Your are viewing a read-only archive of the old DiS boards. Please hit the Community button above to engage with the DiS !
He's the only player we have that the opposition are genuinely scared of, and he's still the first one they'd choose to get out. He has way more baggage than is healthy, but I'd at least have waited to see what the new coach could get out of him.
With nailed down openers and trott in the form of his life at 3, now is the perfect time to get rid of our best middle order batsman.
lowest dependable batting total they can get to.
3. Bell maybe?
7. Jack Russell (WK)
8. First county spinner to take 3 wickets in an innings.
And the Aussies are still hoping he'll come out of retirement.
We've got at least years of the press and public clamouring for him to come back every time we score under 300. So every test.
have eased and he would have carried on. My first thought when I heard the news was 'why?': he is still one of our best batsmen so would warrant a place on merit. If the new coach came in and wanted access to the best players then there would be an issue if he is told he can't pick Pietersen. What is frustrating is that there is obviously something we don't know about the atmosphere in the dressing room. Senior players are unhappy with him and yet they are all sweetness and light when they are asked by the media.
All that said, I agree with Michael Vaughan that a good manager knows how to deal with 'difficult' players. We see this in football regularly - it's about having the qualities of man-management beyond just being a good tactician and coach. We'll have to wait and see who breaks ranks before it is clear whether this was the right decision
in his relationship with some of the other senior players. I remember when Cantona was at Leeds there were always rumours he was banging the other players' wives. Maybe it's that.
I remember that. In typical football rumour/Chinese whisper type situations it soon became 'Cantona is shagging Leslie Ash' because Lee Chapman had the most famous wife.
It seems to be the default rumour whenever there are things we can't explain - look at Saha/Moyes
I mean you see players dropped all the time - but actually, like, sacked? Mental.
Obviously as an England cricket fan I'm absolutely gutted to never see him bat again. But we'll have to wait a few years to see if it was the right decision or not... maybe it will be in the best interests of English cricket. No player is bigger than the club after all.
My hunch though is that the England cricket set up is too insular, too arrogant and too conservative. All summed up perfectly by Boycott who said over Christmas something along the lines of `You can have all of the diet plans in the world but when you can't handle someone coming at you bowling 90mph then there's a problem. They can't even get the basics right.`
Think we're headed back to the 90s doledrums lads.
I'm always reminded of a line from Drop The Dead Donkey when Damian Day said something like 'there is a whole generation of kids growing up who think England-Middle-Order-Batting-Collapse is one word'.
I'm glad I got into cricket in the 90s. England could be the best team in the world FOREVER and I'd still not trust them to not collapse.
This last Ashes series was like a warm reacquaintance with an old friend.
this time really felt worse than anything I can remember. At least in the 90s there was a Gooch or an Atherton to weigh in with a tough knock and give us a little hope.
This time it seemed that the whole team had either lost their marbles or were too poor / inexperienced to be out there.
Honestly, this was truly depressing
British cycling has achieved extraordinary things by aiming to be 1% better in every single department and I don't see why cricket should be any different. England have been successful partly through those marginal gains in areas like fielding or tail-end batting through the Fletcher and Flower eras.
Yep, it definitely seems that the impact of Flower's coaching has tailed off dramatically, but I'm sure it wasn't because he was working out menus instead. In fact, as shambolic as this KP episode is, England have also been a little unlucky at how many very good-to-great players seem to have come to the end of their careers almost simultaneously.
Understand totally. However when they're given prominent focus in lieu of being able to handle basic tenets of the game (such as facing 90mph or spin) then you have a problem. Not only do you have a problem - your team looks silly and vulnerable. Which gives your opponents such a boost it'll offset any marginal gains you've had in the first place.
Sure - the menus gig is a slight red herring, but you can't make marginal gains when there's something deeply wrong at the core of the team. The seeming self-satisfaction of the England set up appears a real problem. They've forgotten how to actually play cricket. Which is as sad as it is infuriating.
but it also just doesn't ring true to me that the coaching has been predominantly to blame. Flower's a perfectionist and the idea that he didn't (try to) prepare players for spin bowling or genuine pace just seems absurd.
Whether the players cared enough about wanting to carry on being the best (a common problem across all English sports) is another matter.
Anyway, it was clearly the right time for Flower to leave, but the idea that Boycott holds any insight into coaching given his main criticism is always "that lad needs to bat/bowl/catch better" seems a bit laughable. I also agree that the England cricket set-up is likely too insular, but the critics of it in the media are arguably even more so.
Ultimately it's about players taking responsibility. Too many senior names haven't. Their heads aren't right and nor are their approaches to shot-making. Probably partially attributable to coaching but I'm not blaming Flower in the slightest. Great coach who's done a great job. Can't knock him. But there's something about the entire set-up which is causing underachievement. Maybe removing Pietersen will help. Who knows.
Obviously Boycott's hardly at the cutting edge but... y'know I tend to find myself agreeing with him more than anyone else. Always have. His fortright assertions about getting the basics right are like a fucking stuck record sometimes but... he's usually right.
I thought you were saying the failure to do the basics right was a coaching failing.
Agree about Boycott usually being right too - he's a fantastic analyst of the game, and can usually spot declining form from a distance, but he'll always be a great critic without offering any great solutions.
...we were really successful though? It was only the beginning of last year/the end of 2012 that we were beating India in a test series over there.
Although the India series win is a bit of an outlier in a sea of poor performances. I mean Pakistan 2012 for instance… jeeeeesus. We were shit in the summer Ashes too. Really shit.
