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Does anyone on here care about feminism?
Even gets a reference to DiS's favourite word 'hysteria' in there...
...by male posters on here, plus the general vibe of the place seems to have got increasingly laddish recently (I blame Wishpig doing a bunk).
although by doing so it is almost inevitable that I will do it a diservice due to my clumsy ugly wording and expression.
A lot of men here speak out in support of feminist issues if not feminism itself because it doesn't crop up a lot
And a lot of the laddishness seems tongue in cheek since they know they're all bedwetters
theres a lot of lads on here who are really defensive and proper rub their thighs over arguing with female posters
without asking and listening to women on here who have spoken about sexism on dis. or people on here who try to challenge it then get loads of shit for it.
guys on dis seem more interested in trying to defend themselves as 'not sexist' and in 'support of feminist issues' than in actually engaging with any feminist ideas. just telling you that as someone who's been posting on here for several years and had to argue with people about even the most basic feminist concepts. the way people talk about me (and other women) on here is often really sexist.
and i wonder how people would feel if i tried to argue that a lot of racism is just 'tongue in cheek'.
love that you've just gone "all the men on here are laddish pricks"
then immediatley started complaining about how they spend time defending themselves rather than engaging in any serious discussion
where are you getting the laddish pricks bit from?
"all the men on here are laddish pricks" and also ignored everything else I said.
not that weird though, expected.
The first post was a direct quote (which you interpreted as you liked) and then she actually made some valid points. And you seem to feel there's a weird ironic/hypocritical aspect to that. Perhaps you'd like to explain what it is, because otherwise your post just makes you look like a total wanker.
how was I supposed to interpret the direct quote then? sorry if I got it wrong.
I don't think DD's post was ironic, just pointing out the reason people defend themselves is because they get slagged off. I don't have any answers on how to make the world a better place and I can't really give any examples of sexism that I've had to face, so I can't really offer anything on that front. but if someone calls me a nuts reader or implies I don't care about women's rights then of course I'm going to stand up for myself.
don't mean to come across as a wanker but there you go. I guess the lesson here is that some people shouldn't participate in feminism.
If I'd posted it would you think I was call all the men on here 'laddish pricks' or would you think I was making allusions to the massive debate where that was said and also a slightly tongue-in-cheek response? I kind of think you would. It says a lot more about your instant dismissal of DD's views that you chose to get upset over it.
I don't see anything that's saying you are personally at wrong, it's a general comment on the community. If you feel that doesn't represent you then there are far less confrontational ways of responding, e.g. "I'd hope I'm better than most of the guys here around this," or, "I'd like to think you're not including me in the nuts with record collection type guys," and then having a serious discussion.
Instead you tried to defend yourself by claiming DD was being ridiculous in stating the men on here spend their time defending themselves instead of having a serious discussion.
well my recollection of that thread was that DD agreed with that sentiment so I assumed that's what she was getting at here. if not and she was just highlighting it as a funny quote then I apologise.
but if it was a general comment on the community then I'd still challenge it. I'm not better than most of the guys on here, I'm definitely one of the people with the most to learn about this stuff yet feel like getting compared to some lads mag reader is pretty unfair.
ANYWAY the point was that obviously people are going to stand up for themselves, even if they don't have anything to contribute elsewhere. that doesn't have to mean they care about how they appear more than the actual issues being discussed.
in one post we're getting berated for not contributing and in another being told to shut up and leave it to women. what's a boy to do?
"'Nuts readers with record collections'.
TheBeautifulOnes_ | 15 Feb '14, 13:56 | ^ This | Reply
TheoGB, georgiabeth, CillaCrack, orangejuice, and kostenurky this'd this"
if you go back and read the thread (which still exists btw but let's not bump it), there's actually nothing to show whether i affirm 'that sentiment' or not. interesting that your 'recollection' of that thread has let you down.
no offence but just so you know, you're one of the people who makes it very difficult to post about feminism on here.
"This site is really misogynistic and I've been saying that for years."
"The general culture is pretty much what you've described too."
but then you also go on to say "Most of the guys on here are alright" so maybe I've got the wrong end of the stick.
sorry for being such a cunt, I honestly don't mean to be. I'll try and stay out of these debates in future.
but sometimes you are very dismissive
see you next week, maybe.
