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but he had a good innings. 95's a grand age.
Anyway, over to moker and CrispinAlexander...
wonder if Cameron will
he shouldn't be reduced to such a thing
just clearing the PR gloss off the top to show the bullshit underneath
i know what road the discussion will go down and its not the thread for it.
to be dignified world leaders and all bowing their heads together - it's pretty sickening given their history and Cameron's individual relationship to the politics of the time
Few world leaders did more on the international stage to resist the calls for the end of apartheid than Margaret Thatcher (have a read about Thatcher, Lord Soames & Rhodesia while we're on the subject too)
If Cameron wants to err ...whitewash his political past then people are going to pull him up on it
I'm looking forward to his speech when he renounces the Thatcherite Pro-Botha period as having been a sorry mistake and how Mandela showed him the truth and the light through his dignity and courage
"When Cameron latches on the Mandela bandwagon remember that in 1985 he was a top member of the Federation of Conservative Students, who produced the “hang Mandela” posters.
In 1989 Cameron worked in the Tory Policy Unit at Central Office and went on a anti-sanctions fact finding mission to South Africa with pro-apartheid Lobby Firm that was sponsored by Botha.
Remember this when he tells the world he was inspired by Madiba."
So yeah, remember that
give it a rest
I think it's the timing that people are taking issue with. Within the hour of his death being announced people are desperate for others to be either disingenuous or downright nasty.
Give it a few hours, eh?
I somehow doubt 'stupidsexyflanders' would give a shit in 10 hours', 10 months' or even 10 years' time, from the tone of the response, which is what I was taking issue with.
by the timing of that sort of response in this thread. In fact what BITT is saying is probably right, but now is not the time for political point-scoring.
As leaders line up to pilfer as much reflected glory as possible as they engage in some quick historical revisionism it is /precisely/ the time to point out their recent past
the attitude you're espousing is the kind of attitude that allows Jimmy Savile Christmas Specials to get made
and in any case, it's really baffling how people are running up the 'it's disrespectful' flag when I'm talking about the past misdemeanors of the current (centre?) right wing power elite and not about the great man who just died who they're nauseatingly trying to use as a PR tool when he spent much of his life opposing and fighting against their values
but whatever, go and put your arm around a Tory in their hour of grief
of forgiveness and reconciliation. This makes you part of the problem, not the solution.
paying tribute to great people after their deaths is about "reflected glory"?
It depends on how Mandelson a sort of person you are.
I <3 you and am normally in respectful awe, if not always agreement, at what you post. But this is baws mate.
it's a victory for liberal values that the acceptable right has been forced to incorporate the likes of Mandela, King, Pankhurst etc into its pantheon of greats, and if his lasting legacy overseas is to make conservative types a bit less racist generally then that's wonderful and a change for the best.
they just say they have.
"Many tributes so far say he was great because he forgave. But mostly he was great because he fought, often against those now making tributes." - Mark Steel, for what it's fwiw
you know, at the most cynical you could say David Cameron only believes he believes in racial equality, but the fact is that thanks to folk like Mandela, liberal values have changed the mainstream for the better, and suggesting that all our right wingers are really all a bunch of racists still is probably denigrating the achievement of Mandela and his ilk. Right wingers are still capable of being cunts for right wing reasons without being racist, imperialist etc.
At least get your facts right.
Cameron went on a pro-Aparteid trade trip. It was Jon Bercow who was a member of the FCS.
I've checked it out (after posting that on twitter).
*and* he wore some fucking awesome shirts.
...looking forward to all the forthcoming eulogies. He deserves them.
by forcing the bbc to abandon airing "mrs brown's boys" to announce it
sad news despite his good run
In, y'know, a meaninful sense, not a modern one. Maybe not if you're a bit younger than thi...your late twenties, idk, you might feel differently.
Probably a generational thing, though, eh? If put on the spot i'd have said Mandela, Jackson, Thatcher, Pope JP2, Ali. Feels like lots of iconic, world famous figures have passed away in recent years anyway.
i wasn't suggesting Muhamad Ali had passed away there.
I mean, I've been aware of Nelson Mandela for a very long time, and it's impossible not to know about his role and his legacy, but I don't really feel anything. It's sad when any force for good passes away, but I feel a bit academic about it all - find it very strange watching people on Facebook younger than me posting tributes, but maybe they just take more of an interest than I ever have. (I'm 26 btw).
