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Bowie and the Independence debate
Why is Bowie getting so much crap for having an opinion about Scottish independence? All he did was say that he would prefer Scotland to stay as part of the UK. The people who are 100% pro-independence are so blinkered and go apeshit whenever anyone says anything negative regarding independence.
WHAT RIGHT DOES HE HAVE
no wait I don't care
yeah i don't get it
not really news is it?
Because apparently you can't have a view of anywhere or anything
that you're not directly involved in.
Got a view on the middle east but live in England? FUCK OFF.
Got a view on the Iraq war but aren't an Iraqi? FUCK OFF.
Got a view on a country leaving a union that directly affects your country, so you make a comment about it? STILL FUCK OFF
Yeah, basically I agree. They're moronic to get angry.
even that doesn't make sense
he's british, it's a british issue.
?
has anyone actually got angry?
perhaps Moker thinks Scottish people sound angry all the time?
My entire family is Scottish
My thinly veiled is Scottish. I have several good friends who are Scottish.
THEY ARE ANGRY ALL THE TIME.
No joking, but one of my Scottish mates was talking about the rage on his Facebook about what Bowie said. Bit silly really.
It's just our natural state of being
The coldness scrunches up our faces.
Would they have been more or less ragey do you think
if he'd said "Scotland, Fuck off back where you came from"?
Good point!
The Scots. You can't please them. They WANT to be miserable.
just moker by the looks of things
^both great responses
:D
Brian Cox was a bit angry about it on 5Live last night.
Apparently he's allowed to get angry about it because he's Scottish and involved with Dundee University, despite spending the majority of each year on the other side of the world.
BASTART
isn't it because he lives in NYC?
Probably the general thrust of the argument
Still doesn't make sense
I don't disagree
but really it's not a whole lot different to constant wisecracks over the years about Sean Connery being for independence whilst being a tax exile.
yous have to stick out those tory cunts
anyway, i'm away off to another country ciao
Thus proving moker's point?
http://drownedinsound.com/community/boards/social/4444191#r7961556
They're going to vote No anyway
aren't they?
mmmm...wouldn't be so sure
We'll see.
The polls seem to have narrowed very slightly since the white paper, but there's no real evidence to show what effect Cameron/Osborne's interventions have had yet; there's been a single poll since which on the face of it shows a 10 point swing towards the Yes camp (still with having a statistically significant lead), but it's impossible to draw conclusions as the polling company changed methodolgy between polls and in anycase a single poll can always be an outlier (see PanelBase's poll for the SNP last year that showed a 1 point lead for Yes when all their others are an 8/9 point lead for No).
The next few polls will be interesting.
They're going to vote No by miles...
why's moker replied to his own thread like this?
he's done himself really
he'll be disappointed with that
because he's scottish which makes him
MENTAL ANGRY.
I think we're going to vote
*wavey hand gesture*
...
https://ci5.googleusercontent.com/proxy/xpixIyGOuTogGk2_N_9nKvs-wdH3icTLPYTmQ7epOXG0w-tSjuX9v_WOd-vzremJUdpPFA1y9SjhwpO1RkzlHusQciK5nINNyv-ooTOzRvtJRMqaUwEe4AjKzFifFmgRukCgXQCPlqcKF0WcXAZlr_8okvs=s0-d-e1-ft#http://24.media.tumblr.com/f1a778d2f612b3c2cb3bb0d2bb6f8f1a/tumblr_mljhqgfNpj1s9c682o1_500.jpg
or...
https://24.media.tumblr.com/7ddba57bbd32f6fff1202f9e1af68a97/tumblr_n1cflegrMi1qgbppwo1_500.jpg
That cunt should stick to singing about space
Aye, the bam should fuck off back ta Mars
http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/wales-appeals-for-scotland-to-stay-in-the-uk-2014022183877
So he's an Englishman living in NY
Does that mean he's not allowed an opinion on the debate?!
The folk that get angry with this sort of thing are folk who go looking for stuff to be angry about. Absolute shower of cunts!
Wrong singer, mate.
:D
he is an alien though
legal tho
can't decide if this a really clever or stupid post
I'm still half cut from
Ha!
Last night, make of that what you will
ohhhh the GFF party!
how was it?!
