazi's ( found it: http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/madonna-defends-use-of-nazi-imagery-20120726).

I don't think that view makes me a misogynist/sexist. Ariel Pink is a douchebag who I did unfortunately see live one and this is exactly what I expect of him though.

This blows up a couple of weeks before ariel pinks new lp comes out.

Grimes' stock contines to wain as her lp keeps being delayed.

Just an observation

wasn't female until this thread.

It's just important to think before you speak and consider whether you'd say the same thing about a male artist and whether you're judging them on the same criteria.

Madonna is a difficult one because she's courted controversy throughout her career in a way and therefore has polarised opinions but there's no doubt that some of the criticism directed to her is misogynistic and not respresentative of a purely artistic view.

Was just trying to think of a male artist who comes in for a lot of hate that has nothing to do with gender or sexuality and Paul McCartney comes to mind.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjX6hjYSodo

Round and Round is a great song but... terrible seeming dude.

Ariel Pink is pretty crap. And an insignificance in comparison. Doesn't even deserve to given the oxygen of publicity by being mentioned in the same paragraph.

but I think Madonna should be excused from all discussions of everything. She's like Bono or Jeffrey Archer - someone who's gone beyond conventional notions of gender, class and race and is just a colossal bumhat.

criticising her physically is never okay, obviously. criticising her music isn't necessarily a bad thing, as long as you apply the same standards to anyone of any gender.

like, don't hold her to higher standards (like in DiS-type rockcrit misogny), but don't patronise her, either. as in, to make her exempt from criticism.

and don't criticise her for gender-specific reasons.

...

it's okay to think her music is shallow, dilettante trend-hopper rubbish. that isn't, like, a specifically female musical trait.

also, the main problem here was that Ariel Pink was rubbishing her from the position of a man drafted in to write songs for a woman. men write for women all the time, so not inherently bad (women also write for men), but was talking about it like "oh, they needed a man to rescue this woman from her diminishing returns", said it in a really patronising way.

think I was thinking my way through this one. probably best to wait and see what DD and gb say.

Interesting post - quite long but did read

Been having similar considerations myself. The gf has been reading everyday feminism and it's got me thinking about those same kinds of issues. Have both definitely been guilty of using inherently gendered language without giving it much thought.

http://thequietus.com/articles/10133-ariel-pink-beta-male-misogyny

as I can't really think of many artists with a career that length who are still working on material that's aiming to capture trends at the forefront of popular music.

I think it's definitely ageist to suggest any artist shouldn't be doing that but I'd struggle to say, in this case at least, that it was a criticism specifically reserved for women. Also Ariel Pink definitely isn't exactly someone I'd associate with being an expert on this particular topic.

and a proven idiot with all the misogynistic comments he's made recently. He makes out that he just "says things" because he knows it'll rile people up. Which doesn't make him clever or funny, it just makes him an asshole.

Good post.

I put an article on a similar topic in the share feminist articles thread yesterday. (Can someone make it sticky like I suggested? It makes it easy to find and refer to, and also winds up all the right people)

"For example, in relation to my first point, women are constantly criticised as being shallow and concerned with looks and aesthetics over substance. Secondly, Tumblr is a mainly female space, therefore criticising a woman for being 'tumblr-y' could be seen as attacking women who want to associate themselves with one of the few places that isn't dominated by men."

I really like Grimes, precisely because of the way she puts together bits of familiar things in a new way. I’m not arguing that you’ve got to like her though, because obviously it’s totally a matter of personal taste whether you like certain music or not. I saw the video one of her singles when it came out and really liked it and decided to get her album, but it was interesting how my initial reaction was “please, please let this artist actually be a solo artist who does the music too, rather than just a vocalist who is the public face of a duo with a faceless male producer”. Not to disparage the talent and work of people who are only vocalists, but it’s just such a tired old thing. It’s interesting as well though that the public perception of people like Grimes & Björk always focuses on them as a singer and their visuals, even though they are also the producers and composers of their own work.

“"It feel like still today, after all these years, people cannot imagine that woman can write, arrange or produce electronic music.” Björk in this grauniad article

http://www.theguardian.com/music/musicblog/2008/aug/27/whybjorkisrighttostickup

I was watching one of those archive TOTPs shows the other day. I think it was from 1979. In the whole show the only women shown were the vocalist on a disco track (surrounded by men playing instruments, and she had to do double duty as the only non-white person in the show too) and Pan’s People wearing flouncy nighties and doing a really creepy dance with giant teddybears. Not one single woman on an instrument. Things have improved since then, yes, but not dramatically, and how many gigs has everyone here gone to which are a totally/near totally male lineup and no-one bats an eyelid?

