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I don't know if it makes a difference but wasn't most of the mocking around the truly shocking guitar playing. I think if there was similar footage of a successful male performer playing as badly it would also get pretty mocked. That is not to say there isn't an undercurrent of putting down womens musical abilities which probably came out a bit
The vocals were no worse than plenty of bands of that ilk. The guitar is comically bad.
like the most circulated 'LOL u cant play' video ever is Fred Dursts guitar solo
in how people talk about courtney love (and that this goes back like 20 years). and a lot of misogyny involved in how all women musicians are generally discussed and presented, and in how their work is appreciated (or not appreciated). so there's a very good reason why people should be careful not to further that. as the article says, this sort of lol look this singer cant actually sing!!!! expose seems to happen more to women. either way, releasing a video TO GO VIRAL like this is just about the least punk thing imaginable.
why was the video released? (cause of a disgruntled sound engineer).
but why have people taken such delight in a video showing courtney love up?
I think in this specific example most of the reaction was down to how awful the guitar playing was, not even passable, not even hitting notes let alone the right notes, which for someone as successful as her is of interest. I enjoyed it in exactly the same way I enjoyed that video of fred dusts guitar solo. That it went viral, all the bad will courtney love has, and the harsher judgement women musician gets probably does say something, but I don't feel bad about thinking that video is funny
I think the noticeable thing is just how much people want courtney love to look bad. in the scheme of things, i can think of dozens of male musicians who are far more unpleasant than her but dont get nearly as much shit for it.
LOOK WHAT THE FEMINISTS ARE TRYING TO SAY IS SEXIST NOW IS NOTHING SACRED WAHHH
where she openly admitted that she could no longer play guitar at all due to, as she called it, an ill-advised stint on crack. She just has it with her now as a prop, pretty much. And she's never claimed to be a good singer, so it seems stupid to try and embarrass her (as that's pretty much the only thing the guy who released that video could be trying to achieve) with stuff that's pretty widely known and that she herself has acknowledged.
also think a lot of the criticism she got is not from the 'women can't play guitar angle' (probably from a few idiots) but more from a 'look at what the drugs have done' angle, she could play once now she can't, could easily imagine some one doing a similar thing to pete docherty (though I suppose he has always sounded that bad) and it being received in a similar way
she has a very public reputation for being a pretty horrid person, irrelevant of gender.
but is there also another element here?
Like with the hatred for Yoko Ono, because of the love for John Lennon, in some bizarre way that I cant explain
than isolated Cave vocals, a Cave a capella album would be mint.
was how much I enjoyed his speaking voice when he was narrating parts of it. He should be hired to narrate nature documentaries and stuff.
this rather macabre story: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uj4RBmU-PIo
i actually really like this video, sounds like royal trux.
haven't read the article, but i'm sure it mentions the similar videos recently of mariah carey, whitney houston, aretha franklin etc - it's almost like people think women shouldn't be allowed to be talented and successful.
lambasting South Park for having Randy Marsh pretend hes Lorde saying they have no right to attack an 'innocent 17 year old gir'... and then South Park retaliated by making a whole episode about Randy Marsh actually Lorde a week later. Turns out the writer never watched the episode.
Dissing Courtney Love is so 2004, really boring by now.
I'm not sure I would have come across the video as I haven't seen anything online about it apart from the Guardian article talking about blogs criticising it.
like Johnny Borrell or Liam Gallagher? Yes
Was there a clear, non-sexist motivation for why the guy put it up? Yes
Has Courtney Love been the victim of endless sexist incidents in her career? Yes. This just isn't one of them
to "prove" they can't actually sing.
the point is that those (male) singers' singing styles are taken as given, whereas someone has spent time making a pernicious video about a female vocalist in order to take them down a peg EVEN THOUGH their singing style is pretty much supposed to be like that.
or if it did, no-one would find it funny?
It's a dick move to do this to anyone, but I'm struggling to see how this is specifically sexist
it's irrelevant though as he's a laughing stock anyway.
even within rock music, women are still expected to be "good" at singing, whereas male singers are given more leeway in terms of having voices with "character".
this courtney love video in isolation is just weird, since it seems to be making fun of someone for either not being good at singing when that's not her MO, and/or making fun of someone with addiction issues. but as part of a trend of mocking female vocalists in particular, seems pretty consistent with sexist attitudes towards women in the public eye.
look at the most popular or most critically-acclaimed alternative female-fronted bands, plenty of them don't sing in tune or with any real skill, and plenty of these bands are celebrated despite that.