I in no way intended to be rude, but you don't need to be over 26 to have been inspired by Mandela, or even have to have a deep understanding of apartheid given the magnitude of his fame and legacy.
Fair enough if it doesn't connect with you (I'm not saying it should) but I also wouldn't be too cynical about other peoples tributes in this case.
I'm just trying to express my own reaction, in response to what burst_apart said above.
My post sounded more affronted than I intended.
Many 'celebrity' deaths completely pass me by, and only very rarely does it truly sadden me when someone I have no 'real life' connection to passes away, even when I respect their work. I don't think it's unusual to have a relatively muted reaction to these things.
Still, I think the death of Mandela will bring more genuinely heartfelt tributes than almost any other figure could.
i know what you mean.
Facebook has suddenly become a black hole of sanctimonious bullshittery.
Mandela was great. His example was beyond comprehension in my opinion. Putting up picture of a candle with a quote of his that was knocked up seven months ago on your social media profile when everyone else is doing it is just about as inspired as a fucking big mac.
Its a early backlash, I grant you.
Fucking irritating isn't it Robeson. Just saw some bawbag post this a moment ago:
"Putting up picture of a candle with a quote of his that was knocked up seven months ago on your social media profile when everyone else is doing it is just about as inspired as a fucking big mac."
somewhere in some marketing agency, some really, really awful people are gonna be ecstatic about the timing of this. the cunts.
I wasn't around while he implemented such significant changes and I really can't pretend that I have been following him since. But I feel that he was the last true example of a great person that was known and respected by everyone for his political involvement but also for his strength in character .Who do we use as an example of a truly great person now?
did his greatness die too?
With a picture of her with a wax model of Gandhi.
ghandi behind him
ghandi behind the waxwork
flour in the hairdryer trick?
but if I'm honest I don't know the ins and outs of his life, his terrorist activities with the ANC, his presidency or how much change he brought about practically, and I feel people are quick to overstate the actions of one guy. Also he was 95. So, in some ways, I feel a bit detached from it.
but I don't personally feel anything. not shocked, because he was 95, and it was gonna happen sooner rather than later. and he had such a monumental life. it's not all that sad with these things in mind.
*nods respectfully at image of Nelson Mandela*
he was 95 (cracking knock) and was increasingly being used as a madame tussaud's sculpture of himself for politicians and celebrity to pose next to in order to boost public perception of themselves, which i always found disgusting.
Harry, London, 1 hour ago
RIP Nelson Mandela. Fitting that he passed away in the same year as Margaret Thatcher. For both were champions of the cause of human freedom in the face of oppression.
as that paper disgraces themselves even further
i don't really agree with the idea that his death (or any death) shouldn't be put in context, ultimately any death that doesn't directly affect you is as symbolic as it is anything else. the idea of tories talking about 'madiba' in positive terms is emetic and i hope that history is remembered in this case because the tories' contemporary attitude towards mandela is crucial to his legacy. with their support he wouldn't be the figure he was and so i hope that they don't try to exploit the 'opportunity' that his death offers them (because the public have a poor memory for things like this)
although i'm not entirely sure that most british people recall the tacit support of apartheid under thatcher
A true giant amongst men.
Rest peacefully, madiba
"While we were physically denied our freedom in the country of our birth, a city 6,000 miles away, and as renowned as Glasgow, refused to accept the legitimacy of the apartheid system, and declared us to be free." - Mandela, 9 October 1993
"In 1981, Glasgow Council decided to set its face against this opinion and awarded Mandela the Freedom of the City. During the 1980s he had been given the Freedom of the City by nine UK regions - Aberdeen, Dundee, Greenwich, Islwyn in Gwent, Kingston Upon Hull, Midlothian, Newcastle, Sheffield and, of course, Glasgow. It was the city which was chosen to host Mandela as he arrived to accept all these awards in October 1993."
+ Phenomenal IRL trolling: "In 1986, Glasgow brought more attention to the jailed freedom fighter by changing the name of St George's Place in the city centre to Nelson Mandela Place. The name change was made more significant by the fact that the South African consulate-general was based on the fifth floor of the Stock Exchange building, at an address which now bore the name of the country's most famous political prisoner."
I have an office across from nelson mandela place and am aware of the provenance of the square, but it still made me chuckle. Glaswegians are bloody thrawn, in the best way.
& he died a few days later
phenomenal way of burying bad news
Are the people posting tributes on *your*wall:
a) the ones who might have a single iota of knowledge about any sort of politics whatsoever, or
b) the dribbling idiots who regularly skirt racism in their regular posts and have just stuck up that most-anodyne-possible quote about conquering fear?
yeah thought so
I misread it.
