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Just so you can pretend to visit the museums, and eat pulled pork.
this earlier in the week
I find myself asking myself this an awful lot these days. Currently my answer is for the moment, it's grand.
wetherspoons does pulled pork now
you're gonna need an updated food for this sort of drivel.
can it be that?
christ, wonder what that was
Meow and I went there on Friday night. It's nice, but a little expensive (though that's to be expected in Covent Garden I guess).
you wanna get yourself down Bournemouth, mate. Sea air, good access to a hot air balloon and Gazza
Bournemouth is the ugliest sea side town I've ever been to
for living anyway.
When I moved to London about 8 years ago I always thought I wouldn't live outside zone 2, but i've changed my mind on that. The cost to quality ratio these days (both building quality and quality of life) just doesn't make it worth it anymore.
I'll buy outside zone 2 for sure
I've got no chance of living where I grew up!
It's a really pretty place but it's been overrun with monied divorced people.
and escaped the biblical imprisonment of marriage, lucky fucks
I can't see myself living in London as a 'grown up'.
the odds are pretty slim of you living anywhere as a "grown up".
(that was for the 5 guys burn, dickhead x)
covered in stuff like that?
"I had five guys and went home fully satisfied!"
The sexual innuendo is lacking though.
One weekend a month I go do the galleries, west one month, east the next. Occasionally hitting up First Thursdays for free drinks as well.
Not sure if there is another city where you can go art gallery hopping for an afternoon like that without spending a penny (although I'm sure you'll prove me wrong).
Not to mention the gigs, yeah you can travel into London but there is something about walking to a gig venue seeing a massive band and walking home.
I think there are artists and galleries outside of London, but it's not really my 'thing'
you're in walking distance of ALL the venues. 20 minute walk to see Coldplay at the arena if you wanted to see a big gig.
Obviously the trade off is that London has ALL the bands/gigs; Nottingham only some of them.
judging by this morning's performance so far.
You can be a little bitch sometimes, you know.
A handsome one, though x
Not drinking enough fluids at the weekend.
assuming I start off at the bottom of the barrel and don't have a degree?
Would probably be able to find a job that better suits me, too.
Still don't want to.
don't really fancy it
it's ok and they make the most of it. can't be good for anyone in the long term though
Living in London with people you don't get on with: isolating, and you stay out of the house because of it, so you feel almost completely un-anchored to life.
Living in London alone with no friends nearby: potentially pretty good for the soul to begin with, and then very quickly the city can become intimidating. A trip across town can suddenly feel like a world away so you stay in, every night.
Living in London with a person/people you love: just pretty much perfect. Tons to do, tons to see, always something on.
I'm lucky enough to also be in an area that has true community spirit, which is very good for the heart. But yeah. I can understand why someone moving here for the first time without a network of friends can be utterly unmoved by this place.
any city, town, village in the world
I've moved alone to towns and just walked into pubs and made friends. In London there's a different feel. And Manchester, as a comparison of a city, welcomed me very quickly, which was a real breath of air after London's relative hostility.
So I'm not so sure. But I take your point, at least.
Especially with pub geezers, and the stigma of going to a pub to drink by yourself (which I do as well because I'm an outgoing introvert - not a good combination). You must have some enviable social skills.
can be quite nice, only problem is sometimes I've noticed too late that I've maybe made the wrong decision of venue and I spend the whole time awkwardly trying to not look like some wannabe pick up artist on the prowl or something.
Larger cities with a more transitory/non-local population do tend to be more impersonal by nature. Although interestingly enough the best example of this is probably Milton Keynes which has the highest suicide rate of any UK city (at least true when I read about this) because it has a high population of non-local single men who have moved there for work and therefore have poor social networks - additionally Milton Keynes lacks both a central hub and decent local amenities leading to increased isolation.
when said `thing` can relate to any other city/town in the country. People are happier when they have access to better social networks?! Who knew...
Really can't be bothered with this. It was a general observation, and wasn't anti or pro London. I've lived in tiny villages, large towns and big cities, and it's just honestly how I see it. Feel free to get sarcy - I can't be arsed.
is that the size of the city has a factor on the feeling of loneliness.
If you can't be arsed with a back and forth about subjective personal experiences of London then that's absolutely fair enough! At no point was any personal criticism levelled, or was going to be levelled.
You bring most slangings on yourself, by my observation.
And note my answer to labmonkey, who put forward a reasonable argument without being A Bit of a Cunt About It.
to a point you've made to be a personal attack? Making an observation based on your personal experience is fine - although if you extrapolate it to be a grand point which doesn't tally with someone else's experience then... it's also fine for them to challenge it.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again, you're a very odd fellow.