Aye it was good fun
It was down at the central hotel this year. Lots of drink and good looking people. We ended up in sleazys, I so badly cannot be arsed going into work now. Just want a Bloody Mary and the papers
and the film?
if you can remember?
Loved it
Brilliant cast, sharp script, looked gorgeous. Very wes andersony
Thanks for making me Google 'GFF party' at work
It's gonna be an awkward Monday morning
Would have been funnier if he'd said "Scotland, fuck off" via the medium of Kate Moss
Getting upset about essentially saying "we like you, please don't go" is a bit special
still no evidence anyone other than Moker has actually been upset by this
With respect
allow me to dissect my strawman in peace
Once more, I've been completely misunderstood
I'm not angry about it. I'm not even angry or bothered about other Scottish people being angry about it.
I'm simply saying I think it's stupid to be angry about it and that it appears lots of people are as one of my Scottish friends said his Facebook is full of people raging.
All clear? Great stuff.
you realise the more you get wound up by that
the funnier this is right
don't think anyone is getting angry or saying he shouldn't be allowed an opinion. just pointing out the hypocrisy.
like with sean connery.
I think it's different with Connery
Bowies just an Englishman throwing in his opinion.
Conneys Scottish and has campaigned with salmond and makes a big deal about it.
Is he moving back if we go independent?! Is he fuck. Connery can fucking do one
^ Exactly this.
"Bowies just an Englishman throwing in his opinion."
Yeah, he has an opinion on his country being affected by a union split.
He's got every right to "throw in his opinion".
Pretty sure you're arguing with someone that agrees with you
Classic Moker misfire. Must be the fiery Scottish temper.
I'm English
you treacherous yanky.
I'm not arguing anyway. Literally, my view on the whole thing is give Scotland independence if they want it. If not, that's cool too.
^ classic MacMoker
....but only if they use their own currency and take their share of the bloody national debt
"give Scotland independence"
Given? By whom?
Santa
but only if they've been good.
not really 'just an englishman throwing in his opinion' is he though?
He doesn't want any ch-ch-ch-ch-changes.
Think its mostly the snidey way he added it on as an afterthought
I imagine he thought it would be taken as a bit of understated tenderness but it comes across more as a slight.
I think he thought everyone would say "oh the great ethereal david bowie has taken a break from being a crazy space man genius and partying with paul mccartney to touch on a real world issue, I'm so happy that he cares" when really it just seems disinterested and a bit arrogant (like his whole musical output).
Best regards,
Definitely Irked, of Glasgow
I think it was the use of his platform at the BRITS
that made it a wee bit ODD.
Of course as a British person (i presume he stil has GB citizenship) he has every right to have a view and to express it.It was just a bit random and not sure I've ever been aware of bowie having any particular attachment to scotland before (or indeed england, since he's been an englishman in new york for, what, 30, 40 years now?)
Anyway, I'm sure it came fomr a good place. It was just a bit unexpected. and who doens't love a bit of BRITs controversy
(me, actually.)
I'm almost certainly voting Yes now btw
Even as a fairly right wing (for Scotland, anyway) person. I think it's democratically irresponsible to vote any other way. The scottish peopel simply are not represented at westminster. the Scottish vote is 100% non conservative (in terms of returning no conservative seats) and get they still get a conservative coalition government.
Fuck knows how it will work in practice, but at an intellectual level, I have to vote Yes.
Do you think Salmond will resign if its a no decision...?
no
because he's still in the SFM, and thus represents Scotland for another two years, he just may take a bruising at the next election, but that's fine because it suggests democracy.
If I was in Scotland, I'd vote yes
but I know it'd be a little illogical. Who wouldn't want indpendence?! But the no currency thing, the debt thing, the EU non membership thing, the world standing as a tiny nation, rather than as the UK.
The main argument I hear over and over again from my SNP mates is about the Conservatives. Remember, we didn't vote them in either! Also, no-one can vote their way out of having to put up with shit politicians they didn't want or elect. So you might not have to put up with a Tory government anymore, but they'll be another bunch of twats in their place.
But like I said, I would vote yes. So I understand your decision.
I kinda agree with this but in addition there are other serious financial implications.
I used to work for one of the major finance conpanies in Edin and it was common knowledge (10 years ago) that if Scotland went fully independent, several of the major HOs would move south of the border. Stardard Life and Scottish Widdows and others leaving Scotland would make a big hole in employment and income.