Not a note between them.
none of them are that famous unless you're a nuts reader with a record collection.
none of these three examples of women are comparable to say, bob dylan in terms of being famous for having a terrible voice YET STILL SELLING BILLIONS OF RECORDS (lol at the idea of bikini kill selling loads of records).
and nothing about selling billions of records. u feelin' alright, bro?
listen to top 40 radio, most the male singers have a technically good voice
there aren't any female artists who are afforded the same status as the likes of bob dylan, mick jagger, bruce springsteen, neil young, oasis etc - you know, rock musicians that are accepted by the mainstream that are allowed to not be able to sing "well".
basically, i'm saying that male imperfect voices are appreciated in a way that women's aren't, which is exemplified by the existence of this fucking courtney love video.
They're not significantly different than the recorded vocals on everything other than Celebrity Skin to merit much comment - I've seen Hole live three or four times and she doesn't sound much more polished even with the band audible.
Seems like the guitar playing is the bit that people find funny, which has nothing to do with whether Bob Dylan sounds like a dying toad.
Why are you bringing the Boss into this?
None of the other ones you've mentioned could do that.
right but the reason for that is a lot more complicated than we just don't accept female singers who don't have a technically gifted voice. it's also massively unhelpful to say there isn't any female rock singers in 2014 that are as big as bruce springsteen - who the fuck is? different era (for all the big names you mentioned) that afforded that kind of success.
i could point to joanna newsom as an example of a peculiar voice that has achieved a pretty high level of success, but then you'll tell me that doesn't count because she's not playing the O2 like paul mccartney.
you're trying to reduce the issue to a neat point to fit your argument.
if it's more complicated, please do elaborate.
joanna newsom - well done for providing one example.
google "joanna newsom voice", first page is full of articles calling her voice shrill, like a dying cat, the sound of a prepubescent girl, awful, girly, nasty etc etc.
but am I really not allowed to write or think that Joanna Newsom has a voice like a dying cat? Because she does and it's horrible. Jake Bugg sounds like a demented budgie too, for parity.
but is still popular
first result for a male voice
alright how about the girl from the xx? she can't sing (at least live) and they're a huge indie band. the chvrches singer fails to hit about half the notes too. someone like fionna apple is technically able but she wails unconventionally, and is massively popular around the world. i like all these bands/people btw.
both unique and non conventional
but they are still outliers within an industry where people are making isolated vocal youtube videos of female singers to mock/prove that they "can't" sing, where lipsyncing your own music whilst running and dancing across a stage for 3 hours is seen as an embarrassment, where the term 'band' is inherently male, you have to say 'female band' if you want to note that the band has women in it, where women are routinely told they can't play properly, where music websites are predominantly populated by male weirdos who can't cope with the fact that they might be part of a general culture that denigrates women, ETC
it's really not hard to understand. if you can't see how it's sexist that female vocalists and musicians are held to different/higher standards than their male counterparts, then that's your problem and you probably need to wake up a bit.
A lot of people in these threads hold musicians to the same standards regardless and the disconnect is more because they aren't aware/don't move in circles where female musicians are held to higher standards.
I am happy to call a spade a spade regardless of where it's from, and I have utterly no fear to state that based on posting history on here.
love that particular stereotype. Every guy who posts about music online is a sociopath of course.
'don't move in circles where female musicians are held to higher standards.'
i don't move in any sort of music 'circles' but i know very well that women are held to higher standards as musicians. find it very difficult to see how anyone on this site couldn't have been exposed to that in the media and in the whole of society. maybe you all need to wake up a bit.
But not in the fringes, or at least to a much lesser extent. These are the places where unconventional voices and styles proliferate, and in my experience gender is a lot less important (and if it is then actually more attention is given to female artists in these circles, although there can be a certain treatment of them as novelty which is far from positive). Maybe this site is a lot less fringe than it used to be though.
"i don't move in any sort of music 'circles' but i know very well that women are held to higher standards as musicians"
Maybe if you did you'd realise that the same rule doesn't always apply and that the same trends aren't necessarily repeated.
this comes back to that discussion we had about record stores and outsider music scenes which you stated were oppressive for a woman. I'd suggest they're not and that they're actually more open on gender. But if you and FVBPCD want to continue categorising us all as freaks and weirdoes and denigrating us as losers then sure, keep doing so. Reinforce positive images of difference and non traditional masculinity why don't you.