" People are happier when they have access to better social networks?! Who knew."
Isn't a particularly lighthearted counter-argument, is it? It's just sweeping sarcasm, and it's not an actual point made.
And yes, I'm well aware that's your take on me. I don't really think anything about you, except that you're often one for sweeping statements, which is fine, but do you need to fire up the old-curmudgeon bullshit at 10:30am?
a lighthearted counter-argument, relative to the pseuding that preceded it.
more that I can completely understand why people new to the city can be completely put off and want to leave again, or why it seems far too much stress/hassle to move there.
You literally can't have a thought about London on this board (that isn't super negative) without certain people - and you're one of them - getting hyper irked* about said comment.
*I am fully aware that I am at this point v irked, btw.
That, oddly, I find more offensive than anything else. I was just putting down what was in my head - apologies Wza.
Whiled away a few minutes whilst having a shit, though.
...which seems in line with the general irreverent tone of this forum but there's always a risk sarcasm can be taken the wrong way so I'll carry the can for that. There are less facetious ways of making a point (and there is 100% an `actual point` there!) I agree, but I intended it to be jovial...
Look - from what I know of you on here I think you're a decent chap who I'd doubtless very much enjoy the company of IRL but, seriously, you don't half overreact to the odd playful riposte (merited or otherwise) here and there.
Not sure that labmonkey's tone was that different to mine but there we go. Bottom line is I meant no slanging, and I meant no harm - apologies if either were taken.
Some days I enjoy (and partake in) the irreverence on here with aplomb. Some days for some reason it gets my back up. It's just been largely bad luck that for some reason I'm in the latter frame of mind when you counter something I say and then I go Batshit Irked about it.
But yeah, I *do* see the point you're making, that it's just a Londoner going 'it's a London thing'. But I think I put over what I was trying to say wrong - I think I more meant that having lived in a ton of places, all different sizes, London felt more lonely than anywhere else, and I know a lot of people who've said the same. Anecdotal and probably silly, but it's at least interesting.
why would they bin the oats? They were in my drawer which was closed and now they're gone. :(
I see the point you're making too. Let's shake hands on it and chalk it off as a Monday thing.
I need breakfast before I go full dickhead and shout at a puppy or something.
I totally misread as being pretty snide too.
Let's all argue about tone.
The worst marriage ever.
and understand the specific, narrow, *actual* sense in which criticism of tone is a Bad Thing, rather than just sounding a klaxxon whenever the word is used, that'd be lovely.
At least I'm not Fidel, eh?
London and feminism, let's make really inflammatory.
fanning the flames whilst decrying the heat, foppyish. you're a monster.
of conversation on internet forums can be more susceptible to misinterpretation than in everyday conversation but then it doesn't matter because tone isn't important anyway.
made you cry
Frosties are shit, Tone, you hear me? What you going to do about that, you tiger cunt?
Really enjoyed messing around with the Boss MO-2 over the weekend. Am not totally sold on the TE-2 yet.
Got a Keeley Luna Overdrive and a Keeley-modded Boss TR-2 on the way.
On Sat I went and got back an amp I loaned to someone five years ago.
It's a prototype of the Hayden Essex blonde. It's been beaten to fuck because of the amount it was toured, but I managed to tighten all the screws up and it sounds fucking great.
The circuit is basically the precursor to the Tiny Terror (because they were all wired by Matamp originally), and it breaks up even at low volume. Balls for clean tone but amazing for getting crunch.
MASSIVE fan of the Luna too.
My main gigging overdrive pedals are Keeley-modded BD-2 and SD-1 and a Katana Clean Boost.
Therefore really looking forward to the Luna.
That amp sounds sweet, brah. There's definitely a place for amps that have low clean headroom and sweet, musical break-up. I've got a Cornford Carrera, which is a bit like that. In my old age, I'm getting cleaner in my TONE, though.
over a piece of light-hearted sarcasm which went wrong (which is always the risk) rather than someone forcefully advocating gender equality. Happy to be the focus there.
When I first moved to London I only knew a couple of people and I rarely saw them because they were in south London and I was in Dalston.
It took me a year or two to build a network of people. Mostly it was luck that we all moved to the same area.
Have a nice house, get married, have kids. Two of those I'd really struggle to do unless I was earning two or three times what I currently do.
Perfectly happy with my standard of living here, and being able to visit London every couple of months for the culture stuff that you don't get round here.
But maybe it's only because I don't know what else to do with my life.