This is why they went to retain Sterling.
I know of quite a few blue chip companies that'll move out of scotland should we go independent.
As a businessman, yeah that's right i said businessman i see nothing but a fucking nightmare for the scottish economy should we go independent.
Big fucking NO from me!
http://www.noodlepie.com/wp-content/uploads/2004/09/glasgowfns.jpg
is this who you're talking about?
:)
I'm all for a bit of national pride as expressed through food,
but blue chips sound disgusting and I'm not sure there'd be a market for them south of the border.
I've been delivering a number of lectures on this
throughout scotland for the last 3 months. None of the blue chips I have spoken to (which are the main FTSE and AIm floated organisatoins with presence in scotland) have indicated to me that they'll take action if it's a Yes vote. they'll simply adapt and while it might be a PITA, they are open to this. I'll invite you along to our next lecture- I think it's at the CCA in March. It should put your mind at rest. For clarity, my firm is entirely neutral on the outcome of the referendum, but what we are doing is working with scottish business to ensure that there is no hysterical kneekjerk of the type you mention. that there will be, if necessary, a smooth transition. that contracts will still stand and won't have to be renegotiated from scratchat every level. That complex finaincing and hedging arrrangements will be able to flow into a new model without collapsing. we will help the new government, with input fomr business, to work with westminster to secede from sterling if they follow through with their threat, and that we will assist a new government in its international (and, within that, european) negotations to establish soveriegnty and stability. There is no need for a mass exodus and fortunately most sensibly governed organisations are open to a calmer way of thinking about it. if ultimately it is not profitable for them to be here, then of course they'll go. THat rule stands regardless of whether it's a yes or a No. Those who run companies have a legal duty to tehir shareholders and the company as a whole to do what is in the companies' best inetrests, so actually they'd HAVE to go. But it will be up to the new government to, through its policies, make it an attrcative and lucrative place to do business. The cup is half full, Lo-Pan!
Hey PO, yeah that sounds good, gimme a shout closer the time.
CCA = Across the road from sleazys! ;)
DANGER DANGER
(pretty sure I'm barred from sleazy's now anyway after I whacked somebody who sat on fleur's stool.)
:)
I've been kicked out numerous times but never barred.
Alright, Chicken Licken.
I think we can reasonably replace "knowledge"with "tittle-tattle" and be closer to the truth.
(We're not doing mum jokes any more so the big hole open goal will go unused. Unlike your dad's knackered soilpipe).
Sure
but it was "tittle tattle" from a significant CEO.....not a round a fucking water cooler.
;)
Makes no difference whether it was an insignificant CEO or a significant data entry boy.
For the reasons PO states, mostly.
Once we finalise dates for the next series of lecture
I'll let you know as i think you'd find it interesting (and i'm sure you'd have good Qs for the panel.)
Cool.
(Note to self: Ask the panel if they're scared of a big hole?)
But PO didn't say that they wouldn't leave.
She said that they wouldn't leave straight away. And who honestly thinks that they would?
out of interest
how do you justify 'intellectually' and 'democratically' the position of other areas in the UK which the vote is more or less '100% non conservative'?
What you said isn't actually true- Scotland does have a tory http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dumfriesshire,_Clydesdale_and_Tweeddale_(UK_Parliament_constituency) there's also strong conservative support in the neighbouring constituency (>16,000 at last gen election). If you look at the electoral map, what you say is just as true of Yorkshire, the North West or the North East.
Scotland is a country within the UK.
Yorkshire, the North West or the North East are areas of the UK.
It's a significant difference.
but to me that's not that important
And to lots of people in Scotland, that's not important. I really don't see how Scotland being a stateless nation makes it any more or less 'democratic' to be part of the UK when you compare it to other similarly anti-tory places. Why does being a nation/country automatically make it undemocratic?
because its a recognized nationality
Rather than a region?
You're just repeating the same thing
Still don't know why it's any more or less democratic because Scotland is a 'nation' and not a 'region'.
If anything, devolution in Scotland allowing most social policy areas to be free from Tories (health, education) means it matters even less. People in Greater Manchester or Liverpool etc haven't voted Tory ever yet all of the policies affecting them are conservative. If Scotland goes, its even more likely that this will continue to happen. How is that any more 'democratic'?
