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I can't see why they shouldn't be allowed it
But yes because of the type of people it will annoy.
i've never had a period so i haven't got much else to offer in this exciting debate.
i'll let the chicks decide
maybe not, bit of can of worms innit
what if i am a naturally sickly person, should i get more allowed time off due to my genetic sickliness ?
think i'm going to park myself in the 'don't really care' zone of teh discussion
If you're sick, you shouldn't have to work.
But I'd take it further and say no-one should have to work whenever they don't want to.
To hell with business. To hell with it all.
then you will get more time off, at first anyway. you wll be asked to accont to HR for it eventually and they will have to try to make reaonsable adjustnebts to help you. but ultimately they will probably get rid of you if they think they can find somebody with your skillset who can do the job and turn up for it more often.
the problem with period suff is that it is entirely systemic and unavoidable during our reproductive years and it's kuck of thew draw- I guess you could say that about a great many illnesses, but period stuff affects EVERY woman at some point in her life. It's a wholesale issue. I think employers should be more undertsanding because the nebeifts of having women in industry/ the workplace far outwiegh any small adjustments that would need to be made.
i'm back on board with it now
i didn't really know about what generally happens if you are a big sicko as i have a pretty exceptional constitution
so yeah, go for it
I've gone home from work loads of times because of horrendous period pain that no over-the-counter pain killers can deal with. In fact most months when it happens there'll be a period of 2-3 hours where I'll stare blankly at the screen waiting for it to pass.
Not sure I give a shit about having the time off tbh, apart from the pain which only happens the first day, now that I've not a MOONCUP it doesn't really have any kind of negative effect on my life.
Pray for me, guys.
This was deffo because we saw each other at the weekend, right?
I am very lucky in that I am fine when I have my period, but some women suffer from awful periods because of conditions like endometriosis.
I am however NOT FINE maybe once every 3 or 4 months just before my period and I am tearful and a bit volatile, and I definitely should not be making multio million pound type decisoins at work. It would be great if i was actually able to say this to my team, maybe three times a year- look, can you neogtiate this one for me please, because i need to sit in a dimly lit room listening to power ballds, eating cold pizza and hugging my teddy for 24 hours.
of what women with PMT do, but it is honestly quite correct for me. I am a CARB HOOVER, and it is the only time I crave cholcate properly. In fact, a major chocolate craving is teh first sign tat it's going to be a month where I don't get away lightly with the pmt. Thanks to finding a pill that works well for me though, I am SO much better than I used to be, when I used to want to kill everything including myself for about 5 days each month.
prove that they have not been through the menopause. Then, thereafter, they should have to wear a red armband with a black line round it to show that they are no longer capable or perioding and therefore can't hoodwink the company into getting free time off.
In fact I think I am going to suggest this to our HR(T) dept.
that means you are less able to do your job then yeah. But do it case-by-case, rather than every woman having time off every month surely?
now this? WHEN WILL IT END!?!
(yes of course they should, if you're too unwell to work, you're too unwell to work. next)
with a few caveats about seeking medical advice on minimising the impact, forward planning of workload and if the effects do limit the ability of someone to do their job etc, sure.
If I had something like relapsing and remitting MS I'd expect something similar. Not sure that this is all that different, tbh.
Whilst suffering the most immense lower back pains, almost feeling like you can't walk properly.
No, definitely women shouldn't have any time off.
loads of years back, I'd taken some kids to the seaside on the Isle of Wight and had let them have some free time for a bit. So glad I'd managed to get rid of them when my period pain hit. The pain was so bad I had to lie down on a public bench for 2 hours while members of the public asked if I was okay. So so shit.
There was also the time I was working in Cineworld and it hit me again. I asked to go home because I was feeling ill and they just said NO WE'RE SHORT STAFFED. I explained I had really bad period pains and my manager didn't give a shit. Looking back, no idea why I didn't just walk out. Awful.
good luck with that sister.
it's only temporary
need to keep on top of that.
and be used as a weapon against them, so probably no.