I have a lot to say in reply to this, both in terms of my own experience as someone who is really into some genres of music that are very male dominated and who does move in a lot of musical circles, and also sharing an article one of my friends wrote.
While I'm doing it, remember that you are not female, have never experienced life as a woman, and you shouldn't talk over other people's lived experiences. Have you even been reading those articles I've been posting about things like stop assuming that your own experience of life is some kind of objective universal truth?
But I am inviting someone to come and frequent the places I frequent and to experience the things I experience. Because I believe and I feel that these areas are welcoming and that they offer something different. I am willing to be proved wrong. Attacking these scenes as full of 'losers' and 'weirdos' and 'freaks' is really not helpful and personally quite offensive. The losers and the freaks and weirdoes might be the most receptive (aware of the irony of that concerning a lot of the responses in this thread)
The same also works both ways: there is a lot of 'you hate xx because she is a woman and your criticism is inherently gendered' in this thread. It's entirely possible that my criticism has fuck all to do with that. So please don't try and tell me that my criticism is constructed in another way.
I realise I've fallen into the trap of mistaking a criticism of how society behaves in general as an attack on my own views and the way I construct them, but it is hard not to take the kind of criticism in here as personal. Problems with mass sweeping generalisations.
it would be nice to think that weirdos and losers would be more receptive but loads of high profile stuff like #gamergate illustrates that this isn't necessarily the case
So no I haven't read your articles.
"stop assuming that your own experience of life is some kind of objective universal truth?" - Why does everyone on here have to get so horribly personal and feel the need to belittle everyone when it comes to these arguments.
I'm not going to take the time to repeat the contents of the articles or their main points or why I felt they were applicable here, because I already took the time to post them here earlier with a little digest about each one. They are all on the share feminist articles thread. I'm happy to discuss issues, but I don't have the time or patience to individually go through the same points again and again with individual people when I can just point them to a resource.
you've made this subthread all about you, and now you're getting upset when someone's told you it's not all about you?
you've basically been saying that in a few small fringe music scenes, women are allowed to be unconventional and themselves. but the point is that people (even you and your friends) don't just exist in these smaller 'circles' but are *obviously* also exposed to mainstream culture (and even not very mainstream culture where women are held to higher standards). how could anyone possibly not be aware that women are held to higher standards. it's just ludicrous :D
women being held to unfair standards in the music industry is one (valid) point, saying we aren't accepting of unusual or alternative female vocalists is a sweeping generalization designed to suit your argument that this guys motivation for posting the vid was sexist.
and not your argument simply being a weak one. it's okay to concede a point now and again. becoming condescending towards anyone who doesn't agree with you 100% of the time isn't really helpful, is it.
yeah, 'isolated tracks' are almost always used against female artists.
I've barely ever heard of them, so the only comparable thing I can remember was that shitty Fred Durst guitar solo one.
I just find it weird that there are probably 100 different instances of gender double-standards being applied to Courtney Love throughout her life, yet this is one where it seems far from clear that sexism was the driving motivation.
seems a bit odd to be insisting this isn't sexist just because we don't know the exact, specific motivations of the person who posted the video.
the deeply unsexy motivation of an unpaid invoice.
Conversely, surely if you're accusing something of being sexist, you DO need to know the exact, specific motivations of the person that put it up? Otherwise there's a (roughly) 50/50 chance it's going to be a woman regardless of motivation
how can you be sure that the 'unpaid invoice' motivation was separate from the knowledge that the misogos would have a field day if this got out? pretty sure someone who is courtney love's sound engineer would be aware of the currency this sort of stunt would have. also, not sure if you're aware but women can do sexist stuff too.
think it's quite revealing that an otherwise funny and smart person like you is still struggling with this stuff.
I thought the argument is whether the video, petty as it is, is sexist - in and of itself, it doesn't appear to be. And the motivation for publishing, while again being as petty as fuck, also doesn't appear to be (if we take it as the truth).
If the argument was reframed in a slightly different way - will some people respond to this in a misoginistic way? - I couldn't possibly dispute that, they will. But the same people doing that are as likely to react that way to a non-isolated live performance by Courtney Love, or even a recorded performance. It's a nasty phenomenon unrelated to the video.
someone's motivations for making the video might not be sexist but this doesn't stop the video having a sexist meaning. 'the death of the sexist'.
that something like sexism might be a force that is irreducible to intent or motivation? Yes.
