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Some far right nutters have won in France. What else is going down?
but I thought it gave the thread title a bit of pizzazz.
SHAZAM! BOOM! OH YEAAAAHHHH! TAKE THAT CG
Two in three people everywhere not arsed to vote (if it's anything like previous Euro elections anyway)
in the UK.
Dunno if that's how democracy should work.
But then you talk to one and boom, nuts.
It's the inverse of people with right wing beliefs thinking people with left wing beliefs are nutters e.g. 'libtards'
Republican =/= tea party, for example
Feel free to explain why the holocaust-deniers, homophobes and friends of neo-Nazis in the Front National aren't nutters.
Or go back to your comfort zone and make up some shit about lumping imaginary money on Costa Rica to win the World Cup in the football threads.
There are some deeply insecure people on here nowadays.
which are oddly similar to a lot of the far left discourse: reduce the retirement age, extreme renationalisation...
There is the tint of racism and xenophobia, of course, but it's terrifying how close they are to things like the Front Gauche who are the last remaining eurocommunists of any real value (aside from Syriza)
undermines the nation state, unless it's broadly under the state's control. The BNP's 'policies' will be pretty much the same.
It's also why calling UKIP fascists is kinda stupid.
All socialism is linked to Marxism with its anti-national and anti-material tendencies. Although it recognizes public and private ownership, class war has to be reconciled through strong nationhood only. Rich get richer but under a flag. Rather like a certain purple party might view things.
just that they like nationalising some things etc. The end result of the nationalisation and the concept of the public good it pursues is obviously massively different.
UKIP are just plain neo-cons (or at least farage is). Don't think neo-liberalism and fascism are reconcilable tbh. But it's kind of a technical distinction and the idea that UKIP aren't fascists shouldnt be taken to mean that they're any less shit.
Suppressing worker rights and protection of corporations to keep the political elites strong (rather than unions etc challenging the strength of the nation) can be seen as very similar to free market neoliberalism. Even UKIP would probably lie about wanting to keep the NHS public for the national good.
if you simplify everything to such a level where it becomes misleading
"Everyone's a professor now". JFC.
Labour best SNP in Edinburgh by 37 votes or sutin.
6th Scottish seat in the balance. Potentially an improved Green vote rather than a pure tactical vote has nixxed the chance of keeping UKIP outta here.
But Na h-Eileanan Siar don't do shit on Sundays, so we'll have until tomoz to see what they think.
Lib Dems lolz.
BBC just said Labour are winning in Scotland. Which redefines the word word 'winning'.
It'll be a grim and pitiful sight indeed if Better Together/Westminster/Labour/Tories use a Scottish UKIP seat as the basis for cheerleading.
Sure it would be quite unstable at first, but once all the member states had become fully integrated they'd form a much stronger whole (a bit like the Megazord in Power Rangers). Nasty prejudices, which are perhaps more accepted in Eastern Europe (racism, sexism etc) would be stamped out more quickly, and it'd just be a wonderful, diverse and vibrant place. I'm right, aren't I?
The big cities are more connected to each other than they are to the rural areas of their own nations, and the countries follow broadly the same ways of life with varying degrees of liberalism.
are to the rural areas of their own nations"
Increased liberalisation/free trade creating a global culture centred in big urban cities. Networked through trade and transport links.
By my reckoning the idea of territory and the different countries looking to economic/capitalisation to get ahead is history, now we've just got a narrative of globalized social tendencies. Or something.
London, Paris, Berlin, Madrid, Milan, Brussels etc etc...
Culturally they're all much of a muchness. Same mix of people. Same type of educated inhabitant, same kind of person, with superficial differences and changes in decor. It's only when you leave the cities that you feel the actual difference of a country compared to 'Europe'
BNP did NOT beat the Fib Dims.
That's a little good news tonight at least.
Representing UK in Europe. Just Tory runoff, blokes deemed too weird even for the conservatives. The type that paint their own yellow lines outside their house and have a full breakdown if their bin isn't collected on a bank holiday
Labour are up as well.
