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Have you ever had a heated political discussion with anyone in real life?
I'm paranoid that people I know see me as some deranged lefty with insecurities and class-based prejudices. I won't deny that's 100% who I am, but come to think of it, most of my rage is unleashed online anonymously. I feel a lot of guilt for inflicting my views on others even anonymously, but I'm not sure I've ever had the guts to argue with anyone in real life about something I feel strongly for, unless I know they agree with me in which case it's not really an argument (although I still come across as a deranged lefty, and they might secretly disagree).
which class do you hate?
all of them except for the Guardian-reading middle-class.
and the Drowned in Sound middle-class.
I'm the complete opposite.
People in the middle tend to be least affected by changes in the political climate, yet somehow always seem to think they've got the most sensible opinions on it.
I find the stubbornness of people outside the middle much more infuriating.
This makes no sense at all
I'm talking about the kind of folk
for whom small changes in a country's standard of living will neither push them into poverty or desperation, nor give them the kind of power where their decisions dictate the standard of living for the former group. It's very easy to remain politically idealistic in that situation, which I think eludes a lot of people who subscribe to that white, educated, and liberal agenda pushed by publications like The Guardian.
sean should shut this place down to stop giving them a platform
I just find it hard to take the politics of people with little to lose seriously.
Badly phrased, that
When I say little to lose, I mean those whose lifestyles aren't hugely affected by the political situation they live in, or the stance they take within it.
surely politics comes down to whether you think a view is correct or not, rather than judgements based on peoples backgrounds
Your background more often than not shapes your political view
This is Sociology 101 is it not?
maybe in terms of tendencies, on average, but it does not completely determine them, there is still variety within a group, and a battle of ideas arguing over what is the more accurate and fairest world view, that people choose. To write of views because of the person who is saying them seems a bit extreme, if you evaluate their politics and show how it reflects a self interested view based on their background then that is entirely different.
Reckon sociology 101 would be Durkheim and suicide
It's probably unfair to say self-interest is most people's guiding principle
but I do believe we're all a product of our environment. Some people born into relative comfort might take themselves out of that situation in an attempt to balance their worldview - studying politics, volunteering, etcetera - but they've got to accept that as soon as they return to that comfort, they lose a part of that. Take the folks in Westminster - they'll endlessly debate policy behind closed doors, make policy with (you'd hope) the best of intentions, but when it comes to reconciling that with the needs of the poor, or wealthy even, they often fall short, and I think the rise of hard right sentiment across Europe is a good indicator of that.
not sure I'd consider folks in Westminster middle-class though
at all.
I'm talking more about the "new money" middle-class
some of us fly way above
just having view which reflects out current or future 'position' in the rankings of society.
In fact if you were like that, (unless in the direst of straits) then that would seem to indicate a shallowness, or at least a lack of knowledge/Experiance that means you are just part of a market that is catered for by media and political campaigns
Don't care much for this assertion that some people are just above it all.
Must be a great burden being so much more right than everyone else.
so you think that to try to understand multiple plurality
of opinion and POV and the ways in which simple direct conclusions are subverted and manipulated by political parties and the media is something that should be scorned?
You feel the people should be sheep and allow their opinions/povs to be herded an graded according to media and political wants?
You think it is arrogant and elitist to want to understand why this supposedly most advanced society most 'advanced democracy' most technologically advanced, most educated society, is still really quite crap at doing things?
YOU want people to be the livestock they are
I dont.
I dont think I anywhere asserted that I was more right than everyone else.
I think that what I said was, 'some of us' try to have a wider and more varied viewpoint.....this, in theory, should make it less easy to be fooled by the VERY insiduous and endemic distraction and misweighting and illogicalities that are extant in public political debate and discussion and explanation
whose lifestyles help cause the political situations we live in.
I already understood what you thought it meant
I simply didn't think it made any sense. Are people not capable of thinking beyond how they would personally be affected by something? Are you now suggesting that people in the middle least affected encompasses people who subscribe to a 'white, educated and liberal agenda'?
What you have to remember
is this guy is relentlessly thick
Well, this was exactly the tone of the discussion around the Euro elections
Which suggests to me that a lot of people actually aren't capable of thinking beyond how they would be affected by something. Most of the patronising, disparaging comments directed towards people's genuine concerns with the way Europe works came from exactly this white, educated, liberal social strata. I'd rather listen to the people who genuinely have their livelihoods on the line. In my experience those people have much more nuanced and interesting political views.
Nah, people bothered engaging with you on UKIP
Over and over and over again
Well, the one or two that attempted to try to understand my view on that
I wouldn't lump in with the type that liked to guffaw from within their many layers of cotton wool, anyway.
