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This sounds absolutely awful and very, very fucking messy.
Ukrainian interior minister claiming it was a surface to air missile and 295 are dead.
Anywhere reporting 'shot down'?
300 people on board apparently. Christ.
"Ukraine's Interior Minister was quoted as saying the plane had been shot down."
I was sure I heard the BBC radio newsreader saying it had been shot down, but can't find anything online confirming it.
so can't imagine she did actually say that
the reports of "shot down" seem to have come from someone inside the Ukranian Interior Minstry.
who shot it down then. Doubt they'd be so quick to say that if they thought it was them.
there've been Russian separatists on the border who've been firing at the Ukranian air force recently... presumably they're assuming it's related to that?
which is reporting it was shot down with a missile
shit shit shit fucking planes shit
it's been a pleasure knowing all of you.
except xylo obvs.
before we start busting out the global thermonuclear warfare
be a nice change of pace
tomorrow, prime minister
Because as is already well established, no-one gives a fuck about Ukraine and they'll gladly watch the place burn as long as we can still put petrol in our cars to drag our fat arses to the Bull & Last come the weekend.
Send the British army into Eastern Ukraine, which is filled with armed guerrilla groups, and where a majority of the population prefer to think of themselves as Russian? Seems like a good plan.
Then yes, as part as a wider NATO effort.
or was it likely a bizarre accident/case of mistaken identity? I'm really confused.
"Malaysia Airlines said it had lost contact with Flight MH17 from Amsterdam. "
and that someone fucked up really badly
but why would they shoot any plane out of the air
by deduction, a deliberate act. but of what? war? 'aggression'? dear christ
not be too high? I guess not.
So not exactly trained soldier who knew what they were doing or looking for if it is true
he's p dead inside but it takes all sorts
the guy that pulled the trigger on that. apologies for any upset.
given that, you wonder wtf they were doing flying anywhere near there
and surely anyone would be able to tell the difference between an airliner and a fighter jet or bomber.
Anyone with their finger on the trigger or a ground to air missile anyway.
it was flying at 10,000m
dunno how easy it is to tell the difference between a military transport plane and an airliner at that distance
So it's less likely a trigger happy militia with an RPG but wouldn't someone with that kind of weaponry check their target first?
a fighter jet had been shot down yesterday
Quite apart from the obvious hellish tragedy of this, it made me feel sick in my moputh because I thought it was gonig in th eopposite direction. My friend is travelling on that same route in reverse as she's been working in KL for the last fortnight and is coming home tonight. I don't think she flies MA though.
How awful. I am really hoping this was just a tragic accident and not, in addition to the loss of 300 lives, the event that triggered the loss of a great many more.
Due to fly the day after. Can't imagine how nerve wracking that flight was for her.
"16.42 The Ukrainian interior ministry adviser, quoted by Interfax, says there are no survivors."
Not a great year for them.
Brand will be too damaged regardless of the fact they may have done nothing wrong.
because otherwise my mind is going to go crazy with what happened and the potential implications.
Giving weapons like that to untrained rebels is like giving a toddler a sword.
This is a conspiracy theorists dream.
and I want to look at it objectively and in as unbiased a way as possible... but the Russians are the baddies... right?
Do we even know it was actually shot down yet? It's all just rumour so far isn't it?
Facts. We need to wait for facts.
WE NEED KNEE-JERK REACTIONS. WE NEED THEM NOW!
depending on who you're following, would suggest staying off twitter for a bit. fucking hell.
Matt Pearce RT'd some russian site with proper bodies strewn. Really not a fan of twitter auto-showing images for many reasons but this just topped this list. yikes.
That's a route (i.e. over Ukraine), if not the airline, that I have regularly flown on.
Idiotic mistake of a retard in a situation that should never have been allowed to have escalated and festered? Thanks for creating a semi-lawless hole on the European continent Vladimir.
it's a rebel commander claiming he's just shot down a Ukranian jet at around about the same time as the incident.
And that supposedly/allegedly the guy is a known long-standing Russian agent in Ukraine.
(which is not a certainty at this point, but appears likely), is it safe to asssume that the impasse between the Western and Eastern superpowers will be confronted swiftly?
If Russia are implicated in the downing of the jet, there's no way the US will sit on there thumbs, surely? And the States generally don't do much on the global stage without their British friends.
That the Donetsk/Russian line looks like being a complete denial of involvement/implication of the Ukraine gov't. We could have a complete shitstorm on our hands here.
but, when the dust has settled, there are these fingers that could be pointed at them:
- 1. you created the conflict by stoking up and supporting the separatists
- 2. weapons (including the kind of weaponry needed to hit a plane that high up) have supposedly been free-flowing from Russia into the Donetsk region.
- 3. the credible lead as the person whose unit/command may have authorised the shooting is Russian.