Greens nab a seat from the Lib Dems. UKIP +0; Lab +1; Con -1.
Thing I learnt tonight: in '89 Greens were 3rd the UK (but didn't get any seats cos the system wasn't proportional).
Choose to wear a purple tie tonight!!11 fuckin ell mate! #pissupinabrewery
Liam Fox " what we have learnt tonight is that the British public are very sophisticated"
UKIP just won in the polls,mate. Think we were more sophistcated when we were daubing on the walls in cheddar gorge
Tories coming third in a national election has never happened before. Ever. Heh.
The Lib Dems have actually retained a seat.
- Doing a cry about being "marginalised by commentators".
- Banging on about a "people's army".
- Fucked it
*beats chest pridefully*
Lee, you called it a dead loss. But we are LEGION
It really is a night to cherish the small victories...
of voting for a Romanian dentist with a grudge
closing in!! să nu testoasa îngenunchează în fața iepurele
but the Pirate Party are quite a big thing in Germany, and are doing some seriously good work. worth a read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirate_Party_Germany
(Although according to the Guardian they're just about to lose them)
Impossible to treat them seriously in the UK though - their top candidate has been too busy working on her dubstep album(s): https://www.pirateparty.org.uk/blogs/editor/pirate-party-stand-euro-candidates-north-west-region
they're essentially very agreeable and their fight is valiant, even if it is against a monstrous opponent which corrupts the very turf of the battlefield at will
probably the only time my vote in an election will count for anything seeing as my constituency is militantly Conservative :(
The last one ended up in Westminster soon after...
democracy is a load of shit isn't it
Their first elected representative here on any level.
So be it. But 1st in England on ~30%, and 4th in Scotland on 10% (without winning a single council area, or ever having an MP or MSP) is hardly the stuff of a uniform political landscape. Which is what's being bleated by some Better Together/Westminster/Labour/Tories persons. A hollow celebration indeed.
No matter. Scotland "has influence as part of the UK" with a population of 5.2m and 6 MEPs. Never mind that Cyprus, Luxembourg, and Malta have 6 MEPs with a population of less than a 5m, and Denmark, Finland, and Slovakia with populations of just over 5m all get 13 MEPs.
still pretty gutted we elected one of those cunts
the rest of them are even bigger cunts, can't even be fucked raising their hand every few years
well, probably not bigger cunts than ukip voters but cunts all the same
that two thirds of the people around me haven't bothered to vote.
it must be nice to be so blithely satisfied that everything's just about as fine and dandy as it needs to be, or could ever be.
at least kippers have bothered to express their (misguided) dissatisfaction in a (vaguely, almost) constructive way.
Seem to vaguely remember Plaid doing a publicity stunt around the time of the last Euro election (which happened to coincide with a Wales v Estonia football match) where they lined up people in Wales and Estonia kits to represent the number of MEPs for each country. Estonia has considerably more, despite having half the population of Wales.
Estonia - 6 MEPs for 1.3m
Wales - 4 MEPs for 3.1m
Lithuania - 11 MEPs for 3.0m
Not brilliant, really.
More to come, inevitably.
*Cyprus (0.9m), Luxembourg (0.5m), and Malta (0.4m) have 6 MEPs with a population of less than 1m.
we fucken invented halloumi, pal. shdve been 9 or 10
Halloumi trumps all.
Labour just missed out on another seat to UKIP. Vote green get UKIP...
vote for someone you dislike to avoid someone you hate
Newer generation of voters less automatically disposed to vote Labour, dwindling faith in their competency, beaucratic image, basically capitalist policies. It's not all roses for them but they'll obviously do much better in the first past the post elections won't they, and they've done alright overall tonight
is not a legit angle in terms of anything.
Hate the game not the players.
And pity the non-players.
1st: The "people's army". JFC. Beyond that, it's not all bad...
2nd: Labour managed to achieve the worst performance by an opposition party.
3rd : Tories have come third for the first time ever in a national vote.
4th: Greens. Fourth!
5th: Lib Dems, with only half their previous vote. Fifth! Half!
everything I'm reading suggests that labour are third?
London pending but, yeah, a close call. Just trying to find negativity where I can, yo.
it's looking like an awful night for Labour. An unpopular government, the Lib Dems decimated, a massive 'protest vote' for UKIP which was assumed would hurt the Tories further... And yet still only neck and neck with them a year out from the General Election.
It's looking really depressing for next year.
Since when have people used European election results as a useful indication of general elections?
UKIP in the 2009 EU elections got 16.5% of the vote (on a 34.7% turnout) and in the 2010 general election, less than 3% of the vote (on a 65.1% turnout). Labour's share of the popular vote almost doubled in the general election compared to the euro elections a year before.
Not sure if you've seen the most recent polling in key marginals either http://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/2014/may/24/george-osbornes-speech-at-conservativehome-conference-politics-live-blog
Labour were in government in 2009 and took a kicking before their vote came back for the general election. That's the usual pattern for any European or local election immediately prior to a GE.
^ Labour lagging significantly behind the Tories in 1999 and not long after that they won a second landslide.
You could argue that the elections are people "punishing" the government and that the tory vote will come back (I don't think that's a good analysis for what's happened to the tories here) but the tories are in third. these election results are unprecedented and I don't think any party can be confident at this stage. but this doesn't signal disaster for labour either, as you seemed to be suggesting.
Parties in power typically get hit by a protest vote in Euro and local elections before their vote comes back for a GE, that was my point. Even allowing for the UKIP factor, that didn't seem to happen last night to the Tories to the same magnitude as many would have predicted and that's a surprise.
I don't think last night "signals disaster" at all in the sense that it means Labour can't or won't win an outright majority next year, but I also don't think it's controversial to say strategists inside the party would have been wanting and expecting a much better showing. I suspect a year ago they'd have been targeting 30%+ and a significant lead over the Tories.
I wonder if, with all the focus on UKIP, an unexamined factor here is actually the coalition, which is all but unprecedented in anyone's lifetime. It's possible that the Lib Dems have been the fall guys for "the government" in a way the Tories might usually have been a year before a GE. The Royal Mail sell-off being a good example: terrible decision, personal friends of the cabinet profit and yet Vince Cable takes all the flak.
This has essentially been a Tory government, apart from things like raising the income tax threshold and the pupil premium.
I suspect that in 2010 there were actually very few voters who crossed from Labour to the Tories - most of the drop was in people crossing to the Lib Dems. The Conservative support seem to be pretty solid on the left hand side - it's the right where they're seeing support ebb away.
I still think that it's a bit silly to put too much stock in these results as a pointer towards what will happen at the General Election, but yes, Labour would have expected to being doing better than they are now.
Alright Nick Robinson
Confirmed. With a Green retained and the Lib Dem booted out.
guess that london result puts labour in second after all
the Lib Dems have only 'won' 4 areas across the whole of the UK - one being Shetland and another Gibraltar. Ouch.
enjoyed watching danny alexander failing to explain why they weren't a useless bunch of cunts
2009: BNP // 943,598 // 6.3%
2014: Liberal Democrat // 995,642 // 6.84%
well that's that. I'm going to bed.
we should all be ashamed of ourselves.
specifically? it seems fine. like a big comforting glove
are completely out of your hands
has a lot to answer for.
chances are that they won't be able to replicate this sort of momentum again and they've wasted it on an election that can't help them achieve their end goal. if they hadn't overexposed themselves in the run up to this vote they would've made modest (but significant) gains, putting themselves in a good position to build a surge in the run up to the GE, maybe become kingmakers and be able to force a referendum, idk
Sadly that's appealed to a lot of people. Had they instead treated them as a credible party, whether they are or not, and concentrated on their policies more they'd have been really quite easy to discredit. People have got what they deserve i'm afraid.
The demonisation of them has played right into their hands.
No one who votes or voted UKIP did so because of what the Guardian said - they'd never have even looked at the paper. UKIP have gained popularity because of increased, unchallenged, exposure in mainstream media and the majority of the press pushing an anti-Europe, anti-immigration agenda for years.