Think the problem is the fact that the ECB still has this `we’re the best team in the world lads` attitude picked up around 2011. You’ve got players like Bell, Cook, Swann, Prior, Broad and, also, Pietersen being continually shit and seeming utterly unbothered about it. It’s just all a bit weird.
To be honest I think a lot of my discontent might come from Cook’s captaincy. Really not impressed by him.
...that there is an over-reliance on the 'old guard' in the England team, so when top players misfire there is nobody to come in. This must have a massive mental (& physical!) effect on the players...when you look at how much we rely on Stuart Broad for example...I remember seeing a figure saying the number of overs he bowled last year and he had done about twice as many as the 2nd-placed bowler.....who was Jimmy Anderson. That is a bit silly, really.
I agree with you to an extent on Cook, but then if not him when who?
Although Australia had the same problem - reluctantly elevated Clarke to skipper and he's turned into the best captain in the world. Averages over 60 as captain as well don't he?
Be interesting to see what someone like Stuart Broad would do as captain.
We've gone from being one of the best sides in the world to a shambles in 3 months.
No Opening batsman
No Number 3
No Middle Order
No Wicket Keeper
That's not to mention Cook's captaincy, our best bowler maybe past it and the Steve Finn issue.
If you had to name an England team tomorrow the line-up would be:
Stokes didn't have a look-in.
Anderson will come good again, but it does leave us with just four senior players, two of whom are in abysmal form.
Next five years are going to be thoroughly depressing to watch.
I think it is actually a while since they were one of the best sides in the world. Looking back with the benefit of recent events, when we won the Ashes last summer we seem now to have been very lucky. And also had the advantage of playing on pitches which masked the main problem - inability to play fast, hostile bowling. We didn't go from hero to zero in a matter of months, and Mitchell Johnson didn't go from laughing stock to wonder boy in the same short space of time
So two and a half years. We've been fairly dodgy since. Great result in India, but didn't feel like a great performance as much as taking advantage well.
We just can't face any kind of sub-continental bowling.
Don't get the hyperbole around him as he's been shit for a while now. He was always a massive prick, which you can get away with when you're good, but when you're just as shit as the rest of the team and you're only getting worse...
and in the case of the last Ashes series every other English batsmen too. The lad has spent his entire career winning test matches for England and getting the blame when it goes south. If the ECB want a team of plodders averaging 30 but with the right "attitude" and a coach who encourages low scoring safety first approach then that's fine but we'll soon plummet further than we already have.
ish. But it doesn't change the fact that he hasn't been winning test matches for England for a long while. Nobody else has either (except maybe some of the bowlers), but if you're a massive bell who's no longer at the top of his game then you can expect to get your marching orders (see also: Roy Keane, Ronaldinho, Richard Keys and Andy Gray, etc etc)
but trouble here is at the moment he's being made to look like a fall guy rather than it being just one part of many changes being made to fix the England setup. In those other cases, they were moved on from functioning organisations where they more or less were the problem. In this case, he's being moved on from a seemingly disfunctional organisation where despite his problems, he's still just about the best performing member.
The fact that Cook's captaincy or Bell, who is as old and arguably about 100 times more inconsistent than Pietersen, are above criticism speaks volumes.
Flower got the boot as well.
Point is that there is something of a root and branch overhaul going on, and Pietersen is part of that.
You were trying to dispute the notion of him as a fall guy because Flower got the sack, which he didn't. In fact he's about to become a technical director for England.
"he's being made to look like a fall guy rather than it being just one part of many changes being made to fix the England setup"
I'd say Flower leaving qualifies as another change. As for being sacked/resigning, it's usually 6 of one, half a dozen of the other.
As between retirement and form the side has been decimated which would suggest getting rid of your best senior batsmen is a terrible idea even if he is a prick. I mean ffs they're talking about bringing Morgan back into the fold. He'll do exactly the same as KP and get out to a shit shot only he'll have made you 30 runs less.
Good management should be able to handle world class players and obviously Cook feels he's not up to it whereas someone like Michael Vaughan would be strong enough to keep people like Flintoff and KP involved and productive.
Vaughan was obviously a better captain than Cook, but he had a much better KP to deal with.
I don't think England's management have handled any of their current problems particularly well, but I kind of trust them on this issue.
Cook's been groomed since his debut to be England captain. His captaincy is the end point of a 6 year plan to manage his ascent. Seems the establishment have taken his side even though his own performances with bat and brain have been poorer since Pietersen's.
Strange. And only supports my point upthread about the insularity of English cricket. I mean I guess they've got to stick with Cook given they've so much invested in him and there's no-one else but... it's all looking a bit bleak.
Amazing to think that had Trescothick not suffered so sadly from mental health issues, he might've never even played for England...
Which i think needs a lot of work.
As well as that strange twang from i don't know where, he also says uh or erm around 50 times in a 3 minute interview
Don't like people with weird mouths.
Alistair Cook should be really, really handsome but he's just... not.
as if it's a common expression.
"Well if our top order don't contribute, then we'll struggle to win matches. Simple deal." No wonder most of the dressing room clearly think he's a dick.
Watching England play cricket without KP is going to be a much poorer affair.
If your a casual cricket fan you'd turn over the channel to watch his innings. If you pay money to watch a game live you want to see him bat.
His brother was too. They both wore caps at the dining table.
Still want him in the England team though, maybe we could lock up his brother to even things up a bit.
His main was made entirely of body parts of old Chelsea Managers.