I'm getting ahead of things there, but I would imagine those are the 3 issues that could be thrown at Putin. Number 1 will not wash as that has been denied constantly already. If the link I posted is a Russian-born rebel claiming he's shot something down then... I assume there will be some serious disowning.
I imagine it won't be the Cuban missile crisis, but ...
Enough speculation. Horrible.
I guess my main question would be, what was the situation with airspace in rebel-Ukraine up to today? If military planes had been shot down recently, why would passengers jets still be using the airspace?
Regarding the access to the kind of weaponry to take down jets, there is this (unverified) report from a Russian news agency from a fortnight ago, stating that rebel forces had commandeered a military base containing missile defence systems.
Anyway, the fact that both sides are already issuing contradictory statements and counter-accusations about things does not bode well at all.
fucking fuck. fuck fuck fuck. hate
Just made the mistake of reading a Guardian comments section. Hell of a lot of conspiracy theories being thrown around. Nothing like a disaster to get the internet's popcorn flowing.
No matter how useful sites like Twitter can be at this point in time, probably best to step back from the breaking news and let the facts come to the fore in their own time.
One point I would raise in the interim though, is that rebel forces within Ukraine have not been carrying out air missions, which makes one sceptical that Ukrainian government forces would have had any need to use surface-to-air missiles.
There have been early reports that the plane was flying at a height of 6 miles, which is approximately 32,000 ft. This is within the engagement altitude of most medium range SAM systems.
"Strelkov" guy reported as claiming responsibility for the attack is apparently this guy:
Under absolutely no doubt that the plane was shot down by Russian or Russian backed guerrillas in Eastern Ukraine
He said the passenger lists won't be made public until all next-of-kin informed but he could say that 80 children were in board
He wouldn't say if any Swedes were among the passengers
Wonder what the Dutch news is saying
even if it is laughably transparent: http://rt.com/news/173672-malaysia-plane-crash-putin/
There were earlier reports that the site of the crash had been sealed off by the rebels (it's in 'their' territory), and that they were saying that they were going to send the black boxes to Russia.
They're claiming a failed assassination attempt on Putin by Ukraine ?! Amazing
But yeah - Swedish correspondent in Moscow saying black boxes are on there way there
Oddly though, Swedish correspondent in Washington reporting that a Pentagon source having analysed the footage and noted only smoke coming up from the ground (none in the air) are 'prepared to conclude' that it may have been just an accident/crash
"Kiev deployed powerful surface-to-air missile systems to E. Ukraine ahead of the Malaysian plane crash "
but :D we're all heading towards WW3!
Could equally be the point from which hostilities are forced to de-escalate
Let's hope so
Was it Mark Regev? That guy is an absolute psychopath
Think last name was Lerner? Could be mistaken, though.
Probably a coincidence but still intriguing timing.
Not sure how they know but presumably they have some high tech wizardry in the sky or maybe some NSA shit on this guy's blog
Though they are saying it's unclear where the missile was fired from
As soon as Washington say that Putin comes out with a statement blaming ' because the accident happened in Ukraine'
Legally, the salvage costs/ investigation costs are borne by the nation whose territory it crashes in.
Also, as this was a 'terrorist' incident where somebody brought the plane down from the land below, I imagine the nation state that this happened in will be involved in compensation issues.
As well as shifting pressure on Ukraine and denying any direct or indirect culpability, he's shifting what could be a significant financial pressure from Russia to a country that's already financially reeling.
Swedish Foreign minister just posted this on twitter too
Tough first few days for Phillip Hammond btw
Is there a way this can be independently confirmed? I imagine the separatist response would be that this is a set up by the sbu
I'm not trying to be a wind up bell by the way, I just want to ensure veracity.
But I can't think of any ways in which you or I could confirm it
But real or not, the fact it is published has its own significance in the drama
Personally I'm inclined to believe it - it seems to ring true
the separatist's sound quite paranoid, as their only justification for shooting the plane down seems to be that they thought it was a spy plane? Doesn't really bode well for the future.
Nationalities. Mainly Dutch. A number of Australians, Indonesians, Germans, British and (my brain seems to have forgotten the others). Schipol CEO says they are working to find out who the rest are.
A bad mix of guerilla warfare along nationalist/ethnic lines leading to basically untrained nervous people in control of very powerful war machines.
This isn't a Cold War focused on ideology or winning hearts and minds of populations, this seems more like a war about assets and PR for leaders fuelled by rampant inequality, so populations are becoming collateral. It's really fucking dangerous and sad.
What the fuck is happening today?
Rather than against the (weak) state.
They've been fighting at the airport for days with militia from Misrata fighting those from Zintan. But now those from Misrata are heading into the city centre... I'm not sure what their immediate aims are, whether it's a local tactical manoeuvre or something greater.
has it been confirmed that it was shot down?
horrible horrible stuff
no words really
all flying to the same conference. :-/
but that's unconfirmed.
That would allow for the more robust response that this deserves.