I agree that if you start to focus on UKIP's policies they all fall apart, but that still wouldn't have stopped them garnering votes - the only way the UKIP vote will be reduced is for either the Conservatives to move (even more) rightwards and/or scare Kippers into believing that a vote for UKIP could let Labour in at the General Election.
When we see a full breakdown, I would guess that we'll see that about 90% of all UKIP supporters voted in the European elections, which would see them maxing out at around 9% of the electorate, and I do think that at least half of those will return back to the Tory fold at the General Election, what with the effect of the Europeans effectively being a mid-term election and an opportunity for a protest vote being removed.
The key, I think, is for those on the left, and other progressive parties is to challenge UKIP's policies, but more importantly, rather than fixate on this 9% rump, to concentrate on the 57% of the electorate who didn't vote at all. Engage those people and the impact of UKIP is nullified.
it will be that people realise how big a problem voter apathy can be, and lay-people in the centre of the political spectrum who became disenfranchised by big-3 politics might get out and vote
Don't massively care if it's progressive parties, either. Just want a more engaged electorate cos I think that'd be a positive thing in ways that extend beyond electoral results.
Do grown adults really use the term 'lefties'?
As for 'painting them out as a racist party' not nearly enough was done in this area. Every party leader was so hesitant to call out the blatant bigotry for what it was.
most of us sensible folk use the term the loony left
Mid-term, Proportional Rrepresentation-based, European elections in particular, are the best, perhaps only, opportunity for a 'fringe' party to make an impact.
The only way that they'll be kingmakers at a General Election is by disproportionately taking more of the Tory vote than the Labour one in a few key marginals, allowing Labour to win seats.
this is what people deserve when they don't vote.
If people didn't vote because they think all the parties are a #bunchoftwats it doesn't mean it's their fault all the daft racists voted UKIP/they're not 'doing their duty' or whatever
yes it does
Just feels like it'd take a war on their doorstep for some people to give the slightest shit about, well... anything vaguely "Political", really.
Here's the thing: SO MANY people say 'I don't do politics', or whatever. But they'll happily give you their opinion on this, that, or the other. Even if it's only some really low level stuff. There are very few true nihilists out there.
So they're either lazy fuckers. Possible, in many cases.
Or maybe they're a special snowflake who is precious about needing a party to match them 100% on everything. There are a few of them about, too.
Or they think that it doesn't make a difference who you vote for. Which is another way of saying 'democracy in its current format is broken'.
UKIP have obviously tapped into a good chunk of that demographic. It's up to non-kippers to awaken a sense of value in voting in the rest of the shoulder shruggers. Not easy for anyone who wants to remain even vaguely moderate, which the top-tier parties obviously do.
Still don't believe in compulsory voting though. That'd mask the clearly apparent problem.
I mean, UKIP managed to get someone elected at a €€€€€ MEP level by legitimately mobilising only 3% of the electorate. BBC-assisted, sure, but surely not the hardest thing in the world to counter-act? And yet...
absolutely every major party in the centre and to the left of it are total plums who abandoned their supporters in favour of third way liberal horse dong and it's their fault entirely
but that's an aside.
if you'd bothered to read what i've written, rather than lather up in a frenzy at the chance to drop the word liberal into a reply for no reason whatsoever, you'd understand that i'm massively laying this one down at the doors of parties who haven't managed to engage the electorate (i.e. pretty much all of them apart from ukip)
enough, maybe, to not really be significant.
i wasn't trying to ruck either way, it just seemed like the best place to steam into the conversation
and also, 'victim blaming' is a phrase with connotations i don't feel it's appropriate to evoke in a discussion about putting pencil to paper.
it's also complete bullshit to try and shame people into 'expressing consent' wrt liberal democracy. Make voting compulsory if you want but telling people theyre pricks if they don't buy into a liberal democratic system that enables a sort of power that more than likely doesnt give a shit about them, and completely neglects their interests is a very strange thing for someone nominally on the left to do.
just ended up sounding like that. Loads of people have been doing it though and its got on my nerves
the one above's much better though, yeah
"if you don't vote this is what happens" stuff. one fleeting moment of participation every couple of years is not enough. democracy is so naff.
which has an impact for the next half a decade.