And I've always enjoyed visiting friends there. I liked feeling anonymous but I can see how it would really grate on some people after a while.
as brewdog like to think their customers do about coming to their bar
as in: "Hey I'm part of the revolution. Living in london/drinking craft beer is a journey. Sure there's ups and downs, but what's important is that I'm experimenting. I'm right in there in the throng of the whole human drama and I pity those small minded, unambitious people who want to live anywhere else/drink lager. Don't they want to feel alive?"
Anyway, fidel_castro and marckee, thats you, that is.
The LME has moved on a long time ago.
waaaaay before Brew-Dog became a Bigger Thing. If anything Brew Dog was when craft went mainstream.
I only drink gin made in the local area now.
my point is there's nothing more adventurous or noble about paying a premium to live somewhere with more access to varied consumer choice
(except for Marckee, of course, the massive wanker)
and live there.
Stoke Newington, or Streatham (AKA the jewel of the South)
aka arsehole vajazzaling
Don't want to live anywhere else.
and as someone who lives in the provinces I'd like to say to Londoners: FUCK YOU
Fuck you too
I can't imagine living anywhere else for the rest of my life tbh. Only problem is... house / flat prices. The place we had an offer accepted on (and then subsequently pulled out of) was actually sold for 15k *more* than we'd have bought it for. Like, what the fuck? We're effectively priced out of where and what we want to buy when 6 months ago we could have.
I'm going to end up buying in Catford or Penge or somewhere even shitter, aren't I?
You should have told us this sooner!
It's so depressing though.
you probably should have bought it
top 5 worst life decision, right there
it's worth it for me because of loads of reasons why it might not be worth it to others. For example: most (okay-paid) jobs in my sector are in London (you'll get paid fuck all somewhere else). All my mates are here. I go to loads of gigs, clubs, galleries, museums, theatres all the time, every week. The small downsides such as slightly high rent (but affordable for us) an hour-ish commute don't bother me (mainly cos it's a very easy counter-commute) because I enjoy everything else that London offers.
"slightly high rent"
House prices in London compared with the same property of a similar size. similar location and in similar relative location to a property in a city in the Midlands or the North will probably be many times more expensive.
But rents are usually within reach - especially when you consider that London jobs often pay slightly more.
I've really no idea, but looking here:
Property Rents in London NE by Number of Bedrooms
No. of properties Average rent
One bedroom 4,850 £1,320 pcm
Two bedrooms 6,294 £1,828 pcm
Property Rents in London NW by Number of Bedrooms
No. of properties Average rent
One bedroom 4,082 £1,258 pcm
Two bedrooms 6,157 £1,825 pcm
roperty Rents in London SE by Number of Bedrooms
No. of properties Average rent
One bedroom 1,981 £1,277 pcm
Two bedrooms 2,785 £1,734 pcm
Property Rents in London SW by Number of Bedrooms
No. of properties Average rent
One bedroom 3,587 £1,603 pcm
Two bedrooms 6,522 £2,291 pcm
Property Rents in Edinburgh by Number of Bedrooms
No. of properties Average rent
One bedroom 423 £646 pcm
Two bedrooms 629 £842 pcm
Property Rents in Glasgow by Number of Bedrooms
No. of properties Average rent
One bedroom 301 £419 pcm
Two bedrooms 551 £607 pcm
Property Rents in Greater Manchester by Number of Bedrooms
No. of properties Average rent
One bedroom 1,131 £478 pcm
Two bedrooms 2,918 £598 pcm
(there's no way the formatting of this post is going to work)
I pay £1167/month for a lovely 2 bed flat in SE and I would say that's slightly less than average for the area. Though obvs that stuff above is taking higher rents further in into consideration.
you're still paying 2x the average rent in glasgow or manchester not just "slightly higher"
More than I pay on a mortgage for a large family sized home in Nottingham.
Pretty insane what's happening around our way right now. Reckoned that FH prices had gone up 60% in the last 9 months and that she had a waiting list of 1000+ people. Said she hated her job now as you organise an open day and the first person often just puts an offer in immediately after getting to the front of the queue, usually for £000s more than the asking price. Sometimes they don't even look round or turn up, just call up and do it.
She said no-one knows why. Admittedly for your cash, SE London was always undervalued compared to what you get elsewhere but she said she thinks it's insane, almost blind panic. Reckoned we could flog our house right now and make £200K on what we bought it for 3 years ago. Half tempted to do that and start a B&B up in Scotland...
Friends were looking around our way a year back and their budget now means they're instead looking at Penge, Norwood, Sidcup etc. Starting to find that even those areas are shooting up.
WHO HAS GOT ALL THIS MONEY?!?! WHERE DO THEY KEEP GETTING IT FROM?!?!