There must be no tolerance for allowing Russia to get this blamed on the Ukranian government.
It seems quite clear now that there is considerable evidence that it was shot down, that it was shot down by a vehicle-based missile launcher seen in the area on that day that had not have been obtained from the Ukranian government forces, and that for it to have been used it would have required the expertise of Russian-based operatives. The conversation that has been taped aligns with the social media boast of having shot down a plane by a known general who used to work for the Russian FSB (KGB) as late as last year.
How one unpicks direct legal accountability out of that mess is beyond me. But enough countries should club together and deliver an unprecedentedly robust response to Russia. There are enough countries directly involved in this that there must be considerable collective power.
seems pretty clear that the rebels shot down 300 civilians in an 'honest mistake' thinking it was Ukraine military
also seems pretty clear they could only do this with Russian gear and guidance
clearly they didn't intend to target civillians
oddly enough, the fact that the rebels have not just held their hands up to the mistake and engaged a ceasefire seems to strongly suggest that more than anything they are /entirely/ acting as the proxies of the Kremlin/Russian military
that the separatists had seized some of the Ukrainian army's Buk missile systems. But I might have misheard. And the one in question might have come from Russia anyway.
Ukraine are saying today that they have video footage of the rebels sneaking the BUK out of the area and back over the Russian border yesterday afternoon a couple of hours after the incident
(I searched: Newsnight ambassador Buk)
that that footage and any accompanying evidence is made public. I hope they do just like the taped conversation that was released.
There is enough potential of publicly presenting a smoking gun here (from both Ukranian and American sources), which would put Putin in a very difficult, but entirely deserving situation.
so one can imagine the great American rabid media-core will not be able to crank this up to Cold War proportions.
Literally every other paper mentioned the fact that 295 people had died on the front page before they mentioned the fact that any of them were British.
you've just missed out the rest of the front page
also, must have been a different edition? six to eight.
so first press. hendopolis and @suttonnick are good for tomorrow's first edition newspapers.
But it is an important detail, in terms of drilling home that the conflict is having a direct effect on British citizens and hopefully engaging more people with the problem. It's not the whole picture, certainly, but pretty much any news outlet is going to include a figure on how many people from its locality is affected.
rather than the relevance.
also take a quick look at some of the other papers
most of the time media outlets will tailor their output to their target audience. When the bbc were on last night just after the news conference even they emphasised the britons feared dead. Of course there are good arguments to be made about ignoring other aspects of a story, but when things are competing on the front page you have to balance them as well as fit your own editorial agenda. Think the telegraph one was fine, tbh.
Have you read the front page copy, btw? I've not, just interested what it says.
but you can read it there.
although curiously you can't zoom which is a bit of a pain
seems somewhat churlish to suggest a further change of presentation based on the evidence presented. I didn't expect information about the total casualties to be missing from the front page copy, it was just the front page image that just seemed a bit off when compared to the other British papers.
given below the fold on a broadsheet isn't really the front page from a presentation point of view.
Would have been really weird if a UK paper had headlined their 9/11 front page as "67 Brits killed in terror attack" instead of "3,000 killed in terror attack, 67 Brits feared dead" or something similar.
because it's below the fold.
Maybe WWWO just has an evil newsagent doing his own folding or, more likely, it was a printing oversight corrected in later editions.
masses of wild speculation ITT too, it's all gone a bit Syrian gas attack, let's just wait for some facts eh
the most famous incident involving a plane being shot out of the sky was still being contested and covered up years later. i can fully understand all the conjecture
But you knew that
You can't possibly know what I know
Stick to the FACTS
That's all I have to say on this matter
Covered up, but by retards. Though Russia will just surely just say Ukraine fabricated the photos and social media postings.
To not allow air crash inspectors in is incredible and appalling. It's just something that doesn't happen and is in itself a massive statement of guilt.
For Putin the most important thing is saving face, his power is dependent on carrying the nation by perceived successes and the cult of his personality which has been carefully cultivated. I don't think he can denounce the separatists or continue with the Ukraine project without compromising his own popularity in Russia or his international standing. He's in a really difficult position so I expect him to go very quiet for a long time hoping this will all blow over. He'll be counting on Europe's umming and arring on their next steps and ultimate non-decisions to buy some time for his next plan.
of publicly available data like flight radar:
Finnair lie, then get caught out
with regularity, all over the place?
" this is a direct result of Russia destabilising a sovereign state, violating its territorial integrity, backing thuggish militias, and training and arming them."
- almost all things we were at one point looking to do in Syria (though you could argue a point about the kind of weapons you supply being important - ie not giving just anyone missiles that can shoot down planes).
I'm hoping the lesson taken from this is that this is an increasingly dangerous thing for Russia and us/the US to do and that unpredictable things happen when you destroy political authority in a country. As weapons technology gets more sophisticated it becomes even more dangerous.
after you shamed me upthread?
have a word with yourself pal