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Contains: props to Liverpool & Glasgow, and reference to Jonathan Meades.
Probably a bit late to do this justice, to be tbh, so don't put yourselves out unnecessarily: I'll be sure to give it a bump tomoz.
"you fear you're missing out by not living in London"
bottom right-hand corner. What's up with you man!
...and i've lived in Bolton.
there are no jobs here
noise gigs three or four times each week for the next month or so and i'll move there now
He's basically saying that London has been allowed to become too dominant that everywhere else is just left trying to play catch up.
He's admitting that at the moment, despite all the problems with trying to afford to live in London, it's essentially the only choice there is.
Stop waiting for someone else to do it for you.
but since moving here, going to the theatre has become my main hobby. There is practically no theatre culture anywhere else in the UK, so I'd pretty much have to give up that interest entirely if (when) I move away.
It's living in London I hate though, and the total disconnect that people who live here have from the rest of the country. In every other city in the UK, you can take a local bus from the city centre to a rural (or at least semi-rural) area. The fact that you can't do this in London makes me feel so claustrophobic. But I don't hate London itself, it's a beautiful and exciting city with so much going on. If only I could be permanently based back in Northumberland, but have to travel to London regularly for work or something- that would be perfect.
what's a theatre?
Anyone got the number for the Hyperbole Police?
Most middle class-ish towns have an art centre with a shit ton of theatre.
fucking hell, if even remotely serious.
jfc, even if not serious.
Went over your head a bit, that one, didn't it:
obviously. Of course there are theatres other places in the country- in Newcastle (my hometown) you have Northern Stage and Live Theatre for a start. But there are probably about 5 good productions a year between them, whereas in London I can go to the theatre a few times a week if I want, and still not see everything decent. Plus there is very little experimental work in the regions, and little place for devised and multi disciplined stuff (like the kinda stuff you get at Battersea Arts Centre) outside of one month a year at the Edinburgh fringe.
As I said, there is no theatre CULTURE in other places- I'm not talking about a couple of good theatres, I'm talking about the culture that builds up around a large and wide variety of theatregoers and theatremakers, and organisations developing new work and investing in playwrights and theatre companies. Not enough interesting theatre in this country tours- yeah, Headlong tours, but not enough and tbh they don't tour their most interesting stuff. Theatres in the regions basically don't get any new writing. I saw Incognito in Newcastle the other day, and realised that it was the only interesting piece of new writing in the North East since Brilliant Adventures almost a year previously. Take a recent hit- people are saying that King Charles III is the best mainstream play since Jerusalem (I'm seeing it next week). Will it tour? Will it fuck. It'll transfer to the West End and then win some awards and no-one outside of London will ever see it. Just like Jerusalem.
In the last year I've seen 100+ plays: despite only living in London for 7 months of the year, I only saw 4 of those plays outside of London (3 in Newcastle and 1 in Manchester). When I leave London, yeah I'll be able to see a couple of RSC productions a year, yeah I'll be able to see some National Theatre Live broadcasts of big stodgy NT plays, but my actual hobby- which is going to see exciting and experimental new writing/theatremaking on a weekly basis- just won't be possible anymore. And I find that absolutely gutting.
but 'no theatre culture' is an utterly ludicrous thing to say. No original writing? Come off it. I can only really speak for Sheffield but in the couple of years I lived there I saw plenty of of interesting, original plays and original productions of classics from Northern based theatre companies and missed a load more due to not having the funds to catch everything I wanted to. Was it comparable to London? No, of course not - you're right that there isn't the culture to sustain anything like it. But to say that culture doesn't exist is insulting gibberish.
which is certainly comparable to London. So why shouldn't theatre be the same? I'd never think of three theatres or whatever as a 'theatre culture', because all the creative, interesting stuff is the minority, it's a part time thing, and the rest of the time taken up with populist stuff, or other ways to use the building (e.g. Live Theatre in Newcastle seems to put on more music than theatre). And that's not to mention the awful 'local interest' stuff. If I have to see another play about fucking miners. Shudder.
but in the North they basically seem to be about romanticising our industrial past.
The interesting stuff is the minority, for sure - though to the people that put on that stuff it's most certainly not a, 'part time thing.' There are still people doing weird and wonderful things - but there isn't as much space for them to operate in. It means that the real 'theatre culture' in a three theatre set-up has to fight harder to be noticed, but again denying it's existence is just plain wrong.
I'm 100% with you on plays about mining though. I moved from the north of England to Wales - I am fucking sick of mining stories.