What if the majority of Scots don't want the SNP's pro-business bourgeois nationalism? It would be really hilarious if Scotland voted Yes, the SNP came to power (and had to make huge cuts to public spending which is what i think will happen) and Labour won the UK general election in 2015.
I just think saying its 'democratically irresponsible' to vote No is an inherently contradictory thing to say. Fair enough if your reason for voting Yes is TO STOP THE TORIES. But my answer to the same problem is: create a UK wide labour movement.
Pretty much. Give or take.
And as soon as any other region of the government develops a movement for self government, that should be respected, nay, encouraged.
That includes Orkney, Shetland and Na h-Eileanan Siar. Media whisperings about independence movements within those regions are unfounded. The Scottish Government has positively engaged with them on recognition of the status of the three island groups in a new Scottish Constitutional Settlement, as well as how wave, tidal, wind and fishing resources could allow them to benefit more directly. If only Westminster could replace it's inherent antagonism with that kind of debate and negotiation.
I'm not a not a nationalist in the sense of being driven by patriotism or national identity. (I barely have any of the former, and not much more of the latter.) I'm not interested in a rejection of history shared with neighbours. I'm into the local democracy that independence could bring. And the way we use that representation within supranational (which need not be intergovernmental) bodies throughout the wider world.
Also, I don't buy into the anti-Tory thing as a basis for independence. It makes me wince when it's cited. The referendum isn't party political and it's a bit cheap to suggest that parties could/should be wiped out.
Independence is a process, not an event innit.
so you do accept that
the position in places like the North West of England is similar? The only difference is some people in Scotland want to be independent - there already is a movement for self government. If someone brings about a Yorkshire independence movement, you think it will be "undemocratic" not to support it? I find that kinda astounding tbh.
It's not astounding.
The people in Yorkshire think themselves as English/(British) much more than Scottish people think themselves as British. The desire to be independent is very weak.
This is largely down to history. Scotland was once independent with its own monarchy etc. The desire for independence is understandable. Yorkshire never has this motivation.
They are not driven by politics as central (and most local) government swings from left to right to left every 10 years or so....cant see any change to this pattern.
I am actually Scottish and live in Scotland
You're just making the same tautological argument that Severed and Wza etc made before.
The 'desire for independence is understandable' to you because Scotland is a stateless nation which several hundred years ago was an independent state. Yorkshire has a distinct cultural identity but has never been a 'nation' in the Westphalian sense.
You say you dont find my point about Yorkshire 'astounding' - so like, if there was a movement for Yorkshire independence, you would also think everyone in Yorkshire should support it too? Even if, in a referendum, the democratic will of the people in Yorkshire was to remain part of the UK, the mere fact that a movement for independence existed would make their democratic will somehow 'democratically irresponsible'.
Still nobody has been able to tell me why the situation in Scotland is any less democratic than the other examples.
p.s. your thing about central government just naturally and inexorably swinging from left to right every 10 years or so is just as ridiculous.
I am a Yorkshireman and have lived in Yorkshire Edinburgh and Birmingham.
There is no strong Yorkshire identity that would support any kind of independence. People in Sheffield, Barnsley (with left leanings) feel no kinship with people in York,Harrogate which are deemed more affluent and culturally different. Very few people would support independence and I don't understand why you think they would.
I don't think they would
and like
your point about kinship and cultural difference is interesting when you consider how different various parts of Scotland are. Historically the highlands/lowlands divide has been as important as any Scottish/English one.
True.
I'm aware of the highlands/lowlands divide. (Samuel Johnson had a lot to say about it) but never the less Scots are just more driven. I've lived there and experienced the passion (ooo-er) and if I was Scottish I'm sure my "heart" would tell me to vote yes.
..but if an Independent Yorkshire party asked for my vote I would just laugh.
yeah I know
but my point is that people up there^ are essentially saying that I'm somehow being 'democratically irresponsible' for not supporting independence because
1. scotland is almost 100% non-tory (which is it but as i've said so are large areas of england)
2. scotland is a 'nation' (which it definitely is, in the same culturally fragmented way that most nations are. however, i'm struggling to see how this makes it 'undemocratic' to oppose independence. the argument seems to be: you should vote for independence because scottish nationalism exists, even if you don't agree with it. how this is any more democratically responsible i do not know).