But felt that it was unfair to say all men here don't care about feminism, I do. I wasn't defending laddishness by saying it was tongue in cheek tbh I was thinking about how ridiculous it is, can see why it seemed like it though :/
which proves we do all care about feminism. More than anything.
what is wrong with you guys that when someone says "guys on here do this ..." you hear "all men are unrelenting sexist pricks!!!"
honestly, no wonder people like me get accused of going straight for the jugular instead of making nice, measured, polite requests. even when something totally reasonable and basically incontrovertible is said, people still seem to go out of their way to not get it.
literally nobody said "DiS is ____ feminist"
RFWare said "a lot of men", which is incredibly vague enough as to be inflammatory to you, but utterly innocuous to him.
a handful of men might have been more accurate.
i thought i'd covered that, and hopefully the post below explains it a bit too.
i guess any men discussing feminism at all can seem like a lot when you compare it to other forums :(
But there's more than a few - you're one of them - and I felt the OP coupled with the first couple of comments painted an unfair picture. I didn't mean to appear to bullshit. Obviously.
having said that, i think the big problem here is confirmation bias. as a male poster, i see pro-feminist posts from male DiSers and think, "hey, DiS is a reasonably progressive place", and i'll ignore or underplay the sexist/misogynist stuff since it doesn't fit in with the idea of DiS that i want to have.
idk, i tend to lurk a lot...
But in that case, if someone challenges that, saying they personally can't or won't 'ignore or underplay the sexist/misogynist stuff', you should surely just respond with, "fair enough", rather than getting upset over someone highlighting things you've just admitted you prefer to ignore?
that got rewritten down and down to, yup, fair enough. didn't think it added anything to the conversation.
On here like meowington, Morrissey, Plastiniki and others who say it isnt an issue on DiS. That's like 70% of the female posters. We live in a sexist free utopia
wasn't she responsible for such classics as
"should women be able to cook" and "all women who have one night stands are stupid"
no wonder that woman hit you with a ladder
just going to check now whether anyone else has called it that
...I now have this stuck in my head:
I do now
Hadn't noticed him mention it the first time I read it...
Where do i get tickets....?
this doesn't really seem to add much to the debate.
That said I think it's good that it revisits the fundamentals of feminism because as the recent #womenagainstfeminism campaign suggested modern feminism seems to be losing a lot of it's core audience due to confusion regarding what it does or does not represent.
"#womenagainstfeminism campaign suggested modern feminism seems to be losing a lot of it's core audience due to confusion regarding what it does or does not represent."
there was probably more people pointing out how stupid it was than people actually participating in it. dont blame feminists for some stupid misogynistic campaign, blame sexism.
"there was probably more people pointing out how stupid it was than people actually participating in it."
I wasn't blaming feminists, if anything I was mulling over people's perception of modern feminism. I personally thought that it was clear that most of the placards being touted were incorrect/uninformed but I also thought they provided some points that were worth engaging with:
Basically this: http://time.com/3028827/women-against-feminism-gets-it-right/
wouldn't sweat it too much
I'm a particularly big fan of how he follows DD around the boards backing her up like the guy in the video here:
"I would hit that so hard people would sing epic ballads about it for generations yet too come.
- Winner of best male feminist 2014
"one of the best things that a male feminist can do is to shut up and let a woman do the talking."
to understand the subtlety of the 'not all men' thingy (it took me a double take to get its gist, it is possible to misinterpret it)
Sometimes it does need men to become versed in arguing for feminism, especially in places where women do not have a sufficient platform. e.g. Thomas Sankara was a great feminist, and was able to do things women couldnt, because women were to oppressed to be able to (in upper volta) of course, the overarching drive for him was general equality and loving socialism, but to get there there had to be positive specific changes to rectify that which was utterly crap before.
just saying you know, sometimes you need to have something to get around the misunderstanding of 'notallmen' by (mostly) men.
There I even managed to incorporate a 'great man' cos its that entrenched in me :D (my excuse for mentioning this person (who happened to be a man, is that he was martyred for his principles and equalising ways (by reactionary men))
In the interests of balance 'Bob Marley was a sexist philandering pig'.
but so is Sankara.