Can't people simply accept arguments like the one linked to in the OP as interesting observations from perspectives that one might not have considered before, and which offer an insight into how some of the things they say and do might affect others (or might otherwise have consequences) in ways that they never intended? ...Apparently not.
that a lot of drownedinsound mansplainers come out of the woodwork
position vacated by limbo, then?
he's really been trying the past few months
i think he's earned it by now
Is this an actual postition that people are jostling for? Wouldn't they be better off taking up competitive vegetable growing or table tennis or something?
What have I been doing? Have you actually read what I've posted in this thread? I think all that I've done here is allow for a lively debate.
any criticism of a woman is taken as sexist. I'm not a big fan of hers because i think her fame vastly outstrips her talent, she often doesn't come across as a particularly pleasant person and the addiction in the public eye shit's pretty tiresome. These are pretty much the same reasons i don't like Pete Doherty very much, not because he's a man. Glad we all agree.
I'm amazed that no-one has pointed out that this writer is happy enough to lay into K.Price.
that the guitar playing has been overdubbed 'Shreds' style. And the vocals are only a bit shaky in the first 20 seconds or so. I've never been a particularly big Courtney fan, but this video does have the whiff of a stitch up. Seriously, there's no way that every note she's hitting on the verse is a duff like on the audio track. Courtneys likely played guitar for the better part of 30 years, despite all the addiction issues etc, you just don't all of a sudden forget how to play an A chord.
that she can no longer play guitar properly and she pretty much has it on stage for familiarity. Shes turned way down in the PA apparently so you can't hear her anyways.
if someone genuinely has lost some of their ability to play their instrument because of addiction related illness or disability or another condition, i really don't get how that's at all funny or in any way a bad reflection on that person?
She hasn't lost her ability to play guitar, either because of a disability or previous addictions. What are you on about?
haven't read it myself but people have said that courtney has said she has lost the ability to play due to drug use, which makes sense as she used to be able to play fine (hole unplugged being a good example)
cos you don't lose an ability to play an instrument through drug use when you're so good at it just like you don't lose an ability to fry an egg or tie your shoelaces.
I've read articles where she admits to not picking up a guitar for years so I'd say she's so out of practice to not be able to do it well. Drugs may or not be responsible for that but didn't cause her to lose an ability.
dunno, I would of thought you can, injecting stuff messes up veins and whole limbs, nerve damage, passing out and cutting off circulation, think the guy from sparklehorse lost the ability to walk for a while after taking too much and passing out awkwardly, think john fruscante couldn't play for a long time
what a weird response to what I said. honestly don't get how people on here can so often fail to grasp really simple ideas.
"IF" (so not taking it as a given)
"SOMEONE" (so not courtney love specifically)
"has lost some of their ability to play their instrument because of addiction related illness or disability or another condition" (so basically if they have lost some of their ability to play an instrument for ANY reason, which courtney love has outright said is the case for her).
would her fans really care if she wasn't playing guitar?
familarity n all dat
I guess that the point isn't that it is actually bad, but that people jumped on it. Personally I believe that people jumped on it because it is SO bad and it would have been of interest/shared if it had been a bloke.
The fact that it happens to so many women is something that I was unaware of and is probably a valid point if it's true that it is disproportionately women that are singled out. I just haven't noticed the isolation thing at all other than this video.
I said I hadn't noticed that the isolation thing was happening AT ALL. Not just towards women.
Or was it where I made the generally agreed on point that the video isn't necessarily sexist, but the imbalance in numbers of women that his has happened to?
"The fact that it happens to so many women is something that I was unaware of" which is a pretty typical thing to hear in these debates.
the fact that I didn't know that the isolation thing was actually something that happened regularly, or indeed at all other than this instance.
Kind of funny that you're actually taking a pop at the point where I actually acknowledge the problem as well.
It makes me implode.
and the vocals are fine after the intro. So he hasn't warmed up, so fucking what?
Trout Mask Replica.
An industry that's spent twenty years helping roll an egg off the table then laughing at the yolk for running when the shell cracks.