There are 3 renowned theatres (crucible, Lyceum, studio) literally opposite each other. There are loads of great theatres in towns and cities across Britain.
great city for theatre. Really miss it now I'm in Cardiff - not that there aren't some fine theatres here but having them all in that lovely square with the winter gardens nearby all within walking distance of my flat was bliss.
so it's hardly comparable, is it? And while I know that there's good stuff at those theatres, looking at the website it's hardly gold all the time. I Wish I Was Lonely and Cape Wrath are good, there are two other plays that look promising-ish, but other than that it's mainly West End touring stuff, a bit of Shakespeare, and children's shows. You never get regional theatres with hit after hit (like the Almeida recently), because there are so few theatres in most cities that they have to satisfy everyone all the time, so just have a complete hodge podge of stuff and no clearly defined creative outlook. What we need are loads of interesting new writers being commissioned to write new plays outside of London. This just doesn't happen at the minute (with the exception of Nick Payne's Incognito for Hightide Festival, although the only place outside of the South East it played was Newcastle).
if you can only survive by having 10 theatres and unbounded choice every weekend - then fine, London is for you.
However to say that nowhere is even comparable to London is narrowminded.
I'm not a big theatre buff but I like the fact that on the whole it's easier to see the wood from the trees with a smaller choice, especially as what Sheffield Theatres put on is nearly always high quality.
just because there was a few ok bands and one club
such a shit writer. literally every single sentence has to contain the set-up and punchline of a 'joke', where the joke is some mean-spirited comment about people that aren't him. it's unreadable
some vice writing is good. it's just this guy's prose style that really annoys me, i think doubly because he often picks subjects that i am interested in reading about, like lad culture and melancholic english cities
It's all truisms really - London has been allowed to become too dominant in every sphere of of life within the UK and compared to other cities, while these cities, hamstrung by central government and the wealth-aggregating, trickle-up effect of capitalism, expend too much effort trying to ape all the things about London that aren't actually what makes it such a great place to live.
Manchester, Glasgow, Newcastle and Sheffield are the least shit ones.
Initial thoughts, add to the "not shit" list
because Leeds is shit.
the fact that it's not manchester makes it indier
Loads of craft beer places. Lots of gig venues. I live in a lovely part of it and I've got tickets to WWE at leeds arena
Loads of bands and it has The Brudenell which is basically the best place of all.
£2.80 a pint, great sound and views.
Glasgow, Bristol and Birmingham, I reckon. Manchester has its charms
people need to stop pretending there are vast differences, or differences worth paying double rent to pretend you go to a museum more than once a month
I can go to the museum and the gallery WHENEVER I WANT!
How often do you want to?
at the Corn Exchange.
and do First Thursday in Vyner street bi-monthly. The art and the rock scene was why I moved here...that and the jobs.
Museums are hardly worth going to unless you take a day off work and it's not a school holiday.
See you all there
Its Sunday not Saturday. SUNDAY
Going to the lewes medieval festival on Saturday \m/
See you on Sunday
do for work outside of London?
(didn't read article)
good point, I don't think they have pens outside london
writing is done on computers in London
ah, I see. no wonder that can't be done in any other city.
Got fed up, quit my job, moved to the Dorset coast. That was in December.
It has completely changed me for the better.
I'm more relaxed, and fitter. All my minor health problems have gone.
The most astounding change is how nice the people are. It makes living so much more enjoyable when there are nice people on the roads, in the shops, in the pubs, on the street.
I can actually afford to live here, with a beach on my back doorstep. Amazing.
Best decision I ever made.
But lots of people feel they ought to, when they'd suit living somewhere else much better.
Having lived in London my whole life, when university came around I wanted to get out and studied in Norwich. Terrible idea, really. I missed London greatly, and moved back within a couple of years.
Now I'm in my thirties I think my capacity to put up with bullshit has thinned to the point where I needed to get out.
As Dr Johnson once said "When a man is tired of London, it's because it has turned into an unaffordable cultural cesspool."
gonna prolly do this in a few years
what do you do for work?
but the Poole-Bournemouth conurbation (woo! fancy!) has jobs going for digital and financial specialisms. You just have to be willing to take a cut in salary.
someone said the other day!
Maybe when I get a bit older but the quiet life isn't for me. In fact the idea of living in a small town gives me the fear.
in general terms.
why did you leave?
marckee is just playing his 'smug London cunt' role again.
Better than Reading, at least.
Reading has a 5 guys
(I actually live in Twyford, cheers x)
closed down like 4 years ago. Was actually the last proper gig I did as well. :(
never actually went - i always imagined mr c from hollyoaks ran it
Despite it being stuck in the early 2000s, it's not a terrible town.
as well as my employers not being great - Fantastic company, poorly run.
Tottenham and Forest equal second.