I know hes a man, but as feminists we have to support such people who are emerge in some one-sided societies (not suggesting this isnt)
and Sankara is cool so men who like to emulate might be swayed.
( a bit like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DE3r_CgScms)
the needs of social revolution in general, but outlined many practical steps to start.
you feel it's right but there is niggling worry that what if life is just this massive power struggle and that as you give up these advantages and hand them over to others, can you trust that they won't treat you the way you the way you treated them?
"Guys, your doctor might tell you to lose a few pounds – but the taxi driver will not; the Daily Mail will not. You won’t open the Sun and compare your own cock to that of a well-endowed model. You won’t get dressed for a party and worry if you look like a slut, or get called a slut, or get raped on the way home “because you look like a slut”. In the rare event that you do get raped, the police won’t seem to mind what you were wearing. Lawyers won’t ask what you were wearing; your mother won’t ask what you were wearing."
Not always a fan of Webb in the NS but the whole article is pretty much dead on.
i say and do, and to make sure it's positive and equal, and yet almost always fuck it up. Which is why I normally stay out of the discussions.
Let it be said that DD and others have greatly improved my understanding of a lot of things, this being one of them.
I think that's sort of the next point that a lot of us here need to work towards, myself included. Not getting things right all the time, but being okay being told bluntly that we've fucked up and not immediately feeling shamed/attacked and then disengaging. As we know, my track record with flaring up at even light criticism is bad across the board, but I think on DiS (and just in general) a huge number of guys are only willing to engage with feminism if they feel like they won't get shot down. This isn't about you btw, more about the way that things should progress.
that people can come to a subject with misunderstandings but a desire to better themselves, and rather than being engaged with compassion, they're met with derision and ridicule.
I sometimes think men are seeking not just compassion but a form of congratulation because they finally 'got it'. So when the general reaction is not that, but instead "okay you're up to speed, fine, it should have been obvious" we feel like it's an anticlimax and stop engaging.
Because if someone turned round said 'guys I've been thinking lately about how racism is in fact bad! What do you think?'...well, no one would be handing out a medal.
Poor lambs :(
because he just said what i was saying in one sentence, damn it.
but unfortunately we live in a very messy world where people are at odds with each other over a lot of things. and some people (women) still have to struggle for the same basic rights, recognition, equality, liberation etc. i don't get greeted with 'compassion' when i bring my experience and voice to these conversations either. i'm also met with 'derision and ridicule'. if people are still trying to suggest than anger is unwarranted in this situation, then sorry but i don't think it's really our responsibility to be super compassionate.
tbh i'm not really sure what pegfeet is referring to cause my experience of dis is spending sometimes literally hours 'engaging' with people. which obviously shows a certain level of patience and commitment to finding common ground. and er, as many people have suggested, it is productive.
but that might have someway implied I was embarrassed of posting it publicly. In the 7/8 years or so I've been on here my way of thinking about issues that I'd (shamefully, looking back) never really thought about much at all has completely changed and I'd like to think my behaviour and attitude towards these things has also been heavily affected. Admittedly, I was starting from a pretty low point, but the point still stands.
I don't often post in these threads as I'm probably the least articulate person in the world, but I read them all, and count you (amongst others) as almost solely responsible for opening my eyes to a lot of things that I was completely oblivious to.
So, yeah, cheers for that. It is productive. Keep up the good work.
I remember being proper mean at one point and asking why DD was bothering in fighting the good fight on DiS when there's a whole world out there (without considering it doesn't need to be a mutually-exclusive situation). But actually the whole boards have been changed considerably because of a specific few female posters, and it's striking reading threads even four years ago and how things have changed.
I think people like you and georgiabeth are better than most at dealing with things in a productive way, and it's not an easy thing to do, so it's kind of a shame this conversation has come about in this thread as it looks like I'm referring to this thread, whereas it actually just came up cause xylopwn triggered the thought in the post I was replying to.