Like I genuinely didn't know it was a thing.
fvbpcd touched on it a bit upthread
britney, katy perry, mariah, adele, whitney, ariana grande, miley cyrus, lorde...
it's a thing people have done for a few years now to 'prove' that these women 'can't sing' or are 'fakes'. usually highly successful pop stars.
beyonce's fans have started circulating ones of her, as an intentionally positive thing, usually when she does a new live performance e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4Z8eGCvMMU or even this studio compilation https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZvOhgFLQVs
thing is, with 'stan wars' etc. and fans going against each other, videos like this are often used as 'evidence' to 'win' online arguments against katy perry and britney fans, etc.
I wasn't trying to undermine an argument or anything but hadn't heard of it before now.
of course there's also the 'shreds' meme and things like got 2b real. they're completely different phenomenons, i think, in that they're legitimately fake/jokes and people are in on it.
there are vocal-only equivalents of queen and the beatles that rockists like to use to educate the sheeples that pop music requires no real talent or skill.
surely that shows the motivation isn't specifically sexist?
Never liked her music, never felt like she had a great deal of talent, always felt she overshadowed more deserving female artists as an exponent of riot grrrl.
Also she really cannot sing or play guitar at this stage in her career, that much is clear. Objectively speaking this is true.
that Love only got catapulted to fame when she was with Cobain and that it was her association with a man that got her where she was.
I think on reading the thread a lot of people are maybe confusing their own views ("she is shit at guitar and this has nothing to do with her sex, Wavves is also a terrible guitarist and so is Doherty/Durst whoever") with the media view which definitely puts more focus on this incident than others. Personally I have zero tolerance for shit/awful musicianship whatever sex is responsible for it, but clearly the media is more 'forgiving' (read: doesn't bring it to attention) for male performers.
But there's only so much space in the public eye for artists for each 'genre'. Just personally don't like the idea of Courtney Love as a figurehead for Riot Grrl, just as Kurt Cobain as the touchpoint for grunge pisses me off.
courtney isn't considered a "figurehead for riot grrl".
dunno why anyone would think she was. hole were/are an la band, as babes in toyland were a minnesota band. riot grrrl was a scene exclusive to the pacific northwest.
you said she was undeserved of being the face of the movement, or that she 'overshadowed' everything riot grrrl - when she wasn't ever a part of it at grassroots level, only through association with kurt (who contributed to the community in the northwest before nirvarna - i think, anyway. not an expert because i don't care enough about it) and through the alleged rivalry with bikini kill.
i said why can't female artists co-exist because you said she "overshadowed more deserving female artists as an exponent of riot grrrl" and also you feel the need to defend/separate your indie/critically acclaimed/underground female musicians from courtney love.
There are loads of successful front-men / male solo artists whose voices might be viewed as an "acquired taste". Leonard Cohen, Bob Dylan, Elvis Costello, Kurt Cobain, Joe Strummer, Shane MacGowan*, etc etc. Plus loads more in alternative / indie circles.
Whereas the majority of successful female singers have technically good voices, whether soulful (Aretha) or range-spanning (Mariah).
So the wider point is that yes, there is an expectation for female singers to be note-perfect.
And I don't think the Fred Durst guitar solo analogy is a particularly good one - if anything, it reinforces the point that much music criticism is sexist. (Men: you should be able to play guitar! Women: you should be able to sing!).
* This isn't to say these people's voices aren't good; they're just, well, a bit rough at times.
So the wider point is that yes, there is an expectation for female singers to be note-perfect... and that expectation is sexist.
the fred durst guitar solo video is sexist.
The STATE of this place.
it's unrelated to this though - because if you can state that fred durst widdly-waddling away on his axe is sexist without giggling you've got cooties.
you sound like you've aged
So I guess I aged yesterday
but there are definitely distinct defined for men and women in rock. Didn't think that was that controversial a point, tbh!
I've been variously thissed by Crispin, Raanraals and Infirmary - all the signs are there that I've accidentally gone off on one
I'll look forward to your zxcvbnm- style implosion in the next 24 hours.
whilst swiping on a touchscreen.
You disgust me.
The difference is that women probably unfairly will get more shit for not being able to.
There is a whole argument around DIY/unconventional musicianship here but we're way too far down to deal with this now.
If mocking Fred Durst is wrong, I don't want to be right.
'whole argument around DIY/unconventional musicianship' way back up there. seems quite weird that you're now trying to say that this is a different point when her argument was basically that women aren't allowed to have 'unconventional musicianship' but men are.
That's not remotely true, at least not for me. And probably not for a lot of people on here. Ever listened to Pharmakon? Or Kim Gordon? Suzanne Ciani? Daphne Oram?