Also, in terms of traditionally feminine activities being seen as demeaning or frivolous, I was talking about that here the other day. If a woman takes up a traditionally masculine activity such as say car mechanics or football, it could go one of two ways. People might either frame her as being unattractively butch, or really cool. It won’t be framed as being demeaning or humiliating though. A man who is really into hair styling or knitting though will often be framed as somehow demeaning himself. It ties in as well to how appallingly trans women are treated. I’ve had people in the past question whether I’m really a feminist because I like to bake and sew. There is absolutely nothing stupid about baking or sewing. In fact they’re useful skills. Come the nuclear apocalypse, I’ll be in demand.

Have a look at these knitting instructions. Can you understand and follow them to make a well-crafted item of clothing? No, you can’t. http://www.wool.ie/heatherwools.asp

In terms of Tumblr & Pinterest, they’re often dismissed as being full of frivolous female crap, which is interesting. There’s nothing in the actual design or setup of each site that makes it that way. Pinterest is an excellent tool for visual research. I used to save pictures in folders on my computer, and then info like the original source etc would get lost. Now I pin them in a pinterest folder (http://www.pinterest.com/emmafalconer/), and it preserves the source, I can add notes, and access them from anywhere, and also geotag pictures onto a map if appropriate. The recommendation system on Pinterest is also great, it shows you other collections that have used the same picture, which is really helpful for visual research. If you go on their front page without being logged in, yes it is full of wedding photos and self-help book quotes superimposed on pictures of sunsets because those are popular, but as soon as you’ve logged in, it only shows you pictures related to whatever else you’ve been pinning. Yet pinterest has pretty much been identified in people’s minds as being full of “vapid women’s crap”.

Same with Tumblr, except it’s “stupid teenage girl crap”. I mean, tumblr itself is a totally neutral microblogging site. They provide the platform, you fill it with your own content. It is popular with young women and LGBQT people though. I get so much more insight into other people’s lives and perceptions of the world from my tumblr feed than probably anywhere else though. I get links to interesting and thought provoking articles, wonderful artwork by artists I’ve never heard of, fashion photos of people who would never be allowed onto the pages of a fashion magazine, and descriptions of people’s lives whose voices are never heard in the mainstream media. I’m certainly not getting that from the social board section of Drowned in Sound.

There’s also the issue of women’s appearance. We are constantly told that our appearance and attractiveness to men are the number one thing. Any other achievement is secondary, no matter how talented and successful you are, you can be reduced any minute to “would you do her?”. Your appearance and desirability is the most important thing, but it will never ever be good enough. The second you show that you put any effort or time into your appearance though, you’re shallow and brainless and vain. You’d better look perfect, but just by accident and by waking up beautiful. I’ve got a whole massive rant about this topic, but I’ll save it for another time, and when I’ve got a few useful articles to hand to link to as well.

who became a feminist overnight is really really cringey

why people spend so much time talking about music/artists they don't like. you don't like them, it's not for you. but some people do like them and it means a lot to them. great. (obviously it's sometimes funny to laugh at how bad some music is and to make fun of people who like it, if they're losers. but grimes fans aren't losers.)

i do kinda think people making really facile criticisms of stuff for being 'too tumblr' or w/e is definitely coded as feminine and as such i would be a bit alert to someone saying that. i don't think there's a way of bracketing gender or of removing any gendered subtext to anything you're saying. it's obviously far too complex and unstable a thing to ever remove gender as a consideration.

far more important to remain reflexive and open to the potential for your criticism to take insidious sexist norms for granted. and always remain open to radical/feminist/any kind of counter-hegemonic ideas. like tumblr, for example, is obviously a really important space for a lot of people who are in various ways 'outsiders'. grimes is obviously a very significant artist, particularly as an one who deals explicitly with feminist issues. if you can at least appreciate that (rather than dismissing it) without fixating on how you don't like [female musician], then cool.

No,no it isn't.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B37AGYsCIAAtqT4.png:small

...

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychobabble