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What side of the fence are you on? Personally I'm against it.
can you at it with a clean soul then?
Most people don't give a shit how their meat ends up on their plate, but get the muslims involved and all of a sudden it's a bloody outrage. Are people actually outraged by this, or is it a media thing? Didn't actually read the link.
I'm sure some people are genuinely outraged by Halal in its pure form but the media hasn't made the effort to tell them it's not that form.
If they're outraged by Halal in its RSPCA sanctioned form and they're not already vegetarians then they have issues they need to resolve, either because they're not realising how meat gets to their table, or else because deep down they just hate Muslims.
Kosher isn't much different and yet I doubt we'd have the same debate around that sort of food: there is a constant anti-Islamic rhetoric running now in our society and it's not going away any time soon. This is part of that, and it's popular because it's a way of being anti-Islam without being able to be called out on it.
anti-halal does not equate to anti-islam.
However what I can't work out is if kosher and halal meat is "crueller" than traditional meat that is knocked out before killed. Or zapped out. Or whatever. See, I son't know exactly.
Also, I'm so against any religious crap affecting society. It's like we're going backward, not forwards.
People can believe what they like but it shouldn't have a bearing on what meat I can and can't eat.
zapping the animal to numb the pain.
come on dude, you're better than that.
what i said here http://drownedinsound.com/community/boards/social/4447916#r8088778 still applies - only suddenly applying scrutiny to the sourcing of meat in light of something relating to Muslim culture is alarm bells all over.
being anti-Halal but, like Theo says, not anti-kosher, or not anti-battery farming, cheapo-meat-not-free-range-ethically-sourced-whatever, i'm exaggerating here but essentially you're saying "oh, i'm cool with animals being kept in miserable conditions and killed in probably horrible ways normally, but if it's to satisfy Muslims, well, you know"...i struggle to work out how you can read anything BUT islamaphobia into that (unless i'm spelling it wrong).
don't get me wrong, ethical vegetarians, people generally concerned with animal welfare who have misgivings about Halal, i'm not referring to them here. but as far as i can see they represent a very small minority of the people right now (as in last few days) kicking up a stink over Halal, and the people i've seen in life generally who kick up a stink about Halal
It feels like you're defending something I'm not saying: I definitely haven't said anyone who's anti-Halal is anti-Islam but given Halal only exists as a part of Islam it's tricky.
I specifically excepted people who have an issue with animal treatment from my conjectures so when you say "anti-halal does not equate to anti-islam." you are presumably NOT including those people.
So now I feel like you need to give me an example of people who object to Halal meats but aren't objecting to it on principle of it being an Islamic thing.
And your 14 other racist accounts too, ta.
dunno really. I suppose I'm against it, but I'm usually against any kind of religious nonsense.
not really that fussed though.
between cutting an animals throat, or sticking a bolt through it's head?
In both cases the animal has usually been stunned. Just because one method has a religious meaning doesn't to me make any difference.
However, I guess it makes sense that halal/not-halal is more clearly labelled so that people can exercise a choice, and that's sensible. The Islamaphobia that's been fuelled by the media is frustrating, and unexpected with upcoming elections.
the current bobbins in the paper is annoying, as there is a reasoned debate to be had, but all the hype will do is encourage tensions and reactionary shite from the powers that be.
Give support to animal rights organisation - right way
Write your opinion in biro on a Muslim's face in the bus queue - wrong way
It's very difficult to see the debate as anything other than pre-election islamophobia
Wasn't the aim of halal that it was the most humane method at the time, if it is no longer the most humane method halal should probably get an update
how's that working out for the Anglicans
I think religion might be more conservative now than ever before. Like, can you imagine the hoo-hah if the CoE decided to do away with dog collars? The Mail et al would be up in arms. I'm not sure what my point is. The last series of Rev was excellent.
we'll be sorted.
if you're against it and you haven't generally got a history of looking dead hard at where your meat's come from, or you're a vegetarian....
then you can't be surprised or upset if people draw the conclusion you're a bit islamaphobic
purely because he is islamaphobic, based on their laws and punishments.
but only to make me look good / better than other people, ina really unpleasant, snobbish way. Can I pretend to be outraged about this for those reasons, without looking like I don't like our Muslim brothers and sisters?
we all already had you down as Islamaphobic though, so it might not work
I look down on all non-Roman Catholics equally, nothing special about Muslims.
than their physical body and this has made them consider it.