I change my plea to 'neither'.
fair enough. looks like it's time for another FB cull.
And Facebook tells me I should be and need to write a RIP tribute. But he was 95! It's hardly a shock.
My SA colleague said she can't stop crying.
While it's obviously more shocking for someone young to die, I don't recall any funerals of octogenarians (and I've been to a few) where someone said, "Yeah, she was 80-odd. Not much of a shock really. Right, let's go down the pub..."
But it's just not something I can connect with. Sorry.
It was only a few months ago when he was in hospital for a long time and everyone thought he died/was about to die. But this is what happens when you're 95 and ill. There's no doubting he achieved great things in his life time.
I'm just disagreeing with the notion that age has much to do with feelings on the matter, although if anyone's written "Shocking news" against their RIPs you have a point.
I certainly don't think any of the tributes I've read have implied surprise at his death but obviously by convention you give your tributes after someone dies.
Friends on have changed their profile pics to a pic him. BIt weird. Plenty of black and white pics and quotes. Also one status update from an old school friend branding him a terrorist, the REAL Mandela. Looks like a cut and pasta job from a site called thebackbencher. What to do? Delete him or forgive him his daftness?
Personally I don't really feel much of anything about it. He was a very old man, was ill, he died. Great life, inspiring man, but I'm not exactly sad or in mourning I must admit, though I'm having a smile and thinking, good chap.....hope i live that long.
he was a tagliaterrorist!
I forgot to ask him
We don't refer to the French Resistance as terrorists.
I think most universities that were around in the 80s/90s dedicated a room or lecture theatre to him at some point.
Of the four years I was at the university, I only went into the Mandela Room once - and that was to meet Shed Seven who were using at their dressing behind the main hall they were playing on their 'farewell' tour back in 2003.
This was about as far as any 'personal' connection to Mandela got. As others have alluded to upthread, by the time I had any real appreciation of who he was and what he achieved he had already become a historical or academic figure, even though he was still alive.
But when, if ever, we reach a post-racial society (on a global scale) he will quite rightly be hailed as one of its chief architects - and for this he is quite rightly revered. His 'misdemeanors' will be forgotten and his legacy will be one of positivity and peace-making.
They showed a video beforehand of Mandela's achievements and it really made me a convert to the Madiba cause. The forgiveness of his oppressors seemed genuine and he almost had to stifle a tear when talking about being called a terrorist, but he did it in such a way where it didn't seem contrived.
-get a bloody grip.
there will always be bandwagon jumpers, but you just ignore them, it's really easy.
Instead of apathy, I'd far prefer that some 21 year old who has never read the long walk to freedom, or properly tried to understahd the politics of SA and apartheid felt engaged enough to undestand that, whilst they don't quite iumderstand why, they feel enagaged with the sense that the world has lost an important figurehead, and that this person had a role in shaping the world they live in. Far too much intellectual snobbery in this thread for my liking, although I am in the foulest temper imaginable today.
But he has inspired so many people who will carry on what he fought for.
Will the world be very different without him, even at the age if 95? I dunno.
That's his legacy
and he's been cut down in his prime.
The way I see it is that he has done so much, changed the world, inspired so many people.... So the world hasn't lost someone. They've gained more from his life than they have lost from his death. If he hung on for 5 more years, it wouldn't change much.
IM GOING TO SHUT UP NOW BYE
I don't really 'get' feeling sad about deaths of people you don't know who have retired. In a way it seems a bit weird that you'd wait until after they're gone to eulogise them.
it gives one moment for everyone to reflect on their life and achievements. In Mandela's case those are enormous, complicated and significant achievements. For that reason I'd suggest that whether someone feels they can connect or not then today would be a good time to set aside a few minutes to read some of the detailed tributes and just reflect on a great life.
and I get why tributes happen after someone dies obviously. I don't know an awful lot about him so will read some obits and stuff.
and I think he would like this.
IDK, I'd accept a charge of harshness on people who are just a bit divvy but the borderline-EDL-sympathisers pulling this shit got right on my tits.
amin th efoulest temper imaginable. I am gong for a fag (COUNTDOWN- stop date is four weeks today!!) and will come back all sweetness and light. and smoky.
over the "HE WAS OLD. WHY SHOULD I BE SAD?"
who had his faults (as do we all) but learned to forgive the faults in others as those had forgiven him.