We all like to have a go at hipsters, or middle-class yuppies, or graduates desperate to work in the arts or whatever, but there's a lot of them, and a lot of them post on here. If you want to work in journalism, or publishing, or a big digital firm, or a top financial firm, or top political jobs, or TV jobs, or advertising, or hundreds of other things - then London is where you have to be based. I know there are exceptions, but by and large that's how it works, and until something changes that, the problem is only going to intensify.
but there is a sea-change where the rents are pushing businesses to have their business foothold/head office in London (to meet clients etc) but move their IT and other services out to cheaper sites (admittedly, mostly satellite towns just inside or outside the M25), and since these services include creative workers (for example IT has its designers), they will also move.
This obviously doesn't include the creative hotspots dotted around London (most visible in Shoreditch, but parts of Fitzrovia, Soho and Belgravia, etc) but I think they are becoming more isolated.
The high visibility of hipsters probably makes it feel like the creative youth is growing in London, whereas in reality the graph has probably peaked and started to dip.
Is moving all central support services to Brum from London because the cost per square foot for Holborn really doesn't make sense any more.
but yes, there will become a point where the cost of living and the cost of business means that more people/jobs leave the city than are attracted there.
Our old industrial cities used to have their own identities, occupying economic niches based on access to geographic features or nearby raw materials. Deindustrialisation has swept all of that away and a legacy of inconsistent regional policy and underinvestment ever since has kept what has sprung up to replace it largely confined to the south east.
I went to Barcelona last month as part of my studies and we had a presentation form the city council's regeneration arm about what they're getting up to. I've no doubt a lot of the figures were massaged, but the core ideas were so great and so much more innovative than anything I've seen here in local or central government discourse, and a lot of it was tied into strengthening the Catalan identity and economic autonomy.
Having said that, I think it's worth pointing out that the brief period between about 1995 and 2008 was the only time since the second world war when the UK's regional cities weren't in decline, in terms of population and economic activity. The idea of aspiring to live in a city, rather than aspiring to move to the country is still a relatively novel one in the UK.
I think I've found my new _vikram.
Live in London if you want to CHASE THE DREAM like some kind of American cliché, but for god sake shut the hell up about living there.
hark back to the Hacienda, and think that Manchester lost anything when it closed down. It was big room of nothing when it closed. Completely irrelevant as a venue. As for the Night and Day, good riddance. Shit venue, fucking rubbish. Expensive beers, shit sound, hotter than hell in the summer. Somewhere better (the deaf institute) 'stole' its trade, and good on it, the place was turning into an embarrassment. Not desperately clinging onto these venues in an overly sentimental way is what separates us from the scousers.
don't cling onto their musical heritage in an overly sentimental way???
I said venues, pal.
classic, regular haunts?
diary and pen -- time for an exciting trip to the museum!
i'm so happy i've left.
british culture was only invented in the 1960s, and only just about spread outside of london in the mid to late 70s.
Fairly ridiculous sized house 15 mins walk from City Centre, enough money left over after bills to spend on silly things like posh candles and twatty chalk paint, and enough room for a family to live so we don't have to think about moving in a few years.
We both enjoy theatre, but there's enough good stuff on at Curve in Leicester, the odd thing that comes through the Theatre Royal and National Theatre Live, as well as trips to London and Edinburgh that we don't feel we're missing out.
i feel like the locals would want us to fuck off
I wouldn't have thought.
by being all primark and costa. which isn't true everyones copying london by being bread and artisanal et ceteras you know bike co ops
which we all know are great so whats the problem?
i'm only joking. remember the trouble i'm having finding good bread. thats still trouble. people should need a bread licence
...why don't you not live there?
£140m for a flat
Could have gone and got a nice two bed flat in Denmark Hill for £280k and then pocketed the change (£139,720,000). Someone should have told him
The only thing I didn't know or think previous to reading it but do know or think now is that I'd really like a big fuck-off pizza at some point this weekend, and I'd have probably come to that decision without a masturbatory reference dump eventually anyway.
Tangential to this particular article, but that's kinda the point I'm going to badly make- seems like in all the Guardian/Vice/soppy blogs/DiS hand-wringing and sneering over whether or not London is any good and if people should move there, there's rarely any attention paid to the fact that some people are actually fucking from there. It's wonderful that people can pop along for a few years for a bit of a laugh and then disappear back home once they've had enough of paying 110% of their income in rent, but for some people our whole lives are here and I don't just mean museums and galleries.
There's always a pressing, urgent need to be mean about marckee
Although, if I take a step back and look at out of my friends which were born and bred London? I could most likely put them on two hands and even most of them are zone 5 and 6.