Why do muslims believe it's important that slaughter is halal? For many it will be because the qur'an says so, others may feel it has a spiritual effect on their soul, if they are right, someone with other spiritual beliefs may not want that that effect on their soul.
anyone got a game of thrones gif of the Hound's line about people who name their swords?
I'd like to hear that line
wouldn't require racists to get involved in the first place, unfortunate though that outcome is.
like when was it agreed that unless otherwise stated, al meat bought and sold in the UK is non-halal?
no one who speaks german could be an evil man...
is there any legit reason to be against it?
I don't think it's unreasonable to eat meat and have concerns about animal welfare
of how much of the meat or meat-based food products sold in the UK qualify as halal? Curious because I think there could be a vaguely interesting discussion to be had regarding a culture, any culture, having an influence and visibility disproportionate to its own size.
The recent Subway thing was depressing, not because some of their branches had given in to the Sharia menace!!!1, but because it demonstrated troubling de facto segregation.
halal? is it meat you're looking for?
has anyone done that joke yet
is it Smee you're looking for?
but happy to eat all sorts of processed scraped off the floor shite on a daily basis no worries
as there is a point to be made about labelling and the default position being halal meat without necessarily telling everyone in certain situations. But it really is a minor point which no one really cares about, hence them not really bothering to make it clear. The problem is people are pretending that halal slaughter is inherently barbaric, when really it is no different, it just involves someone mumbling a prayer while they do it. You can bet 99% of the people moaning the loudest about halal slaughter don't give a flying shit about any other animal rights or slaughter issues, they don't eat free range meat and carry on with non-free range eggs. Which makes you wonder what is motivating them really. Fair enough if they don't want religion and animal slaughter being mixed, but don't pretend it is out of concern for animal welfare as it clearly isn't.
I don't get meat eaters who dislike Halal because it's 'more cruel' though it's not as if any animals killed for meat get a rosy time of it, people know this and I'm not sure I buy if they're actually feeling guilty. But that's obviously completely up to them.
A workmate of mine had an utter tantrum about this last week with the Subway thing and said she was going to vote BNP now because we were losing our British way of life or something, so there is a nasty side to this debate. As if we hold the way we kill things oh so dear. This sort of stuff makes me nervous
is why, in 2014, are religious views having influence over how society works.
Don't give a toot is it's Islamic, Jewish, Catholic, whatever reasoning, it's a load of old cobblers.
Believe what you want, but don't force it on others.
No matter how batshit their religion is. Especially important if they're a minority in a country.
If that involves eating a certain way that should obviously be available - and if you don't want it you should be made aware.
Besides producers/businesses realize the market makes money off individualism, and by selling foods linked to a ethical belief they won't be risking alienating that market (as with Subway), so I'd say it's money not religion itself at the root here.
Some businesses are making decisions that they're best served by providing halal and/or kosher food in some locations. As potential customers of those businesses we're then free to decide whether to go there or elsewhere.
It's not like there's been mass demonstrations organised by various mosques to make KFC/Subway et all serve halal meat or even to prevent the sale of non-kosher/halal food.
places like Subway have realised that in certain branches they have a majority Muslim customer base, the other customers generally don't care, so by making it a halal store they are keeping their customers happy. If it didn't make business sense, they wouldn't do it. Other places presumably have found it is easier to just make it a blanket halal only meat, in the same way many have gone blanket free range eggs or organic. Just means if someone asks "is this halal?" they can confirm it is.
This could change if the papers moan enough and people start asking "can I have non-halal meat please?". But that is unlikely, people like a moan but I doubt it will go further than that, there will be another story taking over next week.
and it's Subway's right to stock what they like. Fair enough.
Just don't like it on a personal level because it's religious reasoning. Which fucks me off. (Well, Subway's reasoning is £££).
can anyone link to an article?
There's a specific Halal section in my local supermarket so I wasn't aware of there being any contention
if no one knows that it is and they don't label is as such?
Do they just advertise the fact in muslim targetted press or something?
less likely to get complaints from a muslim accidentally eating it?
You've figured it out.