But it would depend on how it was handled and policed. If you are genuinely debilitaed now and again then- regardless of cause- you should be able to take time off for it, and I think employers should be much more understanding about reproductive health issues.
instead of phrasing it as 'women get period time off' it should just be 'people get excruciating pain time off' and then there's surely no issue.
just stop employing women all together, problem solved
If that bollocks about menstrual cycles converging is true, you get to have #ladsweek in the office once a month. Which would be Superbants from the planet Shabs.
for calling in sick semi-regularly in most workplaces then?
I mean if I was managing a team and a female member of staff called in sick for menstrual reasons for a couple of days every other month or so I'd consider that perfectly legitimate grounds for not coming in. Not sure what the HR juggernaut breathing down my neck would make of it though.
But I still find it all embarrassing. Especially working with mainly men.
Whereas if there was some kind of nod from the medical professon/ government which accepts it is a common and legitimate reason to either work form home or come in but be a bit useless, then that would make the lives of a lot of women a hell of a lot easier.
with a female staff member/colleague working from home on account of period pain. Absolutely none. Sounds like it's something that needs to be legitimised in HR culture and to filter down through organisations.
So is it a wider issue regarding male-dominated workplace culture?
As in – if your office was staffed more predominantly by understanding women, would you feel more comfortable in using the usual sickness procedure in order to deal with feeling unwell as a result of menstrual issues? And would it make the need for the adjustments given in the OP obsolete?
and she is really great. and she suffers fomr bad periods herself (we've been god friends for ten years so we know rather a lot about each other.) however, she strugles into work when she feels like shit. And unfortunately, while my boss is amazingly supportive and I am NOT saying she is this type of woman, there is a kind of reluctance to show 'weakness' in front of other womena s much as in fornt of men. I kind of feel that if she can manage to come in and still bust baws in the boardroom, then I should be doing the same. And if I am thinking that, won't she think it. women are not always necessarily each others' best allies.
Anyway, what I'm getting from all this with regards to the OP is that most women already do have access to paid leave (sickness leave) for menstrual issues - there's just many barriers in the workplace prohibiting them from using it.
I wonder what can be done about that at a HR level. Certainly seems that the benefits to employers of being more flexible around the issue are incredibly self-evident...
My wife is a lawyer in a big corporate. She always struggles into work no matter how ill or rotten she is feeling. This is part of the culture in her firm (and probably other corporates as well)
Also, working with other woman in a male dominated field like law isn't necessarily a good thing like you say. The number of times my wife gets screwed over by female colleagues is more than you would think, particularly as we have two small children
i have no knowledge of this at all - but when is period pain or something not as legitimate a reason as anything else?
modern working culture where taking any time off, regardless of the reason, is scrutinized for it's potential impact to company profits.
Seems we're a long way from Maynard Keynes 15 hour working week...
who don't track or record employee leave and leave it up to employees how much time they take off and when? Think they made a big deal about doing it...
I'm willing to bet to employees at those companies take off less time than enployees at companies with set holiday allowances.
you're probably `the sort of person` who's highly motivated in their job and probably enjoy spending more time in work than out of it.
Not sure if they'd take less time off but certainly there's be other stuff in the pervasive Google/NetFlix `HIGH POWERED TEAM` organisational culture that offset having to have holiday signed off.
and you're going for another job and the reference asks how many you've had the new employer might hold it against you
Most employers don't really give a shit about this sort of stuff after they've offered you a job (esp. if it can be explained).
Bit unfair on housewives innit? Or Stay-at-home mums or slackers or The Unambitious or whatever you want to call them. Where's THEIR special blob time off, huh? Huh?
requires the revolt of the underclass (the proletariat) and, in a temporary dictatorship, their seizure of the means of production, so to assure the elimination of sexual classes requires the revolt of the underclass (women) and the seizure of control of reproduction: not only the full restoration to women of ownership of their own bodies, but also their (temporary) seizure of control of human fertility - the new population biology as well as all the social institutions of child-bearing and child-rearing.
And just as the end goal of socialist revolution was not only the elimination of the economic class privilege but of the economic class distinction itself, so the end goal of feminist revolution must be, unlike that of the first feminist movement, not just the elimination of male privilege but of the sex distinction itself: genital differences between human beings would no longer matter culturally.