I think the main reason you're met with ridicule and derision as opposed to equivalent posters in the other kinds of threads I posted about, is people are generally less inclined to accept their own failings or lack of knowledge when it comes to feminism, as opposed to the other subjects. Part of knowing a lot about something like this, or being able to provide an insightful perspective, does unfortunately involve being met with some unpleasant reactions. I'm not saying approaching these things with compassion means you get compassion back. You often don't. I know that from my own experience.
But I still passionately believe it's the best way of making changes.
but speaking from experience, a lot of people unfortunately don't begin with a willingness to 'better themselves' or to better understand certain things. i think dis has got a lot better for this though and i'm seeing less and less people who just want to get one up on each other or who see 'feminism' debates as a kind of parlour game.
still get a lot of 'it's jsut the interneeeet' type comments from people who can't refrain from posting in a thread that's not for them in the first place.
in a dismissive or confrontational way, I think everyone's well within their rights to deal with that however aggressively or dismissively they want to. No issues with that at all.
Women being confrontational with men when it comes to feminism is fine, because the men are not dealing with it every day.
As well say someone who's starving isn't allowed to come angrily into a discussion on the availability of food with someone who's well fed.
Let's for instance consider women 'the experts' on feminism and men 'the ignorant'. I'm talking about how 'the ignorant' approach 'the experts' and how 'the experts' deal with different kinds of approaches. And that applies for all kinds of threads. Politics threads, science threads, racism threads... whatever it might be. I think there is a really unhelpful attitude of not addressing genuine questions with genuine open responses. Which always creates conflict and never cultivates actual progress, in whatever field.
sometimes it might come off as though the people answering them are a bit tired of doing so, but that's because...they probably are?
The times that people get shot down is where they read something about feminism outside of DiS, link it, and then go LOL LOOK THIS IS WRONG RIGHT? And then get super upset when they get told to fuck off.
I think there is a strong level of snark that's usually unnecessary. If it happens in feminism threads, it's usually guys doing it actually.
was just getting a drink, what's up?
"I have a degree in feminist studies" might have been better, though. ;-)
the this was not to the compassion bit, more the ridicule & derision.
and I don't think anyone here has a problem with feminism.
I don't think it makes any difference. I don't think anyone here would publicly say they had a problem with either equality or feminism. But their opinions and posts might sometimes suggest they do.
Am I going to talk about it on DiS as light relief from boredom at work.
what do you do that distinguishes you from someone who doesn't care about gender equality (not saying everyone has to "do" anything concrete, just wondering if you spend time out of work reading about it or challenging sexism?).
"Am I going to talk about it on DiS as light relief from boredom at work.
1) at work if someone says something out of turn (sexist) I'll pull them up on it.
about a guy who very subtly pressed up against me on the bus on the way home, and how I couldn't move because then I'd have to brush my boobs or bum past him, and I felt couldn't say anything because he could so easily deny it.
Anyway, my friend said 'I am so sorry' and I just thought that was the greatest response ever and made me feel really happy. Not 'I am so sorry, but I would never do that' (obviously he wouldn't though!) or 'Are you sure it's what he was doing?' etc. I thought it might be a nice helpful example of what you guys could do as male feminists.
Why take responsibility to apologise for someone elses actions, it means nothing.
"I'm sorry society shits on everyone at different levels"
Hope you all feel nice now.
From now on, I will only say "sorry for your loss" after I've killed someone.
or are you just repeating a cultural norm statement.
If someone got mugged, you'd just say 'I'm sorry, are you alright?' not 'You sure he wasn't just asking for change?' 'did you have your wallet poking out?' etc
because why take responsibility to apologise for the inescapable fact of human mortality?
I'm more of a "anything i can do to help" kind of guy
but i do find it weird how "i'm sorry" has two related but distinct meanings and I find it weird saying it in the sympathy sense cos it seems to imply guilt
it will probably show up now
can you explain how that's an important distinction here? empathy is sort of "i know how you feel" isn't it? i've never been a woman trapped on a bus.
it does though, you say "i'm sorry", someone else says "it's not your fault"
that's the wrong context and meaning of the word really anyway.
In this instance it's an expression of sympathy or empathy.
I'm sorrowful on hearing about your loss is a bit of a mouthful. Stuff gets curtailed and context masks the linguistic oddity.
