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It's all finally got too much for Sean...
they are utter scum tbf
I can't get Future Island tickets anywhere. They're my last best hope. Like Obi-Wan.
so fuck that.
I was just trying to help moker
I WAS JUST TRYING TO HELP MOKER
It’s the hunter’s wellies brigade, it’s the terrible toilets and grass that’s been turned into mud by urine. It’s the ludicrously expensive shit lager and terrible, terrible food. It’s the same stalls full of new age shite, it’s the inability to sit down, the miles of massive walks from stage to stage or from the car park to perimeter. It’s the shit sound, the bad weather, the drunk twats, the shitting in a fucking box, the getting up early the getting no sleep. I’ve always found festivals to be utter bobbins of the highest degree. I know I’m alone in this fact but who cares.
end of the road isn't like that at all
what if the government made it illegal to sell a ticket over face value?
would that work or just end up fucking people over?
like they currently do with football tickets - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ticket_resale#United_Kingdom
any tickets you didn't want should just be returned to the venue who could then resell at face value
I can't remember his answer in much detail, but it was basically that it would be a restriction of freedom of people to trade if they banned selling tickets over face value. The ban on re-sale of football tickets is purely driven by fan behaviour and the need to control where fans of each team are in a stadium.
Ultimately, there's an argument to say that although it's a completely scummy thing to do, if there is a market for it there is no logical reason to restrict it. Not saying by any means that I subscribe to that view, but I can see the argument.
so much ire at touts
so little ire at people who buy from touts
yeah, I guess people paying £1000 for a beyonce ticket are dickheads anyway. but then the problem is making sure real people have first refusal on tickets before scalpers eventually get them. at the moment it seems like they don't stand a chance of getting tickets any other way.
I agree with you in principle but how do you make a workable system to distinguish between touts and 'real people'?
withholding tickets or funnelling tickets straight to places like viagogo in the first place i'd guess
but I think that is a slightly different argument. Get rid of that and you still have a basic tout problem.
e-tickets that have a unique barcode?
ID checks with tickets at the barriers?
if I can't make a show that I have tickets for, I'd want to be able to give the ticket to my sister so that it doesn't go to waste.
Contact the venue, explain. Get a ticket re-printed with her name on
I don't see why other venues can't do the same
might as well hang around in an airport for yer kicks.
when you've got venue/rock steady staff making minimum wage who couldn't give a fuck if you're the person named on the ticket or not?
I think not.
But ID checks could be done fairly easily
Especially at high profile gigs like these Kate Bush ones
i would honestly rather not go to something than buy from a tout
the response instead was the industry got into the re-selling market
slowest of slow claps
DiS will be #11 most influential music blog next year!
the buyers of the tickets also need to provide ID when entering the venue, so I'm quite interested in how the touts are planning to resell them.
I did go to take some up an alley once and a fit girl was wanking off a tout for what I presume was Queens of the stone age tickets. They were bartering over whether it was 2 or 3 she would get mid stroke
I was a Teenage Hand Model
and the price (or purchasers) thereof.
the snaffling and suppression of legitimate first time sales, however.
but even then, i'm meh about it and pretty much subscribe to the cat race theory.
ultimately, the whole jacked up prices thing only exists because knobheads with more money than sense are prepared to pay to sustain it. see also: just about everything else in the world.
I've seen many touts operating as cartels, and I've also seen groups of touts kicking the shit out of people for daring to sell an unexpected spare ticket for face value outside of a venue.
Like with estate agents, there's a reason why you never find one who isn't a nasty piece of work.
is obviously wrong.
can't recall ever seeing an estate agent kicking the shit out of someone.
not sure what your basic point is here.
I wrote "and the price (or purchasers) thereof" instead of "and the price (or purchasers or sellers) thereof" for a reason.
Had a gloriously circular argument with him once:
HIM: ...well all I'm doing is basic economics ennit. People are willing to pay that price - I give 'em the tickets at that price. Just the market mate.