I don't know what to do, tbh. This is what we had an offer accepted on:
It was up for 300k. We went to an open house, were one of the last people to see it. We absolutely loved it. Went straight to the pub, had a pint and then phoned out offer in of 290k afterwards. This was, iirc, a Saturday evening. On the Monday morning our offer was accepted I presume because we were first time buyers with a mortgage in principle, a rather large deposit and no chain and then about 5/6 weeks later we got scared... possible subsidence, and also it would have been the most expensive 2 bed flat on that street by quite some way. We decided not to go through with it and we're now renting instead for more than that our mortgage repayments would have been.
It not even the case of "ooh look it's a bit grotty round here, I bet houses are a bit cheaper" (Pekchma I'm looking at you). We might have to settle for a 1 bed though I've no idea how we're gonna downsize.
just down the road from where we are now, for well within our budget and because it needed some serious redecoration we were like NAH
No point buying if there are deep rooted issues though, you did the right thing. (Some more thorough surveyors will warn against subsidence in FH btw as the whole of SE London is built on mainly clay (that's why there isn't an Underground around our way, the soil is too soft). Insurance companies used to not always give mortgages around our way but it's worth asking your surveyor if they're covering their own ass (many do to avoid later getting sued) or if they think it's a genuine concern).
I guess the other thing to work out is do you need to buy? We decided we did because we knew the missus was 3 weeks from being out of work and that we'd likely never be able to do so again if we didn't do it there and then. But otherwise we'd be renting now and I don't think I'd mind overly. The house costs us a fortune in upkeep and whilst it's great to be paying it off little by little, it's also quite a pain and a neverending stream of bills.
I think a few places in the SE are rising higher than others (Beckenham, FH, CPalace, etc) but other areas aren't so bad just yet (Penge, Anerley, Norwood). And all those places have good things going for them and are within 15 mins walk of another great spot. They'll change in time too, FH is really different now compared to 3 years back. Could be worth taking the plunge on one and getting a longer term, 3 bed place there rather than paying over the odds for somewhere you know you'll grow out of in a years time? Seems terrifying at the time but in truth you'll have little desire or cash to take full advantage of the local area once all the bills pour in anyhow!
Yeah, it's fine. We can afford to rent (that's hoping our landlord doesn't vastly increase it come August... we're currently getting a pretty good deal for a bloody lovely flat I'd be happy to actually own) for the moment and our deposit will always be there (and is growing ever-so-slowly). I think it's just the fact it was within touching distance for us, and now it seems so far away. We also had slight reservations about buying somewhere without ever living there for a bit first but obvs they've since been dashed. Also I reckon as soon as we buy a place it'd be the start of a "proper" settling down with marriage and kids and that and I'm definitely not quite ready for that just yet.
We had the same thing when we were looking to buy around Wandsworth. In hindsight, I wonder why we ever wanted to now?!!
One thing it's genuinely worth weighing up is given the hastle involved in moving once, is it worth doing so twice? Plenty of people we know were told 'get on the ladder' and did, but they've now got to the point where their 1 bed flat is still near some nice bars and has gone up in value, but they want a 3 bed place for when they have kids in the next 4 years or to house the bikes / family when they visit etc. They have to sell their place whilst buying somewhere else and that is a huge pain, involving chains and lots of things out of your control as well as finding all those fees and stamp duty again, which are what scupper a lot of first time buyers. Whereas when you buy for the first time, you are relatively free and easy.
We never consciously realised at the time but got our house for £10K less than a rival offer because of that and skipped the whole pain of having to sell and buy simultaneously.
When we sat down and worked it out, we realised it was worth taking the plunge. We were 4 years off of wanting kids but the maths just didn't add up. Buy a flat now, have 5-6 years of fun relatively on the doorstep but then find the £15K cash all over again whilst those bigger places we'd move to after went up in price at a rate we could never catch or take a punt on a bigger place now in an area where the jury was out but that we could call home forever more potentially.
The only real difference in our life when we rented near a high street vs a 15 minute walk from one was in our mindset and we went out just as much, but only had one neighbour to worry about as opposed to the 3 on all sides from before.
So yeah... obviously everyone's different and you need to do what you need to do but it's well worth a trip around Norwood, Penge etc to see where the next FH is gonna be I'd say if you know you want to be in London long term.
Plus: end of the 176, you can fall asleep and not ever worry.
It's got a KFC. And a nice garden centre on the back streets.
(Ok, fair point)
It has a Wilkinsons. Ummm...
TBH Anerley might be a better place I reckon.
But know it's on the Overground AND nearer Crystal Palace. And Crystal Palace is pretty wicked.
It's so good.