"they don’t make feminine music. It’s not male or female."
Maybe they're under-represented but that's just the same as the way that women are under represented throughout music in a lot of ways, which is a bigger issue than this. FKA Twigs is 'the' breakout female artist of this year (for me and plenty of others on this site) and she's entirely unconventional. And all the better and more brilliant for it.
I just think the problem becomes when it's seen as inherently sexist to critique a female artist. The article originally posted suggests that Courtney should be judged according to the same standards as her male peers. Which I'm perfectly happy to do and say that she sounds like a sloppy second rate grunge act who hasn't rehearsed enough.
I don't think that's the case. I accept that her sex magnifies the attention and the nature of the criticism, but for me the criticism is still valid because it is about her musical ability and our judgement of it. End.
regardless of gender
Should have read 'guitarists should be able to play guitar'. Within the confines of their chosen style and their chosen level of expertise. And that the public reserves the right to be able to criticise them for it regardless of their gender.
I'm just saying that I think there are double-standards. To give a reverse example: rock critics get in a froth about St. Vincent on account of her guitar-playing prowess as if a woman who can shred is in some way freakish.
It's to do with someone known for making rock music with a guitar, not seeming able to play the guitar at all. This may be a misconception though as the guitar must've been muted at the time, otherwise the audience would've noticed, so it's basically just a question of whether it's OK to mime playing the guitar live. For me, no one should mime if they're playing a concert where people have paid to see them live, and it doesn't matter whether the musician involved is miming vocals, or any instrument, or whether the instrumental part they're miming is being played for real by another musician on stage, as opposed to it being on a backing track. Say no to miming!
keep up the good work with tokenizing female musicians, DiS
would be much better if these threads were more inclusive, rather than always turning into petty "mansplainers" vs white women's tears.
To the mansplaining corner for 10 minutes.
I'm gonna have to hand back my newly acquired feminism club-card :(
Some good points raised by both 'sides', and some quite positive discourse. See you all again in November.
Hey, you're not the referee. I'm in the middle of writing a massive long screed for this. You can't even give me a yellow card. You haven't got any cards or a whistle. So there.
Ok, I'm putting this at the bottom, because the thread layout above has got really complicated, and I don't trust this website to actually put it as a reply in the proper place that makes sense, and it's some general remarks too, not just about Courtney Love, but in reply to some of the comments people wrote above about music scenes and women.
The other week I was at a big gig where I knew the support band. I was there to see the well-known headliners, but really pleased to see the support too, who are great. The frontwoman sings and plays the drums at the same time. She has a great voice and is also a powerful drummer. The lighting on stage was quite dramatic, with some white uplights at the front of the stage.
There were some guys next to me who would not stop going on about the frontwoman’s boobs (because there was a dramatic shadow underneath them from the lighting). It was a constant stream of remarks through the first song, tits this, tits that. It was pretty clear they just saw her as a walking pair of tits. After it became apparent from a couple of songs that they had suddenly realised she was a great drummer, to their astonishment it seemed, they started talking about her playing the drums well as if she was a talking dog doing it, rather than you know, actually listening to the music. They were also trying to catch her out with mistakes, and when she didn’t make any they seemed almost disappointed that they had to admit she was a very good drummer. When it became apparent that they weren’t going to shut up, I just moved away rather than confront them and interrupt the music. Later I was having a drink with the singer and a few other friends before the headliners came on. She was so happy at having done a great performance at the biggest gig her band had done that there was no way I was spoiling it by telling her about those guys then.
Those guys weren’t some kind of laddish oik you can all look down your noses and go “oh we’re not like that, we’re so above those things”. They honestly could have been the doppelgängers of some of the guys who posted their photos here the other week. It wasn’t any of those guys, but you can see my point. They were saying those things because they thought they could get away with it in that situation. It’s not something that’s isolated to rough, common types you can all feel comfortably above. Why do you think I called people nuts readers with record collections when I wanted to be barbed, and why do you think people got so riled?