Some customers asked for halal no one else asked anything about the meat. "lets just get halal in no one cares" Boom. Halal chicken.
they've also been freely declaring it via their official twitter account for years
Why's everybody saying it like it's a new thing then? :D
This is deffo an islamaphobia issue and not an animal rights one isn't it.
Just read up and 15% of meat served in britain is halal.
i suppose the debate is if you assumed all your meat (good quality, not cheap shit) comes from humane killings....but really its not, you'd be pretty pissed off.
to assume that.
really? without knowing anything about it, I would assume that all meat sold in this country would have to adhere to some kind of animal welfare standards and that the method of slaughter would be included in those
then Halal slaughter (in this country) would also logically have to meet those standards, so no issue, surely?
like the animal has to be alive and healthy before being slaughtered....whereas other animals are stunned and their throat is not slit whilst they're awake and aware of it happening. It just seems quite cruel to me.
therefore subject to the same animal welfare standards as any other meat, *plus* the additional standards required for Halal. They don't override any national standards that are in place, just add to the requirements to be certified.
I don't think feeling that the specific method of slaughter may be cruel is unreasonable, particularly in the minority of cases where the animal isn't already stunned, nor (as Verbal implied above) that there isn't a reasoned debate to be had about our food chain in general - there's plenty of cruel practices that most of us probably aren't aware of.
Why would I be naive to assume that then? If you're paying a premium for a free range bit of meat, you'd assume that it would fit into the regulations of that quality of meat, which includes the living conditions, the feed, the slaughter, the butchering etc
◾Lairage, pens and gates must be designed and maintained to minimise stress and damage.
◾Animals must be handled with particular concern for their welfare and to ensure minimum stress and damage.
◾The animals should be admitted for slaughter as soon after arrival as possible and not left waiting at the slaughter-house for long periods of time.
◾All animals must be given access to clean water, adequate bedding if in lairage for over 6 hours, and organic feed if in lairage for over 12 hours
◾The animals must be slaughtered in a humane way, which reflects proper care and concern.
◾It is recommended that local abattoirs should be used wherever possible to reduce travel stress
pretty ambiguous really
to my knowledge, a halal slaughter involves having to make a clean single slash of the animal's neck and to let its blood drain completely. so, so long as it is stunned first, as around 90% of UK halal slaughters are, and the animal is treated in accordance with the Soil Association's organic standards, the slaughter itself can be either electrocution or neck slashocution
I just think it would be pretty head-in-the-sand for anyone to make broad positive assumptions about the mass-production meat industry these days.
I don't get the idea of a humane killing?
No matter how local or organic or free range meat is, killing something for meat will always have been an act of violence.
But obviously people should be made aware how something has been kept and slaughtered if they wish to be, the worst thing here is the misinformation surely?
yes surely the way the animal is kept should also be a subject of spiritual/moral scrutiny.
The most important spiritual care that one should take if one is going to kill to eat, is that the killing is as stress and pain free as you resonably can make it, also the keeping of the animal should be one not of tortuous prison, but of stress free happy existence (as a consideration to the livestock whose lives you deem to be forfeit according to your taste (mostly)).
I realise that this approach is not commeasurate with maximum profit and economic efficiency, but that is a price that should be paid to allow moral redemption be made for having the animals live a less fullfilling, natural and autonomous existance.
and slowing bashing their head in with a bat for example.
Killing with a clean shot is not allowed in the UK if you want to use the animal for food.
Halal or not, almost all animals are electrically stunned then it's throat is slit, just one method does a prayer first. I really don't see much difference, but if someone wants to know which it is I completely understand that. It's just really not that much more cruel imo
don't exist m8
Not sure that's the case with all others.
Is Halal better?
and all supermarkets in the uk only stock this pre-stunned 'humanely killed' halal meat. i guess smaller retailers (where most customers are muslims anyway) are the only places where you're gonna find meat from animals that havent been stunned. in practice then it basically just means the animal has to be killed by a muslim. which I don't think could even be a cruelty issue?
I think what people are feeling a bit uneasy about with this debate is the focus on 'halal' labelling or lack of labelling. people might have mistakenly assumed their meat always comes from a particular method of slaughter but why would they assume that? what is that based on? some muslim and jewish groups have called for comprehensive labelling of how animals are slaughtered, including lots of non-halal cruel methods which I think people would also wanna know about. which seems to make more sense than singling out this one particular method which the majority of the time isn't even any crueller than other methods.