Penge is pretty shit. And the only pub I liked has closed down...
people were saying that about places like Forest Hill and Walthamstow.
Buying in London is a massive compromise. Where you can afford never equals your first choice of where you want to live. Also - you've got a big enough deposit to buy, and afford a mortgage on, a house worth £300k and you're under 30? Think you might be more fortunate than you realise :/
Definitely going to be quiet now.
We're hopefully getting a spacious 2 bed (no outside space) because we want to have a child one day. Doubt we'll be able to afford 2 kids ever so... works for us.
Actually took on a piece of your own advice when looking - think you said in a previous thread to be thinking `can you imagine yourself still living here in 10 years time` and that's been the most important thought in the whole search. So thanks for that! Pretty sure a spacious 2 bed will be fine to have the 2 of us + a child of under 8 in it. Won't have a garden but... think having a garden in London these days (even Zone 3+) is mostly out of the reach of the average FTB. My experience of friends buying is that you either have the 2nd bedroom or you have a garden. Very difficult to have both.
Seems to be all I talk about these days; but that's because almost everybody I know is either moving or trying to I guess...
I could take or leave our garden. It's nice to have (when it gets the sun for the hour or so in the afternoon that it does) and the missus loves it but it's far too small to be of any use with the little one. See the local park being far more important in the long run. I certainly wouldn't turn down a great flat or house somewhere you love because of the lack of a garden, but I'm less of an outdoors person I guess. Guess many London-dwelling folk are truth be told...
Good luck with the purchase!
advice in the other thread a year or so back. Which I valued more from a peer to peer perspective rather than my Dad's ranty bollocks on the issue (`You're spending HOW MUCH on WHAT???` etc.)
But yeah I can't imagine buying somewhere just to make a bit of money or having to move once settled in to move further out. I'd rather take it all into consideration now. Sure when I first moved to London I didn't think that the place I'd want to initially settle down in (from 30 - 40 ish) would be a 2 bed flat on a main road on the edge of Zone 4 but... with a top end budget of £225k, that's what you end up with.
Foreign investors = bottomless pit of cash money.
Buy to let landlords = plenty of cash from equity in other houses in London/endless wealth generation.
First time buyers = parental money. Which is only going to be growing now the baby boomers are starting to die and their horrible children are inheriting all their money...
The interesting this is (as Mark Carney has pointed out) most properties in London are being bought without mortgages at the moment. The semi-worrying thing is about how many of these are foreign investments because, y'know, one day those investors will take their money elsewhere and this will cause a wobble in the market.
Thing is both the BTL brigade and the middle-class FTB brigade are not even close to saturation yet by my reckoning. There is a LOT of cash still to be inherited, and a lot of this will end up in London property.
there are people out there with more cash than you to buy it? We're getting to the point now where there'll be no-one in the country with any money to take it off their hands and make them a profit, surely?
Read the other day that the banks and government will do everything to keep the prices going up as if you remove the figures tied up in house sales and renovation work, the economy is still deep in recession.
I feel it has to spiral downwards at some point BUT I said this 15 years ago when the shithouse tower block Putney 4 bed flat we rented got sold for £300K. Probably worth 3 times that now.
even if it doesn't increase in value, it'll hold around the same. look at the last few years, we had the worst recession in living memory and most of the rest of the country ground to a halt, but prices barely dipped in London. this makes it incredibly appealing to those from overseas, particularly from the trouble-stricken regions of the planet.
The "overseas investors" angle does seem to be worked a little too hard by some parties, mind. They principally look to invest in prime property, usually central London commercial real estate, but moreso in the last few years into residential. But even there, it's still central London principally. It's unlikely they're hoovering up new developments in Barking.
But that obviously doesn't change the massive negative externalities of the city core becoming a fenced off private estate, nor the slow creep of that central area outwards.
There probably will be a point where, in London, there'll be this slowing down of the market based upon the ratio between average monthly repayment on a 90% LTV mortgage and average wage. The thing at the moment is - there are lots of people out there who can get, I don't know, £50k off their parents to smash into London property. Combine that with their savings and you're looking at a big deposit and a healthy monthly repayment. Even if you earn ~£30k.
Sooner or later, even if your parents can give you, I don't know, £70k to invest in London property - the mortgage payments will eventually get too high even at 90% LTV for it to be sensible, because the disconnection between median wage and median mortgage payment becomes simply too much to sustain the market. You'll see a levelling out, not a crash I think.
I also think I'm right in thinking that (in relation to average wages) property in London is still `cheaper` in comparison with many other major European cities (Paris, Berlin, Amsterdam etc.) Which is one reason why more people rent in those cities (that and the laws/organisation are more equitable etc. etc.)