Since I was a teenager, I’ve been into music scenes that tend to skew very male-heavy. Math rock, post-hardcore, punk, noise improv. That kind of stuff. I constantly have to deal with men assuming I’m someone’s girlfriend who has been dragged along to a gig against my will, and when they do accept that I might actually want to listen to this music of my own accord they start grilling me with trivia questions. They don’t do this to my male friends when we’re out. If a man says they like a band, it seems to be accepted. Even when I do pass the useless trivia challenge, because my head is stuffed with the useless info that seems to be the currency in these situations and I have lots of records and no lads mags, I then get treated like some kind of surprising and amusing performing monkey. I think there are still plenty of men out there who think that I might be into music because it’s what I’ve heard boys like and I want to impress them, rather than enjoying the music for its own sake. Then when these vague acquaintances are talking in a group about music with me and some of my male friends, they’ll often pretend not to hear anything I say about music, but then agree with it when my male friends agree with me. These are people who would be horrified at being lumped in with Those Sexist Guys Over There. The thing is, I have plenty of female friends who like the same stuff as me, who play in bands and who put on gigs, but people are very willing to ignore the evidence of their own eyes.
Also, in terms of playing instruments. Women seem to be accepted as bassists or keyboard players because those are the “easy” ones. If you are a guitarist or drummer, people will scrutinise you for mistakes, and then use it as grounds for saying that women just can’t play. If a man is average, he’s just an average player, it’s not proof that men should just put down the instruments and stick to watching and fancying the “real” musicians (there’s also a shit idea that women only watch bands because we fancy the members). There’s a lot of pressure then that if you get on stage as a woman, then you’d better be fucking amazing or else you will be dismissed or patronised. I took up playing the guitar at a typical age, but basically sat out of the typical forming bands stage, because I was already aware of the whole phenomenon from being in audiences. In the period 1999-2003 when I was a teenager and going to local gigs multiple times a week I barely saw any female musicians playing in the Medway Towns. I saw the odd singer, a couple of acoustic singer-songwriter acts, and a couple of bassists who got some really awful remarks from people in the audience (even worse remarks if they were judged to not be conventionally attractive and therefore not stage eye candy). Pretty much every gig I went to was a 100% male lineup. I’d go up to London and watch people like PJ Harvey or Enon or whatever, but there was nothing locally, and you need to be feeling pretty confident to barge your way in to something that totally excludes you as anything else than a passive audience member and say that you deserve to be heard too. I had supportive male friends, but it didn’t really help. I don’t feel that much confidence at being fucking amazing at anything in general *now*, let alone when I was 17 and not even sure that I was “clever enough” to go to uni despite the fairly concrete evidence of my good grades and encouraging teachers. There wasn’t a great deal of concrete evidence for my musical abilities. Going on stage can be scary enough anyway without you being a sole representative who is under a lot of pressure to prove everyone wrong that you’re naturally crap. I had a four-track (which in fact I still have), I used to make tapes, not play them to anyone, and then throw them away.
Things have improved immensely in my hometown since then, I know lots of great bands there with female members on all possible instruments. Doesn’t do a whole lot of good for 2002 me though.
In about 2001 I went to see Le Tigre with a group of friends. Our group had 2 girls including me, two queer guys and one straight guy. We were all aged 17-20. The straight male friend ended up feeling very uncomfortable, and stayed at the back when we went down the front. Kathleen Hanna kept making shoutouts to all the female and/or LGBQT audience members and talking about sexism in between songs. The audience was also heavily female. On the train home my friend said he hadn’t had much fun because he had a strong feeling that everyone didn’t want him there, and he kind of stuck out like a sore thumb in the audience. I said, yeah, that’s how the rest of us often feel when we go to gigs, but we have to stick it out if we want to see the music we love, which made him have a good think. We were all young at the time, but the rest of us were inured to that experience already, but it was the first time it had happened to him.
The other week I was at a big gig where I knew the support band. I was there to see the well-known headliners, but really pleased to see the support too, who are great. The frontwoman sings and plays the drums at the same time. She has a gre
And your point is?
(they're massive hypocrites if they don't)
this is almost in the LLB league of pointless BANTS!!! stories. thanks a lot.
Mate, you've still got lots of making up to do for WongWei
and really overshadowed more deserving women for the title of 'figurehead of early 2000s punk revival'
she's still married to Josh Homme as per the internet
she also released a solo album earlier this year.
You might be confusing him with Nick Olivieri. Tim Armstrong got creepster points in the first place for being over 30 and marrying a teenager. Teenagers get a pass for being naive though, and she has turned out to be awesome.
i read once that tim armstrong was really weird/threatening and tried to manipulate her life after they split up, and effectively 'blacklisted' brody and the distillers from promoters, being friends with other bands, industry people etc.