"why would they assume that?"
I'm guessing most people would assume the standards relating to method of slaughter were governed foremost by animal welfare not religious doctrine
Don't think the people producing halal meat are governed by "religious doctrine" or animal welfare. Some people have devoutly held beliefs which mean they have particular dietary requirements and so there's a demand for halal meat and opportunity for profitable production of it. Doesn't mean the people making it give a shit about either religious doctrine or animal welfare.
Don't think the people producing halal meat are governed by "religious doctrine"
of course they are. if halal meat had to suddenly adhere to some other requirement then they would have to change their practices
no idea what you're on about sometimes
are meeting a demand rather than adhering to halal requirements because of their own personal religious or animal welfare beliefs.
yeah I got that, but was anyone claiming they were?
that it was a reasonable assumption to think that producers of halal meet were motivated/governed by animal welfare and not religious doctrine. I'm just saying I don't we can assume either of those things are prevailing motivations (profit/ staying in business is).
I wasn't talking about their motivations, just the standards they have to adhere to
smaller, independent retailers selling halal meat, like butchers, in places like rusholme and longsight where about 40% of the population are muslim.
I think you might have read the sentence as meaning ALL smaller retailers rather than smaller retailers which sell non-stunned halal meat?
would turn their nose up at something from a Muslim-owned Indian takeaway
So if it's an Indian takeaway the likelyhood is that it isn't halal
are run by Bangladeshis. I believe.
Though there's certainly a lot of Muslim-owned curry houses in my neck of the woods. And a lot of racists.
that's a strange place to set up your curry house
Unless you're vegetarian or vegan or place an importance on the provenance of the meat you eat, it's just islamaphobia dressed up as concerns for animal welfare and/or a sudden interest in secularism.
If you object to religion having a bearing on your meat, then that's a valid point to make.
However I agree you can't argue about the welfare on the animal if you are a meat eater. At all.
Watch this if you eat meat: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7eoF6w7R9oI
If you're secular, why would you care whether someone's 'blessed' your meat in an abattoir before you buy it? Does it make it taste different? Does it increase the risk of you catching islam?
I just wanted to post that video to share the guilt of the horrendous meat industry.
and you believe that when blessings/prayers are made something supernatural happens.
I agree with marckee too everyone
brusma is right
WHY NOT SAY I'M RIGHT?
Srs though, just joshing. This is a parody post. Perhaps of me.
About slaughterhouses, so that people can finally see what it's like in this illusive industry. If people want to have a choice about halal or non-halal then maybe they should be fully informed and watch Channel 4's "One killed every minute" documentary.
I go away for a week and there's like, what, three actual users standing up as Islamophobes. Heady stuff.
Did I miss anything else good?
Shame you missed it all.
That correlation is not causation, folks.
ONE HALAL OF A RIDE.
before any conclusions can be drawn.
to be against religious dogma of any kind, in this day and age.
Don't really give a shit about this halal thing but you shouldn't conflate it with racism.
that's the main thing. I don't think i understand halal, I htoght tat was where the blood had to be drained form the dlit throat of the animal befiore anythign else done to it or is taht all meat?
anyway. I'm off on holiday now, BYE.
and no one seemed to care. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1315278/Top-supermarkets-secretly-sell-halal-Sainsburys-Tesco-Waitrose-M-S-dont-tell-meat-ritually-slaughtered.html
the only question you need to ask yourself when debating which foods to eat is "will that taste nice?". if you think the answer's yes, eat it. otherwise, don't.
i eat a bit of halal, sure. no moral reason, the supermarkets just do a good job of caking it in sauces/herbs and making it look more appealing than regular meat. quite a few people i know or have met claim to be against it but don't really know why, most of them have eaten it without knowing and not noticed a difference.
The phrase 'islamist' for example, rather than extremist is something only done with muslims. The batshit crazy things christians have done in the name of their faith isn't labelled christianist for example.