I was only stabbing him for one fleeting moment!
I only dropped a brick off the motorway bridge for one fleeting moment!
it's mostly coming from wealthy white comedians on twitter, not your fault
and your enemy's friend doesn't have to be your friend. or something.
kinda feels like i've had a funny turn and am channelling xylo, here.
all this "if you don't vote this is what happens" stuff
not really sure what your point is? you're not bothered that ukip got such a large share of the vote?
that if the turnout was, say 80%, UKIP would have less seats. Is this based on research i havent seen or are people just making stuff up?
but it's already pretty established that the UKIP vote turned out, whereas the other parties' votes stayed at home.
As mentioned upthread, you'll probably see that around 90% of all UKIP supporters or with sympathies towards UKIP actually voted. The figure is likely to be below 30% for the three main parties.
by voting against ukip. also the idea that participation in a system you dislike is somehow your moral duty regardless. ftr i have always voted in the past and only couldn't this time for personal reasons, but it's still an attitude that riles me.
I actually find the opposite more annoying; the people that complain about "the system" but don't bother doing anything about it.
it's alright, has some flaws though dunnit.
due to some kind of fuck up on the electoral register that I'm not sure if it was my fault or not (it probably was)
.... I dunno
UKIP - 28% (think I was bang on with this. 23 seats will please every UKIPer. Could have almost reached 30% if it wasn't for An Independence from Europe)
Labour - 25% (down slightly on what I prediected, but 20 seats is a good haul. The devil for Labour will be in the detail.)
Conservatives - 24% (19 seats is a pretty good night for the Tories. I expected them to be down at 21% and struggling to get to 20.)
Greens - 8% (predicted this spot on I think. An third seat is a good boost and they'll be pleased to beat the Lib Dems)
Lib Dems - 7% (lucky to avoid wipeout - only a few thousand more Tory votes in the SE would have done so. Nothing to smile about there. Suffering for rolling over too many times in government.)
Others - SNP will probably be disappointed to fail to get another seat, but otherwise much as expected. Good to see a BNP wipeout at least.
Lack of paying attention to the public that UKIP have any traction at all. I really don't think most people want to vote for a hard-right party, especially not Labour voters, and especially not for a bunch of dubious incompetents like UKIP.
You have to think that most of these UKIP votes are protest votes (and also, it's European elections, who gives a fuck really) and voters will largely revert to type for the next GE. Saying that, UKIP could well replace the Libs as the "third" party for the next GE, in which case, god help us.
Doesn't have a fucking scooby. It's like this:
Good post that.
and don't show up to any committee meetings etc.
(this is still pretty awful cause it means less people to argue for the positive change that the EU desperately needs).
I am pleased with a good few of the results.
- Nick Griffin's career being over and the first British Asian MEP being elected in his region.
- Greens did well in a few places. Pretty gutted that Maggie Chapman didn't get elected in Scotland though. I don't understand why people vote SNP instead of Green... but then I'm not pro-independence so idk. It's a shame about their narrow miss in North West but I think it kinda demonstrates how imperfect the electoral system is.
- some good trade unionist labour MEPs. Jude Kirton-Darling is great (NE) Julie Ward seems good (NW).
- and obviously London
(PS London thanks you)
could be incorrect
Feels like a massive move in the wrong direction
UKIP have scooped up BNP voters, picked up some disaffected Tory voters and some of the anti-politics Lib Dem vote.
Basically, crazy voters finally coalesce round one party. No real shift in the electorate.
has just told BBC Sheffield that as an MEP, he doesn't intend on ever attending EU's Parliament.
to illustrate that UKIP aren't a xenophobic party
That... doesn't quite hold up to scrutiny. If you consider that they got less seats, they obviously had less votes overall, so therefore MORE votes went to each seat. If you get 6 million votes and with 40 seats the party with 2 million and 10 seats will have more votes per seat but less total voters, which is why they lost. Doesn't quite scan right.