Might be wrong on that last point, but I'm pretty sure that `this is all happening` because London property has been, comparitively, pretty cheap since the 2nd World War. Makes sense when you think about the New Towns/slum clearances of the 50s etc. leaving a lot of empty properties in London. Happy to be proved wrong mind.
(is that how it's done?)
Oh well, it's there for anyone to chew over if they so wish.
FWIW, I largely agree with what he's saying, which I never thought I'd say about an Alex Proud article. London really is a different country when it comes to property prices, and it's completely out of control.
Was talking to a good friend yesterday who's a very shrewd investor. He and a friend were ready to receive the deed on a property in Queen's Park when a Chinese investor came in at the last minute and gazumped them by £15k, and the ability to pay the whole thing straight off the bat in cash.
At the same time he's got another estate agent telling him that he's got people queuing up to pay "anything you want" on a property he's got a stake in in Kensington. Literally pluck a figure out of the air, it's irrelevant, they're just desperate for a property on that particular street.
i.e it's about 5 years late.
Eventually all these cool kids will go elsewhere.
London has had its ups and down. It bounces back. But when it's up it great for being a cultural epicentre people form everywhere can converge. It's rare to find that happening elsewhere when non London scenes take off.
"Shoreditch may be annoying as a hipster Mecca, but it’ll much worse in five years’ time when it’s a rich ghetto full of bankers who think they’ve discovered somewhere edgy."
Definitely his least objectionable article on London, tbf
Although, again, it's not just `A London thing` - the middle classes have been ruining everything, everywhere for the last 20 years.
And I'm definitely one of them. As Helen Lewis says: half victim; half accomplice. Just like everybody else.
the man who put out an email to promoters asking for "someone who is in with the Essex wealthy crowd who come on Saturdays"
But his observations regarding the demographic shifts in London seem reasonably accurate here.
He still makes loads of money out of it mind.
he looks like a man who knows where the cool kids are
is whilst I agree, the guy himself is clearly from a rich family and has no idea what it's like to be poor and young in London.
"Back then we all lived in central London, because we all could." NO YOU COULD MATE
"It was normal to leave university and get a flat with your mates in Marylebone or Maida Vale or Primrose Hill or Notting Hill." NO IT WASN'T. I KNOW NO-ONE WHO COULD DO THIS.
He also sounds like a complete trouser snake talking about edgy clubs in Camden. The Underworld and the Barfly and Dublin Castle - Edgy? Twonk.
But still, the general thrust is correct.
his opinion can safely be ignored I think
I get that everyone has a bit of civic pride, but with London it's the people who are from somewhere else that get most excited in threads like this and discussions elsewhere, so that can't be too much of a factor.
I think I would have probably been a bit like that maybe, hmm, 4-5 years ago or so. As in, just didn't really accept that London being really fun in your 20s would turn into London being really impractical and unfulfilling in your 30s. But it does. (cue people in their 30s lining up to prove me wrong - you are the exception that proves the rule).
Maybe that's why - everyone know's deep down that they're going to move out to zone 4/5 or some other smaller town altogether and in doing so will be accepting defeat of their previous self, who was so scornful of the people they went to school with who never left their hometown and of middle aged people flooding the tubes from their commuter trains on Monday mornings.
Deep down you know that's where you're headed and you just can't handle it.
it seems to be pretty emotive for a lot of people who don't live there, too?
On here at least I think it feeds on itself - the amount of london chat is just as much propped up by the bitching of some non-LMErs, which provokes some LMErs, which etc etc etc...
People having a chip on their shoulder about London being better. I've also been in that position, when living in the north all of my friends kept moving to London. Got well irked by it/
there's nae much work in my industry outside of this city though. sigh.
about anything that isn't high praise for it, but it's definitely emotive for me in the sense that it is my home. I was born here, educated here, I work here, all my friends and the vast majority of my family are here, the places I've formed attachments to are all here ... but it's going to be completely impossible for me stay here in the long term.
I couldn't give a shit if someone else doesn't like how London smells, but it is gutting to think I won't be able to raise my own children here.
Although we're fortunate enough to have just about scraped enough together to hopefully buy a flat on the edge of Zone 3 which will mean we have a chance of raising kids here, should we be fortunate enough to have them.
Can't think of a better place to raise kids than London myself.
less polluted, loads of green space and with better schools?
`Cheaper` - fair enough.
`Less polluted` - fair enough.
`Loads of green space` - there's plenty of green space in London.