Also the idea that people's cultural influences lile not letting wom3n drive or veilimg women is a muslim thong because it isn't. Its a saudi thing that thr religion does not ask for. Women have, for what is an old text, lots of roghts on the quran. And most sensible muslims adhere to the general gist of the r3ligion, and not the outdated stuff like rules regarding the trratment of slaves, cause obvz slavery is fucked up. But other things, like the phrase 'heaven lies under your mother's feet' and the other stuff that actually tells you to vakue your mother most in the world shows islam isnt some woman hating sect of creeps. A lot of other stuff too. Islam is inherently a peaceful religion that if taken the rightnway, is a guide to lead your life the best that you can. The quran is a beautiful, incredibly difficult bit perfectly written prose that uses on3 of the worlds most difficult languages in a stunning way. It also condemns any form of killing. Says you aren't im the position to judge a life so boko haram and all those other cunts are goimg against their faith.
Also halal meat is literally the samw as kosher except they say muslimy things over the meat instead of jewy. The only reason people are catering for muslims rather than jews is cause its the fastest growimg religion and there are simply more muslims around.
I'm actually writing a book about stuff like this. Seriously. To be published by the institute of education next year. Will sound a lot better though cause I just woke up and this probably doesnt even make sense (also, typos)
muslim thing not thong
And as for the whole meat thing if you arent already against eatinf meat then jog on, because there simply is no nice way to kill an animal for food. And muslims do have to adhere to the stunning here. Countries like mine whwre thwre are ni stunning tools kill thr animal in a sjngle stroke. Ive seen it. Its fucking terrible but it is humane, or as humane as you can get while slaughtering a sheep with a blade. So stunning as well here in the uk is a definite bonus. But idk the best thing is to just leave the poor fuckers alone but people will never stop eating meat
good post jb.
although I wish people would stop saying "there simply is no nice way to kill an animal for food" when some ways are clearly more humane than others.
There are defo ways better than others but I personally see it more like the lesser of two evils. Its hard to find genuinely ethically sourced meat and is why I mostly stick to fish haha
deserves to be served their own dead mothers head after she was killed in an halal friendly way. I really dont think as many people give a fuck about this as wishy washy hand wringers want to think
and raanrals' comment (however you might think it was phrased) is also close to the money. n.b. im absolutely no expert on halal standards or animal welfare, but i do work in a wholesale butchers' shop and almost all of our suppliers for lamb and beef are halal. only one we use semi-regularly isn't, and the reason we don't use him more is simply because the quality's sub-par and we can't serve a decent chunk of our customers his meat.
the vast majority of meat in this country will likely be halal these days, id guess its simply because it makes good business sense. my shop serves a lot of top-end butchers and they all buy halal meat. i doubt they advertise it as such but i also doubt they'd lie if asked. anyone who eats and enjoys meat should realise that its never been and never will be a completely clean business. free-range means very little, just that the rules piecesofreece posted will have been followed (hopefully).
places that charge top dollar for 'ethically-sourced'/organic/free-range meat are largely capitalising on wealthy people's desire to feel good about themselves (anyone really, but only people with money can pay this premium typically). i'm sure there are the occasional places that actually go through the rigmarole of sourcing it themselves, but short of owning your own farm, or having very close ties to a small-scale farm and being very selective with your abattoir (really not even sure if this part would be feasible) it's incredibly difficult.
i dont know enough about the supermarkets' model to be able to comment closely on it, but id heavily doubt they're any better. a lot of their stuffs shipped in from abroad, and the british stuff i'd imagine goes through many of the same channels we use so i can't imagine it's much better.
in short, if your concern for animal welfare or environmental issues outweighs your desire to eat meat then go veggie. a vast majority of the meat you consume (even free range and even organic) is going to have ethical problems along that supply chain. a lot of people prefer not to know, which is fair enough. i personally still choose to eat meat, and it being halal has literally no bearing on my choices. id agree that people bothered by that are likely influenced subconsciously by the islamophobic discourse that exists in this country.
on a related note- a lot of people ive spoken to (co-workers, high-end butchers, large-scale distributors) have all independently said that organic meat is the biggest rip off of all. according to them it has negligible bearing on quality and yet adds a decent chunk onto any price tag, basically netting producers and supermarkets easy money. a lot of people have in so many words said its a total scam, and i dont have much reason not to believe them on that.