Her ideas on how gender inequality has been perpetuated by millennia of patriarchal social structures imposed upon women due to biological differences is very relevant indeed: https://www.marxists.org/subject/women/authors/firestone-shulamith/dialectic-sex.htm
being more aware of the health needs of their staff. I.e. should people with depression have time off when they have bad days and are just staring at the screen not being productive? (Yes).
What about temp/contractor staff who don't have sick pay apart from statitory which is need a doctors note for and I bet you wouldn't get one for period pains? How would they get the same fair time off?
employer's being more aware of the health needs of their staff generally. Whatever that need may be.
it's kind of what i was trying to get at upthread
don't suffer (some more than others, granted) at least one day per month from something that might prevent them from doing their job properly.
And to address moker's concern above, there IS a risk that if there was a 'period days off' polcy, that this would have the practical effect of being an anti-feminisit policy. It needs ot be framed differntly, to accept that the reporductive health of a workforce is important, and that while a period is not an illness, to fail to recognise and help with the detrimental effects it can have to the physical and mental health of those who suffer it is really negligent.
i agree with that and the concept of the thread completely.
Was just then thinking about other reasons that effect workers producitvity that aren't acknowledged in the workplace and thinking there needs to be general wider understanding that there are other reasons to be off work than being snotty, puking up and pooing yourself.
with my PMT I would worry far more about the health and well being of my fellow work colleagues than myself.
in heavily female dominated work sectors such as nursing would be difficult I imagine....
tbh. Also, there are plenty of male nurses nowadays.
Let's be honest, men don't know jack shit about periods and being a woman. Regardless of how many Guardian articles you read.
Sure, they won;t ave have a period themselves, but anyboidy with empathy can imagine what it must be like. and if you've ever had a girlfriend or wife, sister or mother, then chances are as a man you've witnessed the suffering to some degree.
You're just a nicer, more democratic person than me PO :)
and haven't been hit in the balls
but can understand how much that hurts
and use it to my advantage
Anyway, it was a joke about Guardianistas' attitudes more than anything else. the sun is shining. Lighten up
UKIP don't believe in workers rights though do they
Or women's rights. Or women in general.
So he's bound to say something like that ;)
but I'd still give my staff time off to deal with them if they were debilitatingly struck down by them.
Not sure what your point is tbh.
attempting to be actively supportive of your struggles with regards to this issue. I personally am trying to engage in conversation with other women about it because it's not something I'd really considered before/know much about. In my next job, I'd like to be the manager of a team and if it's got women in it I'd like to be as supportive of them as I can be.
I'm just trying to understand the issue by way of self-improvement. I can stop engaging with the arguments and go back to unlearned prejudice on the matter though if you'd prefer...
Sorry if I appear condescending though. It certainly isn't my intention.
Still feel that my interpretation of how men are interacting in this thread is more accurate than yours mind. But maybe you've got other reasons for thinking that. I dunno.
That thread did not go well for him.
where I'm doubled over with cramps and almost being sick from the pain.
HOWEVER, I have never called in sick because of my period pains. Its usually a shit day where I am in a lot of pain, so much that I usually don't eat because I feel that rough. But I can get through it.
I don't know why but I just don't feel its justified. Its not stopping me from doing my job. I'm not infecting anyone. I'm just in discomfort.
I'll take some
BUT do I have to stay in bed? what happens if i'm caught at the shops on my period day?
meow - is this a reaction you have for period pains, or is it generally how you deal with being ill?
like, would you go in if you had a similar level of pain through a migraine or toothache or something?
because it affects my vision quite a lot and usually induces vomitting so wouldn't be appropriate and definitely would stop me doing my job so a bit pointless.
But yeah, its probably just my work ethic. I HATE taking sick days. Hardly ever do unless I am seriously, seriously unwell and will give it to someone else.
Now let's talk about something more fun.
Episode 8. Bit of a slow burn - except for the zombie! and your boyfriend fucking up one of his tribe for disobeying his missus.
if a blokes missus is away for any period of time he's allowed time off for masturbation fatigue or overindulgence of takeaways or sore thumbs from gaming.