ME: Yeah but it's not is it because you're distorting the market by lessening the supply of tickets for people in the first place.
HIM: Yeah but people are happy to pay more for tickets so I give 'em to 'em at that price.
ME: Yeah but you're artificially pushing the price up by limiting the supply in the first place.
HIM: Nah I ain't - just giving people the tickets they want at the prices they're willing to pay for them.
ME: Not really though. People HAVE to pay those prices because you've hoovered the tickets up at the price they would have preferred to pay
HIM: Nah mate, I'm providing a service to the public. The ticket companies are the ones making all the money not me.
Went on for about half hour this. Hilarious.
Unless he is giving back a percentage of the profit he is making to the ticket companies, he is massively incorrect
get a percentage cut of the resale value of tickets they've already sold?
who take a cut of every marked-up sale.
That that's incorrect, but sure. They have some primary suppliers for bigger events
That was the point.
the mate in question defended himself by saying that the ticket companies are making all the profit. If he's selling tickets at a value higher than the price they were initially sold at it's him who is making a profit not the ticket companies.
And I don't think he should.
Although "all" could very easily mean "the vast majority" in a colloquial conversation such as the one you cite.
Tell your mate to be less couched in his use of language.
people don't have to pay those prices. But they do. "The price they would have preferred to pay" is an irrelevance.
There's more to it than just `haha it's ALL the fault of people who pay the prices`. Notwithstanding the inconsistencies of this line of thinking in line with your other thoughts on how big companies behave and how they exploit people (which I've seen you kick off about on here before).
The market for ticket touts is one that is created by one thing and one thing only - an event selling out/tickets ceasing to be available from the `official sellers`. It is only then that a market for touting exists. Touts actively remove the original ticket supply, meaning they actually work to create the market they need. It doesn't judge magically appear, meaning the usual rules of supply and demand (i.e. tickets have sold out therefore they're worth more) don't apply as organically.
The correct answer is that both touts and purchasers contribute to the problem in equal measure. Where you stand morally on these two groups of people is another matter entirely but for you to lay the blame ENTIRELY at the feet of the purchasers isn't accurate. And, again, inconsistent with your other views on macroeconomic phenomena whereby large companies exploit consumers...
Have you invited a new group of mates to hang about on DiS recently and are acting like the big man in this thread to impress them or something?
But do they? Really? And if so, so what?
The band, the fans, the ticket companies, the venue. Everyone. Even the sponsors. Even Carling.
Everyone loses. But you know this.
...who, on occasion, are deserving of protection.
Not sure why TheWza deviates from this line of thought to not include people who buy gig tickets. Perhaps a gig-goer called him names once or something.
than usual, GeOff. If your argument is robust, there's no need to let yourself down like that.
I'm frustrated by your tone, your inaccurate assessment of the impact of touting and the fact your views are inconsistent with TheWza brand. That and the fact I think you're on the wind up a bit, so I'm responding in kind.
But fair point.
who buy up property to restrict the market supply and drive up prices.
If you do it with shares on the stock market it's illegal.
and property is a lazy (and wrong) analogy, too.
but his point about (BBC-stoked) hype over festivals, etc, and the promoters predictably wanting their piece of the action etc is fair.
and if I did, I think I would blame the popularity of the band rather than touts buying up a load of them. At least then I would have a hope of buying one if I wanted to pay top dollar rather than hoping someone returns it face value.
but it saddens me that I have come to terms with not seeing Daft Punk if/when they tour because of bloody touts.
My wife bought her ticket for Glasto 92 by posting a cheque. Which I find quite cute.
*because people are willing to pay more than you are to see Daft Punk.
My approach absolves people of personal responsibility, your approach allows people to be exploited. Whatever.
I'm the oblivious liberal-minded cocaine using hypocrite, you're a big tobacco lobbying group.
It's still a problem that needs addressing anyway.