I have a biodynamic butchers nearby (think the farm is a few hours away), the chicken is so expensive, the mince is reasonable.
what is it? if its some sort of small-scale, controlled supply chain then id imagine that it could very well be ethical in the ways people would like it to be. im really interested in potential models for this kind of thing (and similar models in other industries) so would be interested to read about this, link plz?
how much is the chicken and the mince?
(£15 when it's on special which seems to be a lot of the time)
The chicken is around £25 for 4/5 breasts depending on the size of them
Here is the farm http://www.laverstokepark.co.uk/
Here is more about biodynamics http://www.biodynamic.org.uk/
"An astronomical calendar is used to determine auspicious, planting, cultivating and harvesting times."
id imagine its probably a very good option for someone who cant own a farm themselves. no idea of quality differences with other very good meat, id guess its probably nowhere near the kind of difference they'd like you to think it is. if someone wants to eat as ethically as possible and can afford to pay those prices then the choice is theirs. personally if i had the money id still probably just look for the best quality through more standard avenues because those prices are 2 times what any member of the public could pay if they wanted to make the effort to find really high quality meat. then again a lot of high end traditional butchers employ even higher markups, without the ethical sourcing, so id choose that over them most likely.
i think a lot of my distaste comes simply from the fact that these businesses are fleecing their customers (not directing this at laverstoke, no idea of how much it would actually cost them to farm before any labour and markup were added). as an example their rack of lamb works out at just over 27.50 a kilo. the piece that comes from will range from ~5.50 to 8 pounds a kilo where i work, depending on demand. personally i see no reason why a high end butcher with good supply cant turn out a rack for an average of 13-14 quid a kilo, yet because of the perception of it being an expensive cut many are enabled to charge a lot more (some of our customers will charge way more than laverstoke id guess).
a lot of the reason im interested in this stuff is because im interested in how capitalism/consumerism works as a mechanism. as far as i can see it basically hinges on the question: how badly can businesses exploit false perceptions of value? which in turn begs the question, why would these businesses ever want accurate or honest assessments of value to be available to their consumers?
the simple point is: i think widespread affordable meat will never possibly be ethically sound, because the uk simply doesnt have the agricultural space:population size to allow it. the fact that the supermarkets and the media have lulled people into believing that free-range=all good (massive simplification obv) is criminal.
to go back to the halal debate: it really should be far more open that the majority of the meat sold in this country is halal. let people make their own choices rather than muddying the waters simply to maintain the status quo.
(Kinda like the time the foam guy popped up).
I was under the impression* that Morrisons, for example, own farms, so their meaty supply chain is more integrated into their business (and therefore more controlled) and somewhat different to that of, say, Tesco or Asda, who are little more than box shifters.
Dunno how true that is, or how it factors into the halal or animal welfare debate, if at all.
*based on reports from the horse meat story.
and generally emphasising their butchers and fishmongers at the counters. never looked into it properly but if your impression is true then yeah, i could buy into them being better than most pretty easily. point is even the people at the right end of the spectrum are probably worse than our perception of them, possibly a fair amount worse too.
i think it factors into the debate simply because this is about product vs. consumer perceptions. a lot of people have jumped into this halal debate simply because general perception is massively wide of the mark. this is evident in people's willingness to pay hugely over the odds for organic meat, and in the reaction to people finding out that halal's really really widespread now. obviously the meat industry and the government are massively responsible for these misguided perceptions which is something i massively disagree with. ignorance is bliss and all that, but i think its such a shitty model (not just in this industry, in our whole consumer culture), and one that also fuels our culture of monthly scandal and uproar. in a utopian world id advocate total transparency, giving individuals all the information to make informed decisions based on their personal ethics and morals. the meat industry's just one ive come to see first-hand, im sure its the case in a huge amount of industries we all use regularly.
really interesting stuff.
Animal products created from scratch (like built molecule by molecule) so enjoying a steak without going near a cow. It peobably won't happen in this lifetime though :(
I don't think they've perfected the taste but once they do theoretically, cheap sustainable mostly-guilt free food I suppose, unless it's run by a particularly evil corporation.
Just got reminded of the idea
I don't think my body would even be able to handle eating meat again
But the environmental and economic impacts of farming meat and dairy are obviously going to come to a head sooner or later
Might need a few stupidest ideas ever in the long run.