`Better schools` - London's got some excellent schools and some terrible schools. Just like everywhere else.
a bus and the tube to get to a tiny park or woods that are full of dead bodies, drugs and sex offenders.
gotta fill my days somehow
Speaking of which ^ that definitely belongs in the `stuff people don't say any more` thread. Used to hear it all the time, now no fucker says it.
in the cartoon. Always thought I got up pretty early, but then I realised I liked sleeping in.
you're unusually feisty today
I'm no needlessly_defensive when it comes to the place, and I'm pretty sad about the inevitability of having to move back there either next year or the year after, but come on. London's got arguably some of the best urban and suburban greenspaces in the world. The various squares that dot the older parts of the city, across the West End, Islington, Camden, Pimlico etc are the pinnacle of classic 19th century urban design, the Royal Parks, while inevitably crammed with tourists, are generally lovely, and if you want something a bit less manicured within zone 2 you've got Hampstead Heath and Parliament Hill. Oh, and they're also all really well served by public transport.
a park isn't the outdoors though is it? it's just a big garden
95% of the British landscape is, in some form, styled towards human needs and wants. the countryside is as much a created environment as the city.
no it's not
except it's not.
haven't you ever heard of farms
where do you live???
I'm saying it's as much of a constructed and managed environment as a town. It is not The Great Outdoors of romantic myth.
could you type that a little louder please
better burger with fresh locally sourced ingredients, you lazy, spoiled London yuppie
famous amongst the rough ramblers for its country walks.
You gonna talk up its award winning beaches/surf next?
it doesn't all look like zone 1
not to care so much about london now. easier just to get on with it. might move again soon and move in with randoms for something different at least. feeling better about the place a bit.
that bits of london now follow the lifecycle of a 'generation Y' ((c) the guardian) big society member.
Middle class, ambitious big society members move into a poor area whose the original inhabitants are motivated by the Life's Truths (neccessity, grinding monotony, resignation).
After a year or two the new big society members bring a demand for increased consumer choice and cool cafes and shops open up. For a while there's a happy medium where the big society members have a sense of civic pride because they brought a byron burgers to wherever, and the original inhabitants finally feel like the big society has acknowledged them.
Then after a while the big society members get a bit sick of the original inhabitants so they have to go. By this point the area is no longer considered cool.
Come middle age the big society members split into three groups: the cultural elite who stay there because they just couldn't live anywhere but london, the financial/business elite who move to the home counties, and the big society failures who suddenly find themselves motivated by the same things that first motivated the original inhabitants they spurned (pret sandwich being highlight of day, watching itv)
At this point the area is just a big tesco.
Not compete drivel, but mostly drivelous.
i think you should feel bad for abandoning the places that nurtured you as children and made you the people you are today. all to pretend to be interesting. the shame. my hometown has no young people to take it out of poverty cause all the nerds moved to london. how could you all do this? all the pubs in towns are better anyway. certainly more authentic. local brews, cask ale, deer heads, old people, sandwiches and a roast, tat on the walls, paintings of dogs, walks in the country, village fetes, slurry, farmers markets, pagan traditions, jam.
Some of us are from places like Reading.
It's not that bad, and the surrounding area is pretty splendid.
Always saddens me to see your further metamorphosis to a LME wanker :'(
I was being slightly hyperbolic for comic effect. I know it isn't that bad, could happily live in the uni area or somewhere like Caversham one day if I have a family and they completely rebuild the IDR.
this new 50 minutes from Twyford to East london train sounds interesting as well. I will always have a soft spot for Twyford. Nice pubs, Indian restaurants and countryside.
I weep at the fact I wasted NINE years of my adult life there. Was a mistake.
and was actually surprised at how much they had going on there tbf.
I think the main reason it suffers is that it's 20 minutes on the train to London, so everyone is used to just going there?
It's was still a massive bummer for me when I lived there: all my mates from uni eventually left, hardly any gigs, no galleries / museums / club nights, I don't have a car so couldn't make much use of the "nice" surroundings. I was in London pretty much every weekend just for something to do :/
I would definitely agree that it is stunted due to its proximity to LDN though.
I live a little way out in a very charming area and own a car so my experience is obviously going to be very different! x
I've been putting on DIY gigs in Reading with a bunch of friends for the past 6 years or so. All weird/strange/interesting music. Used to be a quite a few other promoters doing similar stuff on a regular basis but admittedly, there are a lot fewer gigs than there used to be.
South Street has consistently put on good stuff over the last 10 years. There are some decent regular DJ nights (Mondo Fuzz, The Trip, Tracks and Grooves) happening at Milk and Global too. Again these nights have been happening regularly for years.