'I'm sorry that happened to you'
not apologising on behalf of the guy being a perv
"that's awful, are you ok?"
i'd be fine with that, sorry implies guilt.
there is a such a thing as collective guilt?
you don't have to use the term sorry in those contexts (i don't really like using it either, just always sounds a bit awkward/insincere when i say it) and 'that's awful, are you ok?' is obv a totally acceptable alternative, but if you think every time someone else says it they're implying guilt you must live in terrible fear of all those murderers you're surrounded by.
it doesn't actually imply guilt, but it just seems like a misuse of the word
of course, it's been used so much in that situation that it probably doesn't really carry that implication .....
sor·ry [sor-ee, sawr-ee] Show IPA
adjective, sor·ri·er, sor·ri·est.
feeling regret, compunction, sympathy, pity, etc.: to be sorry to leave one's friends; to be sorry for a remark; to be sorry for someone in trouble.
regrettable or deplorable; unfortunate; tragic: a sorry situation; to come to a sorry end.
sorrowful, grieved, or sad: Was she sorry when her brother died?
...and then all the way down at DEFINITION SIX: (used interjectionally as a conventional apology or expression of regret): Sorry, you're misinformed. Did I bump you? Sorry.
words: sometimes they have many meanings!
.....still, i'm defeinitely right... that form is uh, antiquated now isn't it.
being used to mean 'not literally' more frequently than it's used to mean literally (may already be at that point tbh), you'll argue that using literally in its original sense (using literally literally, one might say) is a 'misuse of the word'. COME ON.
this is all still relevant to the issue at hand because the argument was sparked by safebruv getting annoyed at nice_squirrel's friend for apparently apologising on behalf of ALL MEN and therefore unfairly implying the guilt of ALL MEN, when it really clearly wasn't being used in that way. which is a beautiful performance of #needlesslydefensive and #notallmen
but I like the choice of saying 'sorry' without immediately having to say 'not in a way that implies I'm guilty of course, I'm a good man, praise me!'
also my second post was not entirely serious
although this just reminded me of when ... that ukip twat (godfrey something) was trying to say that he was using slutty in it's original meaning.
On Newsnight the other day, he was claiming the word "slut" had no sexual connotations at all in "the north". Apparently it's just used to mean untidy.
as if that makes it any better, as well. oh RIGHT you just meant that women are all really dirty and don't do enough housework? THAT'S OKAY THEN.
But I really believe that our whole society is in a fucking savage position atm, that literally everyone hates each other, and it's really depressing.
Women have to live with sexism everyday, in every aspect of their life. The degree with which it annoys and unsettles them will vary from person to person. Enjoying contributing to an internet forum where people (some of whom may be dicks/ NUTS readers, etc) type off stuff off the top of their head and press 'post reply' with that delicious easy impunity the internet gives is going to result in the feeling of being a female Sisyphus in a world full of sexist pigs.
There are men who care, and just reading this thread one can see some: guys who may be rehabilitated offenders or ones who have been long-term believers in the cause. The problem for such people is an insecurity that one can inadvertently slip into learned or established social patterns of behaviour/power dynamics, whatever you call it. I generally believe a fairly large amount of sexism is black and white- the way you conduct yourself with the women in your daily life (whether that be small or main characters) is the definition of your equality and feminist credentials, BUT when it comes to the internet the black and white-ness is often blurred by the nature of people typing without thinking, misunderstood sentences, people's desire to appear pithy, witty and cool , etc.
I'm not saying that men, through fighting to police themselves and to listen to women and undo established thought patterns or socially-learnt behaviour, suffer to the degree that women do. What I'm saying is that for anyone one who cares about this, there is no peace and security and resting on laurels that can ever be done.
I've 'lurked' a lot on these forums over the years- sometimes the brandy makes me press 'post reply' to some silliness when it shouldn't- but,er.. I think through the efforts of certain people there has been somewhat of a shift in general consciousness towards feminism. Nothing tectonic, but a distinct shift. And there are far darker corners of the interweb.