It should be easier to say to your boss and colleagues that you're not feeling well. I get really really bad period pains and sometimes have to go lie down for a few hours wriggle about in agony. Then I need to sleep. Somehow this has never actually interfered with my working life cause my cycle seems to have adapted to mean it comes on at night or cery early in the morning. so i go into work or whatever feeling shit and really badly slept but I'm sill able to work. I can't really describe how awful it is sometimes. Also accompanied by a headache and nausea. It's like havig a migraine but also someone taking a cheese grater to your insides. But yeah I reckon I won't ever need like a WHOLE DAY OFF WORK cause of it but maybe a couple of hours siting alone in the staff room doubled over. whenever I've had to interact with other people during a really bad bout I've fainted or had to excuse myself anyway.
I had to be helped out of the debating chamber and the president of Malawi was there and it was so embarrassing.
Cat-race adjudication required
there are times when I can last 7 days and the first two days I just want to die. But, that being said, I've been having them since I was 12, I managed through school when you're dealing with hormones etc...I'm a grown-up, if I am not feeling well at all I won't go into work and just take a sick day, some months I'm not so bad, all in all I think women have coped with far worse and I wouldn't want to rock the already sexist boat where we are still paid less and possibly overlooked for promotions because of the fact that we have the potential to fall pregnant and miss days of work so I would rather forgo additional exceptions of time off work for my period to prevent any further excuses for why I won't get paid what I deserve or why I didn't get promoted over some man. Also, I think all women can agree that we can cope with periods better than some men who can't cope with a simple cold.
or to tell other women how they should deal with illness and struggle for better working conditions. if I felt too unwell, I'd call in sick for a shift cause of period pains. I get where you're coming from but I'm sceptical of any approach which aims not to "rock the boat". The masters house will not be dismantled using the master's tool.
I think that tongue was firmly in cheek and the point was about how men are big babies when they get a cold.
And look, lets get real for a minute here you're more than welcome to rally behind a ridiculous notion that I should be allowed special treatment for having a period. And yes before you start harping on that for some it's debilitating etc... I am in no way trivilising that, but we live in a world where just the mere fact that I can reproduce and there is a potential I will be away from the office if I choose to have a baby means I get paid less or am not promoted. Simple fact. My point isn't that we shouldn't be rocking the boat and standing up for our rights, my point is we should be smart about it, stand behind something that isn't going to add fuel to the fire for 'the master' to use an excuse to go a step back in progression. For someone who is so pro sisterhood you do seem to attack the women on here an awful lot. Feels like you need to possible start fighting for us and not against us?
this is obviously lost on me. Perhaps if you describe it?
The idea of 'man-flu' might be a bit exaggerated, but on the whole, men's colds last a shorter time but the symptoms are more severe.
(I'm not even going to bother with those last too sentences - no rights were won by Uncle Toms)
I always felt like you didn't like women very much at all
as he brought his gallant horse ' Mr Carrots' around for another pass.
is that meant to be you?
Is xylopwn - THE xylopwn - accusing someone else of being a thin-skinned butthurt White Knight? What year is this?
I don't white knight, generally. I mean I would if it pissed you off. But generally I just cry.
All people are saying is that if it's genuinely debilitating, then you should be able to look after yourself in a way that you would feel no shame in doing were the pain or mental health issue caused by something different. that we should not be embearrassed about saying, I am suffering from fits of incoherent rage and agonising spasms which mean I will not be fit to be in the office fthis morning/ afternoon/ day, and I expect to be fully fine for work again tomorrow. *If* you feel like you need that time off- nobody is making you.
I normally applaud your 'No Nonsesne' approach, but some of what you are saying is actual *Nonsense* and even though I know where you're coming from, it read a bit like 'pull your socks up ladies'. Not awfully helpful to those who are not as lucky as you in their symptoms and/or their ability to cope.