Today's front pages
that one of the standard phrases being wheeled out is that he was "one of the last great statesmen". Are we supposed to accept that we don't get any more of these now? Surely it's not too much to hope that someone else with exceptional levels of courage and wisdom some day finds themselves in a position to have some influence again?
Thought maybe Obama might be one: he certainly sold himself to the American people and world as one. But despite the obvious massive weight of being the first black US president, his "achievements" in office have been very poor
One would hope that there is a child somewhere who may turn out like Mandela: I would look to China achieving democracy being an equivalent to the end of aparteid
of course we'll ave staesmen. Mankind will find other systenatic ways of dividnig people and there will anotgher person who is brave and dedicated and eloquent enough to stand against it. Maybe not in our lifetime, but there will be.
I don't think it serves any purpose to be overly analytical in times like these. (thinking of the person who made the genghis khan comparioisn- ummm, pokay, i think I can see a phiolosophical parallel if I lie on the floor and squint at the sun for a bit, but really? seriously? time and a place.)
As you say, all that is required is a small period of quiet reflection. and then The Specials on repeat for a wee bit.
But it's a rather spooky sentiment now though huh?
Gonna head down and take a look at his (tiny) statue in Parliament Square at lunch time.
Got vox-popped by German telly. Sorry Germans for whatever crap I said.
hw said no.
is to get the phrase 'pokay' to catch on.
let's al listen to the specials though, loads.
I was one of the fb wnakers who posted somethign last nioght, but it was more of a reminiscence. Wadham college bop (horrible word for disco/ party in the college bar that somehow is still common parlance) alwayts eneded with that song, ut the night I am thinking off it was on for about 40 ,minutes. in some kind of mental extended version. I was off my face on k cider that came in an ultrviolet bottle, and my 17 year old sister was having to hold me upright and I tried to scramble up a wall and sit on the edge of a picture frame (nice to see that >10 years on and nothing has changed). Wadham still play it apprently as theirt exit music at a bop, notwithstading lack of incarceation. I like this.
can we sinbin pickledoeuf? this place has to have SOME standards
i thought that typing was quite good for me. IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT DON'T READ IT.
We all gathered out on the front quad (which you aren't supposed to do) Then there was a short speech before a 2 min silence after which a big sound system blared it out, and we all got on each others shoulders.
I was worried it would be the wrong tone to take after it, and make it just about student drinks, but it ended up more of a celebration of his life than anything else which was actually quite touching.
just don't log on, or just skirt past poss made my eejits. facebook is great, when you use it properly.
particularly at times like this where it becomes very difficult to ignore stuff like this, but more than anything it zaps all your time and energy into something that doesn't really matter (bit like DiS then)
my Facebook is great because I don't have many cunts, and those that I do have are deleted the moment they become cunts. The only people who complain about Facebook are those who have friends, old friends, or "friends" that they don't really care for.
This isn't the right thread for this discussion though.
but yeah you're right, not the place
:) i just mean that not everyone has cunts on it talking shit, and those that do... well, they do it to themselves.
I wouldn't go as far as saying people on my facebook are cunts though I just find any time like this annoying to be around social media regardless of the reaction
And this is worth bearing in mind:
though im not sure there is anything too wrong with trying to paint Mandela as being about 'one love' so soon after his death, as long as you don't forget his struggle and cause whilst you do so.
2 HOURS AGO. JFC, keep up marckee. ;-)
Good try though.
or jesus or whatever
rather than just culling, do you not think of those people as chances to make the world a better place?
I know it's easier to proselytise to to the choir, but maybe try and enlighten these people rather than jettisoning them in disgust?
genuine question: have you ever tried to engage in political discussion with people on facebook?
particularly when using ludicrous ten-dollar words like "proselytise"?
Or just nog
having accumulated plenty of Tories from the seven years I lived in Plymouth.
it's a grind, sure, but there's always a chance that you can make a break through if you put your argument across in a way that doesn't turn its nose up or dumb down or antagonise.
re: the sub-question, well people can Google that, can't they? I figure if they're vocal about politics, they might not just glaze over at, um, ludicrous ten-dollar words.
I'm not cracking out my fancy book learnin' when people post about their EDL sympathies though TBH
"Stupid babies need the most
but yeah, gots to engage even the worst in order to make things better.
Is the guido site just that one image?
(That's what it shows as on my phone.)
You can get to other pages via links
Only posted it cause Moker is on it.
I can't see.