I'd rather not go than give a tout £1 over face value. but I'm a right dickhead.
fuck them. maximise their losses. fucking pricks
I'm also tight. As soon as a gig is sold out, then I'm not going (aside from some kind of mate of a mate of a mate guest list attempt)
Really wanted to go and see a gig recently. It had sold out. I went to the venue on the night and asked a tout how much he wanted for a ticket. He was quoting four times the face value. I said nah, but I'd check back later, when the gig was underway. Went back. He was prepared to drop his price by a tenner, down to sixty quid. I chuckled at his hopefulness and went and had a few pints in the pub instead.
and that's just to think "it's just a gig". Once you stop being concerned by your mates going, and some spanner on the radio saying how it's the gig of the year, it's just a gig.
Like the hundreds you've been to before.
they know what they're doing though.
they'd rather eight tickets went unsold but hook some guy in willing to pay 10x the price for one than sell every ticket
it's something for the talent/provider to worry about.
Do they let atmosphere levels slip, or do they do something about it at the level they're able to (i.e. by not allowing, or "allegedly" actively participating the bulk selling of tix to touts)?
because the frostbite medicine has been bought up by bots as soon as it went on sale and they have to give some dude a handjob in an alley just to save their big toe
pretty grim facebook posting.
he's using exaggeration to illustrate his discontent. Really no point in wasting your time being outraged.
can't believe theo was actually reigning him back this whole time
it makes me so angry.
this is what i'd do if i won the euromillions. i'd set up a not for profit touting business, complete with security team to buy every ticket for every event happening that i could and then redistribute the tickets for face value to people that were actually going to go to the gig. that is now my dream
Have fun selling tickets for Pendulum at Nuremberg.
Know if that pendulum reference means something or is just an example
But yes, I do want to do that.
even if you'd have got it, I can't guarantee it was funny.
Have sold to touts outside gigs before.
Have sold to people wanting to go to the gig outside gigs before.
Not sure if I have a point to make here.
He was selling tickets to the Wedding Present and it hadn't sold out, so was offering his multiple spares for the same price as the venue was selling them OTD.
He couldn't grasp that I'd rather pay the same amount on the door, as that way (some of) my money would be going towards the band/venue/promoter rather than lining his pockets. He called me a cunt.
seems like that kind of guy
He didn't like that.
he get like that when he's had too much apple pie
mate and I were queuing to get into Brixton Academy to see No Doubt play. Mate asks tout how much he was selling a ticket for, despite it being obvious we both had tickets as we were just about to enter the venue. Tout replies "do you want a fight". Mate genuinely misheard and said "twenty five?". Tout then proceeds to grab my mate and frogmarch him to the back of the queue so he had to queue up all over again. Nobody let my mate push back into the queue.
Conclusion: No Doubt fans are as bad as touts.
Don't Speak was one of their songs.
everyday hurts a little more!
Laughing at my desk at this story.
1. When tickets are released, they start out at a ludicrously inflated price.
2. Some method by which you get refunded the difference if you are a genuine gig-goer, or the price gradually comes down, or something. This bit needs work, I'll admit.
Any bots hoovering them up would end up with a massive cost. And any idiots who want to pay massively over the odds to make sure they go still can.
Someone turn this into a coherent plan, I'm sure its in there somewhere.
work to defeat bots? If not, what's the point in them?
where it asks you a question about the band.
the gig tickets and cartels and fairness etc, as if they're on the same level as medicine or energy need to take a look at themselves.
Kid Rock’s four-part solution: flood the market with lots of shows to make sure that even at the low price of $20, there are still tickets available; have a small number of super-expensive tickets near the front; allocate the very best seats by lottery to people who bought the cheap tickets; and enforce it all with paperless tickets and an ID check to prevent resale.
things like middle lane crawlers in the list of things that drive other people insane, but I don't really give a shit about.
everyone is getting angry over Kate Bush tickets ending up in the hands of scalpers, but i've seen just one person (and he's the worst person) angry over the fact that the ticket prices were insanely gouging in the first place.
good one, team!
I don't actually think that they were.