"It took her three years to leave Armstrong, and when she did, the aftermath was brutal. His celebrity friends waged a public campaign against her, criticising Dalle in the press, and reportedly threatening the male Distillers and blacklisting anyone associated with the band. "We lost every fucking body. Me and my guys were left there standing alone, holding each other." "
This is a really good article my friend Stef wrote about sexism in music (it also encompasses Drowned in Sound’s facebook page):
Here is her article about being a black woman in punk bands. A while back she put the word out that she was looking for other black female musicians who wanted to form a band that combined a 60s motown girl group vibe with punk but with lyrics about political topics. She’s already in several other bands, but her pretty simple musicians wanted ad made loads of men crawl out of the woodwork, men who would pat themselves on the back about being progressive to go “WAAAAAAHHHHH! You’re really sexist and racist! Why can’t I be in ALL THE BANDS? Why isn’t everything about me? WAAAAAAAHHHHHHH!” (the resulting band that formed are great by the way)
I’ve been involved over the years with a organising a lot of events that specifically designate themselves as safe spaces, and I have a lot of friends who put on gigs and nights with the same idea. When DarwinDude tried to bring in the idea of a safe space tag on here a lot of people honestly didn’t know what it meant, or why you would ever need or want it, which speaks volumes, basically saying that there’s a massive contingent of people here who have never had the personal experiences that would make you understand. If an event is designated as a safe space, it means that you can feel confident that you can come to the event and have fun, and no-one is going to spoil it by sexually, racially, homophobically, transphobically etc harass or assault you. You can have fun and leave all the absolute shit that is constantly flung at you outside, and feel confident that the organisers will swiftly eject anyone who does spoil it.
A little while ago on a lovely summer’s evening, I was having a drink and a smoke with two female friends outside a bar where one of them was playing a gig. The friend whose gig it was is trans. While we were having our nice chat, a man came up and aggressively shoved his face near hers and bellowed “WHAT ARE YOU?” into her face. We couldn’t tell if it was just a crass drunk who would wander off again, or if we were going to have to try to stop our friend getting (another) beating for daring to exist in public. Luckily the guy was more of a clueless drunk and she managed to defuse the situation with a bit of charm (sadly she’s far too practiced at dealing with these situations) and we suddenly had something very urgent we had to find in the back room. I only ever see that friend at events that are specifically designated as safe space, for pretty obvious reasons.
One of my friends is running this campaign where pubs and bars display posters saying that they have signed up to an anti-harassment policy and the staff receive training on how to deal with it. She is running the London version, and has found people to run the same campaigns in other cities around the country. I did the posters for the branch in Medway which will be rolling out a bit later this year (they had to be different to the London ones for various different local reasons). They could do with some money.
(*if that's not the right term please don't shoot me)
can't even imagine how brave/thick skinned you need to be to go out for a night at a pub in the fucking arse end of kent
This was in London where she got that treatment. I would hate to think what would happen to her if she went out in Chatham, I honestly would. I mean I grew up there, and there is a small selection of places I'm willing to go out there.
one of my favourite things is that cctv video of the chumps in swansea who attacked 2 guys dressed as women, who happened to be male cage fighters in fancy dress.
i live a simple life.
I dunno, I think she deserves a medal for persevering with going out and playing in band in london a lot of the time.
Let us know once you've tried it for yourself
Looks like a really cool project.
I've witnessed a lot of what you're talking about, particularly at gigs with trans band members etc and attitudes at gigs just needs to improve wholesale imo. This Courtney Love thing is a protracted example of how cruel audiences are, complicit with a cruel industry too.
Thanks, I mostly expected to be told to shut up, or have people go "UGH why do you have to write so much"
Nuts folded :(
by online competitors.
by feminists on account of their outmoded attitudes towards women
in the face of oh fuck this
This thread has been tweeted TWICE.
"What troubles us most about this ‘authentic’ riposte to those Capital Radio ads is that it contains a thinly veiled threat of a new Florence and the Machine album. Because shouting in tune is not the same as singing, and this is still a lesson the kerrrazy redhead still hasn’t learned yet."
Yeah that's quite clearly sexist. haven't read a review on dis for about 4 yeas though.
"imagine what this thread would've been like if Stealthy still posted"
"I think everyone here is silly, and yet here I still am" in every thread, if you like
a fidel_catstro one.
It was a great time.
her guitar? well its like TH said ^.
I think I'd heard she admitted she couldnt play no more