And I submit to you a guiding principle for evolution in this world: If one belongs to a group of people that are accused of being on the wrong side of a power dynamic, then you would do well to stand still, shut the f up and listen to the perceived victims of that power dynamic, internalise that and re-address your beliefs and practices having digested it. Which is not say to you are 100% wrong, maybe your 1% wrong, or maybe the people around you in your social group are often behaving wrong. But listen and reflect instead of reacting.
That kind of behaviour replicated amongst a lot of people would have us evolved several rungs up ladder from the stinky mess of a species we are now.
this thread got fucked up and now it's made my post look like a monolithic rant instead of a considered long rant.
socialist or egalitarian in your heart.
Some people may find some directions taken by people describing themselves as feminists, unfortunate, but anyone who takes that as meaning that 'equal rights pay and opportunity for women', is not important to aim for, is acting like a reactionary supremicist or classist (to some degree).
It may be that some equalising of parity in a particular area is achieved, in which case it may be more beneficial to switch focus to another area that is further from parity.
Incidentally, birmingham council, was, in recent years, compelled to equalise some women employees wages (they were mostly right at the bottom anyway) to be more in line with mens roles........the union backed this, but then manual male workers had cuts in pay scales, with an explanation that this was 'due' to having to pay women more. This naturally is 'divide an rule' in action, it is suprising how much antithesis there is toward women workers getting paid the same as men, amongst male union members.
Where do you live?
small 3 bed semi :D
do you live in birmingham?
We should arrange a Birmingham DiS meet one day. nice_squirrel, are you still living round this way?
running away on holiday, leaving our boys at home.
I think nice_squirrel left birmingham and went to bamos
I left Birmingham nine years ago, and THEN I met all the LME. I do go back and visit my friends there a fair bit though.
Gudrun Schyman is speaking at SOAS tomorrow
She is the 'talesperson' (spokesperson - though she is for all intents and purposes the party leader as most people would understand it, they don't believe in that kind of leadership structure) for the Swedish Feminist Party (aka FI! or Feministiskt Initiativ)
you should all go, she's great
She's traditional in a Christian sense and thinks women are supposed to do stuff like wash dishes/clothes and look after children, whereas men are supposed to go to work and earn most of the money.
I'm not with her on this and I'm not sure what should I say to her. Apart from that she's generally left-wing and agreeable.
it doesn't really matter. If she's happy with her arrangement that's ok, but if she tells a daughter they shouldn't work or a son that they shouldn't be doing housework, then you could discuss why you feel differently with her? I'd only say something otherwise if I thought she was miserable or being treated badly.
the issue here is that disenfranchisement happens to the entire working class - perhaps more so women in some ways - but that the struggle contains feminism as one of its revolutionary & progressive principles, while by no means excluding the voices & opinions of men
the most important fucking thing is to listen to & engage with each other without dismissing, in the above context
the british left is way too dogmatic & exclusionary in general - not talking about feminism specifically here at all
As much as I support a lot of these ideologies; I sometimes find myself annoyed by the fact that people will talk about equality in such a kind of exclusive language sometimes. Not that I think they should dumb down or anything like that; but it's as if a lot of the discourse is happening in a vacuum, preaching to the converted.
It's all really complex and that.
the aims of any citizen concerned with bettering their society should boil down to inclusivity & the development of social intelligence. the practice should not be mere point-scoring, it should be engagement. usually on DiS the outspoken feminists stay on the right side of this line IMO, but while personal experience plays a huge part in developing social consciousness, one's own experiences are only valuable to an extent. the experiences of the people, combined, must to as great a degree as possible be held in consideration.
in short: sure, safe spaces should be available for individuals with temporary needs of care & feelings of vulnerability. it would be callous not to provide them. but it should not be expected that censorship may pervade society as a whole. sincere expressions of experience & desire for self-betterment can under such circumstances be easily confused for bigotry & entitlement. there are too many privileges that all may be checked (not that we should not explore them). we have all had to confront ourselves. some to a more traumatic degree than others. empathy & acceptance are the tools of the revolution.
if we reach the point where anyone feels that their voice is unwelcome in a debate which they care passionately about, and are approaching in a sincere & questioning spirit, then the discourse is fucked up.
find that which you seek