Caught a bit of it and it seemed quite interesting, gonna fish it out on iplayer later. It imagined (from what I can tell) that the UK had split up into Scotland, Wales, NI, England and London. And I think it was saying that Boris had become some kind of dictator? Dunno. Anyway it wasn't all hyperbole like that, some interesting musings on where things are headed and what it means for London, its people and the rest of the country.
although the housing situation here does bother me a bit, not just personally but because I can see situations like this becoming far more common.
http://www.newleftproject.org/index.php/site/article_comments/a_compulsory_purchase_for_london (fuck 1 Hyde Park)
http://www.standard.co.uk/lifestyle/london-life/tottenham-in-1-billion-turnaround-9214361.html (will probably be watered down considerably)
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/apr/06/margaret-thatcher-britains-obsession-property-right-to-buy (think he's on the mark with a lot of this)
there's also an exhibition going on about new high rise developments that has just opened http://www.urbanrealm.com/diary/360/London%27s_Growing..._Up%21.html
Showing areas of London that have changed through the years. Places like Stretham were more bustling than Chelsea but the local government went out of their way to bring it down, whereas places like Deptford had great community spirit and were green lit for Utopian social housing projects that sadly, in hindsight, proved to be the total opposite.
The programme said the entire housing crisis stems from the change in attitude in the 70s. Back then a house would generally be occupied by 2 or 3 generations of the same family with the eldest on the ground floor and the kids in the loft. As people died and were born , you all moved down a floor. But then society changed and we all wanted our own places, independent of our families and the housing stick in the country essentially halved within a decade. It made the point that we we're now just seeing a return to those days...
In Spain/Italy it is still common for 3 generations of the same family to live in the family home. It's why countries like Spain and Germany are able to, in some places, have 25% unemployment and it not be the issue it'd be here - family units support each other more; not the government/welfare state.
But in the UK living with your parents is still seen as weird. Not sure why that's the pervasive culture but it's changing now that's for sure. In fact, all of my life planning is built around being able to look after my parents in my house in old age. If they need it.
I forgot how exhausting it can be. It made me feel like a proper yokel.
to ever live in london. i would just never leave the house.
it's fine. it's not oxford. not sure what i'm doing to be honest
replaced with (acid?) RAIN
and it's honestly fine.
Will update though.
I'm getting more work done by not reading this than I have done in ages.
JUST TO LET YOU KNOW I'M NOT READING THIS OR INTERESTED AT ALL
is this a response template issued to all mods?
Any native London on this forum?
So I never had to make any conscious weighing of the pros and cons. London is my home, always has been, likely to always be.
I suppose I do do that when I consider living else where. Whatever any city in the UK had going for it, it won't be London and therefore I won't move.
Having said that, a large part of why that's the case is because my friends and family pretty much all live here. I would be a closer call to make if they all lived in Manchester/Bath/Glasgow etc.
6 1/2 years here and i wouldn't swap a day of it for living somewhere else in the UK
People trying to sell London to Londoners. Example:
It's got this whole "yeah London isn't it great, yeah?" vibe. I've lived here since I was 2. I don't need it to be carved up and served to me by a Russian oligarch like some over enthusiastic, gossip mag version of Time Out.
To me it feel a bit like 2:45am, people are starting to leave the party and the three guys whose house it is are convincing everyone that the night is just getting going and they're all having a great time.
Those who left and want to feel like they made the right choice.
Those whose stayed and want to feel like their friends who left made the wrong one.
What is obviously apparent is that If you want to move to London the that is the right choice for you. If you want to a stay then that's fine too.
Few in this thread (perhaps as good a sample as any?) appear to be saying that they moved to London and fucking hated it. Few are saying they regret staying in the place they grew up.
There is no right or wrong. Different strokes etc.
but I'm constant in a state of being a bit torn between living here and elsewhere. As time goes on, it'll be harder to leave what with friends etc here.
but I'm not 100% positive about it all too.
So I rarely consider what makes London shit. What would be the point?
Manchester has no appeal to me. Brighton, maybe but there is sod all work there.
It's London or Berlin for me. I need to be in a city for my work, not very often you find webmaster roles in smaller companies.
I've actually had people I've met say to me "so when did you move to London?"
It's kinda annoying.
Only two things could take me away.
1) the love of an amazing woman.
2) some hella awesome job (this definitely won't happen)
LEAVING THE COUNTRY IN JUNE FOR A FEW YEARS
TAKE THAT UP YOUR SHITTER
is that, once you get down to it, it's like just a load of things you can buy? And things are just like.. Y'know..
When Scotland votes for independence I'm gonna move to London!
See you in sept LME! :)
Prolly best to flit in August, to be on the safe side.
august it is suckers
yet know, inevitably, I'll probably end up in that smoggy, lonely land of misery.