£50 or £60 for three hours of live music from a performer who hasn't toured in a generation, in a non-arena venue, isn't that unreasonable, given how much people pay to go to other gigs, or concerts, or films or plays.
look at Radiohead
didn't feel extortionate, given how good they were and the attention to detail and stageshow.
It's like with the Bjork shows a few years ago at the Apollo. At the time it was the most I'd ever paid for a ticket, at £45, but afterwards I walked out and thought, you know what? I'd have happily paid double to see that.
given the fact that tickets sold out means they were under-priced
I've paid £70 to see Bruce Springsteen and £55 to see Neil Young previously.
But I was also really aware that was a LOT of money and I was really lucky to be able to go, and I imagine a lot of people would've wanted to go but couldn't afford that level of pricing.
I've had people walk away when I tell them that no, we can't reduce an £8 ticket down to £5.
£60-70 can be a week's rent or food money for some people, and invariably it's the artists who need the money the least who are charging the most.
I appreciate these shows are "bigger" in terms of production, and I understand that big artists have always charged more, but it's become utterly runaway in the last few years. Surely you can appreciate that? Kate Bush and Bruce Springsteen charge these figures because they can, but now they're charging 8x the £8 you've given. Fifteen years ago it would've been closer to 4x. It's only live music, of course, but speaking personally the anti-touting arguments fall on ideas of equity and that your access to live music shouldn't be dictated by your ability to pay over the odds, and I consider the runaway price inflation of these "heritage" act shows to fall largely into the same category.
putting together a run of shows like this or a stadium tour.
I think people forget the leaps that have taken place in terms of presentation and sound on big headline shows since the early 00s.
The days when a large backdrop and a few big cabs would cut it are long gone.
touring costs/elaborate stage shows are one thing, but they can only account for so much of the ticket price for the grand old dames of showbiz. The rest is greed/taking advantage of what the market will allow them to charge (delete as appropriate).
But also fuck ticket touts, they contribute nothing. They frequently threaten people outside venues if they dare to try and arrange a face value sale without involving them, and generally make the outside of venues even more grim and unappealing. If they didn't exist, sites like Scarlet Mist would be the norm and people would be able to exchange, buy and sell tickets for reasonable amounts. Tickets would I'm sure still change hands for big money for special events but if people were limited in how many they could buy then it wouldn't be huge scale profiteering, and anyone who did slap down £1000 would only have themselves to blame.
and they were rear standing room.
Half decent tickets were pushing 3 figures.
can sell kate bush performances for whatever she wants to charge. why would anyone be angry about that?
just not in this thread, because its a thread about touts you donut.
once these Kate Bush gigs have happened, what percentage of tickets were bought from a tout. Think it may be a lot lower than what we've been led to believe. No idea how one would obtain these statistics however.
Using Kate Bush as an example, I know various people who applied for tickets and they all got something. Prices varied. But they were uberfans who were hitting the computer screens the instant the tickets went on sale.
Where touts mainly come into play is selling to people who vaguely fancy going to see Kate Bush, but only think about it much nearer to the date of the concert.
In many respects it's like tickets to a top football match. The days of being able to roll up on the day are long gone. If you really care a lot, you buy tickets the moment they go on sale, otherwise you go to touts who bought tickets that you were too idle or unaware to.
they would have sold out anyway.
When they had to call to buy tickets and stand out in the rain, they seemed pretty harmless and occupied the same area as people selling bootleg t-shirts outside.
That rich people should just be able to do whatever they want on a whim. Need to keep 20% of gig tickets back so little Esmerelda can flash Daddy's credit card when she decides she's like really into Kate Bush yah between now and September
For artificially suppressing supply by not playing live for decades.
Pretty ruthless stuff.
Just burn them on stakes over their piles of ill gained cash.
I think the problem is overstated. There will be a handful of people panicking and willing to pay ridiculous sums but not many so over time the prices will fall, close to the event the opportunists will be desperate to get rid of the tickets at a normal price. On balance I'm glad touts exist