That wasn't my intention. I know what it's like to have a bad period, I always get a migraine on the first day and I have often sat through it at my desk trying to stare at a screen through squinted eyes. I think my point (which came across a bit agressive) was more in line with women already have so much to fight for in the office environment - there's a law that's currently being reviewed in Arizona which if passed will allow employers to fire a woman if they find out she's on birth control. And this is 2014. That if something like this (as in period sick days) were introduced it could just enforce in an employer's mind that hiring a woman is more risk due to them being allowed more time away from the office - obviously this is an extreme, but things like this do happen. It's unfortunate, but it does. I would love to be able to take a sick day for my actual period pains as opposed to making up another illness - like 'stomach problems'. I don't know if I'm making much sense.
and i understand where you're coming from. but I think DD makes good points too, in that none of us can speak for 'all women'.
Also, thankfully we don't live and work in Arizona, and it is illegal to discriminate againstwomenon the grounds of their gender in this country like they do in that ridiculous state. so whilst there may be an insidious subconscious effect in the minds of employers (which is something we must try to prevent by EDUCATION), if they actually act on their prejudice then they will be just as guilty as if they had based their prejudice on the fact that only women can give birth to children. the fact *is* that only women have periods and can have babies, and as such we ARE a special case. Society should adapt to make it easier for us to have an equal place within the workforce notwithstanding the fact that biologically, we are the ones who need some time off to push babies out if that is something we choose to do.
I don't think we should be too apologetic about that either. i didn't ask to be born with a vagina.
As it stands under current employment law for permanent employees,(and as nice squirrel makes the good point) you should be able to take sick time off for any period-related illness which means you are not fit for work anyway. the problem however lies in the attitudes of so many people (many of them women who have light periods and assume everybody else is just weak or 'at it') who do not consider period related health grief to be worthy of a half day or whatever. and therefore the woman has to make justifications to her boss/ HR people about a highly personal issue, in order to be able to convince people that, Yes, you were going to batter someone if anybody made eye contact with you today/ couldn't get out of bed/ whatever.
And finally, as I said in one of my earliest posts on the subject, ANY regular time off with a health condition- period related or otherwise- will flag you on your HR person's radar eventually, regardless of what it is. What we should be looking at is how these issues are dealt with- without making people feel worse than they already do, or ashamed or demonising.
(FWIW, I've never had a day off for period related misery, with one slight exceptoin which was ENTIRELY my own fault, and I confessed to and took as a holiday, where I got so upset with PMT and decided I'd feel better if I got really devastatingly drunk (which I did quickly, being a total lightweight when I am due my period) and I spent all of the next (working) day with my head down the loo. Eeep.)
Pretty sure I don't attack women on here in any significant way (men, sure). Who are you even talking about? Actually make a point of holding back from "attacking" other women on here most of the time. Eg There was a thread a couple of weeks ago by another woman on here singling me out with loads of sexist crap. I didn't even bother with it cause it was so ridiculous and I didn't think it was a serious discussion. Honestly interested to here some examples of me "attacking" women on here.
Sorry but you made a point which I thought was pretty much talking over the grievances that lots of women have with their employers. you were telling them not to raise the issue because, in your opinion, as someone who can deal with period pains ok, it isn't worth the fight. You were also suggesting that women who do raise this as an issue are harming your struggle for equal rights. I disagree with your approach and attitude and Im not gonna keep that quiet just cause you're a woman.
I apologise genuinely if you felt "attacked" by my comment there but I honestly don't think it was particularly aggressive or personal (i said i got where you were coming from). These are debates that need to be had openly and it is challenging. Everyone's not gonna agree all of the time of course but I would argue its really important that we're able to constructively challenge each other. I don't really understand your rationale if you think I shouldn't have responded to your post despite strongly disagreeing with it.
It made sense in my head, but I don't think I articulated it very well. It wasn't being against the idea, it was more a case of how it would be used as an additional excuse by employers to pay women less or to overlook them for promotions.
encouraging anyone to 'cope with' a simple cold if that involves coming into work? Stoicism isn't a virtue when it leads to everyone else swimming in your germ-infested sneeze jizz
Nobody would take advantage.
also, as stated in the article above most women opted not to claim it anyway.
that'll learn 'em.