OK I'm gonna leave it there DD...
...since I also believe an ideal solution would be the development of a wider socialist movement in the UK so we're kinda singing from the same hynmbook as the cliche goes.
Have a good weekend DD. :-)
nice one
you have a good weekend too :)
And since 1935 (80 years ago) the govt has swung from Lab to Con. 8 times.
Not sure why this is ridiculous...
do u know who else wants to split big government into local concerns
"who else"
who? aside from who?
guys, this whole thread is based on a facebook comment Moker read
http://drownedinsound.com/community/boards/social/4444191#r7961642
ABANDON COUNTRY!
No it's not
This whole thread is people trying to say I'm wrong or angry when it should be perfectly obvious I'm quite often neither.
http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130330164206/degrassi/images/c/cc/Cp_smug.gif
and you still getting wound up by it :D
Life on Deepfried Mars
strong
Och you pretty things?
middling.
Fife on Mars
etc
Fife Years
It'll be brilliant when Scotland fucks off
because then all the cunting Scottish MPs won't be able to vote in tuition fees in England whilst voting against them in Scotland, like the cunty little scrotes they are. Good riddance.
(literally just remembered about this)
Tories forever, woo!
it's kinda good
it means the only way the left (not labour, actual left) can get anywhere is through violent revolution
which means the possibility of a communist utopian revolution increases from 0.000000001% to 0.000000002%
and you've got to take any progress you can
yeah because tuition fees really are the big issue facing this country
ffs
The 2004 Higher Education Bill.
316 votes for.
311 votes against.
MPs representing constituencies in Scotland voted at Westminster thusly:
Liberal Democrat: 0 for. 10 against.
SNP: 0 for. 5 against.
Conservative and Unionist: 0 for. 1 abstained.
Labour: 46 for, 5 against, 2 abstained, 1 ill and absent.
http://i.imgur.com/cg1uu4x.jpg
will scotland stay where it is if they separate?
Like, will I still be able to pop up there to go sporran shopping or eat a haggis?
I believe the deal is
they'll be legally obliged to cut through the former UK along the boundary of Hadrian's Wall and float themselves 5 miles north to ensure the new border is kept secure.
im not sure if I can get behind this
What happens to the Union Jack if the porridge ewoks vote yes?
Does it lose the white bits on the flag?
Blue ?
There's some pretty wacky suggestions here
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-25205017
yesss
http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/71518000/jpg/_71518678_flaginstitute_unitedbritain(3).jpg
I guess if they change the union flag it also means all those countries that have it still in their own flag like Oz and NZ are also going to have to change their flags. This decision is too far-reaching to leave to a rabble like the Scots.
Top one looks like someone's spilt tea all over it
best one
http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/71534000/jpg/_71534680_350600.jpg
those are all turd
and whats the yellow?
It's to symbolise rivers of piss
or Liberal Democrats.
Take your pick.
Welsh daffodils.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_St_David
i see
never seen that before, nor have I been to wales for any welsh celebrations. I believe these two facts to be connected
i like the one that incorporates Welsh green
plus, it might mean that we get more interesting sporting kits
and then maybe if we get an NFL team they'll have red and green kits, and that'd be good
What are your boys going to do?
Probably need to do something other than copy the Aussue flag, eh?
There's a PM-led "discussion" underway about changing it as we speak
Scotland voting yes could actually be the final trigger to finally get rid of the shitty current flag and not before time
You leave the Union Jack alone Sir
Don't worry, TD,
any surplus flags can be turned into child killing kites. Everyone wins.
wait
is moker killing moon?
No way bro
Apart from some genuinely hilarious and valuable / valued comedy accounts that always make everyone smile, I just post under moker.
Which doesn't make people smile, mostly.
100
Which way is Big Ange voting?
this thread reminds me of limmy the other day:
https://vine.co/v/M7b0em9OuTA
“I'm selfish, impatient and a little insecure.
I make mistakes, I am out of control and at times hard to handle. But if you can't handle me at my worst, then you sure as hell don't deserve me at my best.”
- Scotland
Didn't know Scotland wrote the opening to Faint by Linkin Park