No wonder you're so into your fairy tales
I fail to see how anyone should worry about engaging with you sincerely when you're making very ignorant sweeping statements about whole classes of people that seem to mainly exist in your fucking head.
Well, I seem to remember you never seemed that shy
about making the same kind of generalizations about UKIP voters around election time, which probably contributed in some small way to 30% of the voting public voting in hard-right eurosceptics for our MEPs.
I don't think UKIP voters are all one demographic
They're a small (10% at best) disparate group from different walks of life. Any generalizations I made about them were to wind you up. Which I think you know since you complained about me not engaging constructively. Yours are sincere then?
Right, but I'm not talking about a group who are from all walks of life.
I'm talking about a group who, by definition, live in relative comfort. And I stand by my opinion that it's much easier to be idealistic in your politics when you've not got outside pressures that class generally don't have shaping them.
So you're saying that the middle-classes opinions aren't driven by self-interest?
If so, you're effectively saying that the middle-classes are the only truly moral people in the country.
I mean, thanks, I guess.
I guess, in a roundabout way, I am saying that.
Unfortunately they don't tend to be in the interest of anyone else either. It's like communism - great idea, doesn't work.
Not really
Your surroundings can shape your assumptions but they never stop shaping you. So every single person is different no matter what class they come from. Those who take 'rational' political decisions are often as dogmatic as idealists so I don't buy that. I would also say some of the political figures who show utterly no lasting idealist principles have come from comfortable backgrounds (especially the current populist figures who'll flip on anything).
Well I'm getting bored and losing the argument
So, I'll take this opportunity to admit that I have, on rare occasion, met a middle class person that I have actually liked. However most of them are shit cunts and think they're all their own special snowflake who break the mold, when in reality they're all completely indistinguishable. I guess that is my main point here.
https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/6307783424/hCC8E781F/
I'll have you know I have a perfectly respectable day job as the Dungeon Master.
you are right, many people who vote do not seem to be adept about
thinking beyond how something will affect them, which makes them potential patsies for any old tripe reeled out by the media or UKIP (et al) basically they hear some rentagob blurt something out with the rentagob linking it to the thing that will worry the most people, and the poor simpletons will then just throw their vote away by giving moronic rentagobs a mandate to have political power.
THIS is the major flaw in our democracy, to the point of making it almost worthless. WHat is the point in having the people vote if the majority of the electorate are not sentient enough to understand?
It makes sense if you're completely incapable of empathy.
You don't exactly seem like you've got masses of the stuff
for people who disagree with you, either.
It's hard to imagine having no conscience.
:D ooouch
Mr BURNS
I just took that as giving up on the argument tbh.
hang on, Im not on your side of the argument here
http://blogimages.thescore.com/tbj/files/2011/07/dog-knicks.jpg
Very rarely
As it would only be against some cretin loudly announcing how awful immigration is, and I would probably just cry and run away. Online you can think about your argument and end up in a spiral of posting which never ends.
I come into contact with people like that quite often
In fact I have been at an increasing rate this year.
Yes.
It very often ends badly.
i've only ever disagreed with people spouting racist/anti immigration bollocks
talking to my dad or whatever doesn't count i guess
Too many times.
yeah all the time. life is really boring if you only hang about with folk who are exactly the same as yourself.
quite often
mostly about Scottish Independence these days though.
It's MOSTLY with people who hold the same/similar opinions as me so it doesn't really get properly heated.
if it's with someone with differing views
we have respectful in-depth conversations.
used to argue constantly with one of my friends
a lot of the time it would be political but I think it was mostly a product of spending too much time together and was because of simmering resentments over who hadn't done enough cleaning that week
rarely did either of us have a cogent argument
My old office was quite good for political banter, quite funny winding up the late 30s early 40s types by calling them Blairites. I'd normally take a contrarian stance, defend nick clegg etc. one friend often ends up with long rants debates because he believes in conspiracy theories, not sure if that quite counts as politics
Quite often not sure if it ever gets properly heated though
I used to have to in university, and now I end up debating with left & right wingers because some of the ideas I like are super weirdo. But only if someone else brings it up, I try not to start them.
Oh my yes
Not really.
Once started getting into it a bit with a naturalised American with views seemingly somewhat right of mine (unsurprising given that their politics tends to be to the right of ours in general).
Given that it was at a BBQ at my gf's friend's place, I decided discretion was the best route to take and tried to bow out relatively politely.
when it's not an acceptable place/time to discuss politics and the other person thinks they've won even though there was no argument :D
Yeah
Only with really close friends now, though.
yeah back in the day
now...nah.
loads
but people tend to run away, OR, look to any audience for support of numbers when their words fail them