Take what you will. Fucking litres. God bless the Pill.
Cause it's all fine. Never had pain or anything. Eat a bit more for a couple days.
The general public would have to understand and deal with less productivity and longer waiting times with poorer service from those covering. I couldn't give a toss, but someone has to pick up the slack somewhere don't they?
if you do go in anyway it works out the same
Go home, whatevs.
but sometimes I worry that I could ruin my life during particularly bad bouts of PMS
magnesium, B vitamins, starflower oil. 5htp helped me get over a particularly bad bout of it. Now I mostly control it with the pill, but even that is not an exact science and there is still a hormonal dip nefore the withdrawal bleed that can make me very needy and a bit tearful. the excat opposite of how i am the rest of the month/ year, which is quite alarming for those around me.
it would honestly be better if for a coupe of days a year I wasn't allowed anywhere near the office. I've made bad decisoins because of the nager and desplate sadness that I feel when I have a really really bad one. As I say- we're taking maybe one cycle in 4, and I would make up the time elsewhere.
I think precisely *because* we all feel it differently, this is why it's harder to police.
And no woman should ever assume that just because she doesn't need to take to her bed because of physical or mental (potentially suicidal) symptoms, then that means that other women get off so lightly.
for this reason, as I said,any kind of concession would need to be dealt with on a symptom by symptom basis and eal with the effects, not the mere fact that it's rag week, woohoo, let's watch lots of netflix with a hot water bottle.
The stress of being means tested would make it pointless. If it does come into practice though, how many people are going to take the reason "I'll get back to you in three days, shes on the blob so cant find out". No-one will take that as a valid reason.
Take days off if you don't feel like it. All the women here go home for the most spurious of reasons and it seems to work ok.
I just had a lovely typo-induced image of calling your anger the 'naga', thus conjuring up associations with serpent deities and the naga jolokia, that source of searing capsaicin-related pain
menstrual cycle to work scheme
it could be a working-from-home allowance that was brought in. Kind of meets in the middle then a bit?
close the thread.
shop workers work from home. Nurses from home. Teachers from home.
Not everyone is a laptop worker, chump.
How about this:
1) people just get the time off, and do no work, putting pressure on themselves while feeling weird about taking the time off (as many women have said upthread). OR
2) people can work from home and do *whatever work is possible*. Thus allowing them to feel less weird and get something done at the same time.
mic drop gif or something
When I say nice I actually mean SHIT!
Think you'd better ask their unions about that you fucking monster.
could separate some bags at home.
fucking hell Balonz Windsor try relating to the common man/woman.
it's saying you'd be entitled to three days leave for it a year. Everyone in my office is entitled to six weeks sick pay a year, but it doesn't just mean you can go 'oh yeah I'm sick again' to get your full allowance. Most people take under a week a year - depends what you get sick with.
I've only started getting period pains recently and if they got very bad I'd be confident that I'd be allowed to take time off sick with it. I'd always assumed that would be a legitimate reason to take a sick day anyway! Dividing certain symptoms of feeling ill into ACTUAL SICK/STUPID LADY PROBLEMS doesn't seem the best idea to me, I think the ideal thing would be to make people aware that period pains are a legitimate reason to take a sick day, and have legislation protecting workers whose bosses don't agree. Doesn't this exist already? It feels like it should.
this was was a troll thread.
so good good work!
anyone who isn't a white collar worker. You are like a modern day Roger Cook or something.
xclown - hang your head in shame
I would put a conservative estimate of 100 more sick days a year
nobodies doing anything anyway
We have to pay for tampons and towels.
we will have free mooncups for all.
Though it wouldn't help with men being disciminated against in the workplace when it comes to sickdays. If you're male you're almost expected never to be ill, or if you are ill it's automatically assumed you're overplaying your symptoms. I'd be laughed out of the office if i took a day off due to, say, a cold, headache, nausea or a bad stomach, but female colleagues are allowed to go home if they've got the sniffles or just feel a bit tired. Positive discrimination i'm afraid, either we want equality or we don't.
To sum up, yes, if people are ill it's unreasonable to expect them to work.