I certainly did post that and have since checked it all out - and some of it is indeed wrong. John Bercow was chairman of FCS though.
But I'm in the middle of writing a blog post about how this is wrong.
Whilst this is sad, this is a mad who changed a country, introduced equality, succeeded in all his personal and political goals and lived to a very old age. Death is sad, but I can’t see how it could be better. Does that make sense?
if the ANC had continued the pace of his work on rebuilding South Africa. Work which is very much not finished. It's perhaps a mercy for him that he's not going to have to watch them try to carry on where he left off.
It starts off with four paragraphs about the time when Mandela came to where he was working at the time and inspired everyone. The next paragraph then immediately starts with "We had a good away day last week looking at how we can deliver improvements for our customers " and then he tells us how his football club's doing and what he's been listening to on his ipod.
every paragraph a different, hermetically sealed compartment of a man's pinstriped brain. The kind of person who can write those sorts of communiques terrify me.
I find all this gushing (all media) rather graceless and tacky, which is a shame as he came across as graceful and dignified.
I cannot get it out of my head
and she changed the words to 'freeeeeeee Blakey my fella'
didnt think people actually did that
More a kind of mixture of respect and a quiet reflection.
An absolutely incredible human being, from standing up to the National Party in the face of horrid repression, to the class he carried himself with when he got out of prison. I can't imagine doing anything but being consumed by bitterness and hatred. Was a bit young to really recall it, but do remember me dad wiping away a tear the day he got out.
People also don't give him credit for being quite the canny operator too. In prison he learnt all about Afrikaaner history and culture which later on helped in the negotiations to end apartheid as the men he spoke with were very impressed by how much he knew about where they were coming from.
For all he did and achieved it also feels very sad to see South Africa stagnating under Mbeki and Zuma's corruption
Always remember watching a show Letters to Auntie where they read letters people had sent to the BBC. There was one complaining the Antiques Roadshow was interrupted to show his release from prison :'D
because I was 7 and the front page of the paper said he was a hero.
Never liked the cult of personality others built round him but just an undeniably great man.
About hope or love or something.
This for me, is his defining one. I've not seen it anywhere
*During my lifetime I have dedicated myself to this struggle of the African people. I have fought against white domination, and I have fought against black domination. I have cherished the ideal of a democratic and free society in which all persons live together in harmony and with equal opportunities. It is an ideal which I hope to live for and to achieve. But if needs be, it is an ideal for which I am prepared to die.*
but yes, definitive.
28 minutes long
Sad that he has passed but a good innings at 95!
Always remember when I was wee and my dad explained to me that Nelson Mandela Place in Glasgow was renamed in 1985 while he was still in Prison, best part was the SA consulate was on Nelson Mandela place so all mail had to be addressed accordingly :-)
Still, delightful bit of trolling.
Oh well fair play.
the one i frequent has just got to the 'lets not forget what he did before' stage. a ???? reply has come and essentially i'm about to get the popcorn gif out.
this isn't your diary. shut up
please let us know the exact amount of personal feeling that is appropriate in each post reacting to a famous person's death. Ta
those are really essential and totally not diary material?
Nearly all the people that had dominated the news in the 80's and 90's seem to have passed on, it's strange to think of such landmarks and people in history being made in your own lifetime, yet when they teach history in a hundred years time, people like Nelson Mandela and Gorbachev and will be in there.
but I think will be cruelly ignored by history.
Proper hairs on the back of the neck stuff from start to finish: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nL8Qmznec2o
One thing I can say for some of the comments made on here:
Before the election in 1994, which was the first democratic election in South Africa, it was basically set in motion for a massive civil war to break out. Everyone was terrified when Nelson Mandela was elected as they believed that what was to happen next would be similar to Zimbabwe's future fate. However, this man stood up and said he wanted and strove for equality, forgiveness and democracy for his country (both black and white). That took courage. And for the comments to be made that he was a terrorist. Yes, he may have retaliated and people died, but it doesn't even closely touch on the amount of victims (both white and black) who died at the hands of the apatheid government. And horrific deaths at that - children being shot. Innocent people being beaten to death and thrown out of windows because they stood in the wrong line.
Regardless of what anyone thinks or says, he really was a great man. And if people choose to honour him by posting blacked out pictures or quotes or whatever, that's their choice. Quite frankly he deserves to have that respect.
rugby world cup 95 was when I first got into rugby and I was 11 so it didn't really sink in at the time, but I look back now at that photo of him in Pienaar's shirt and it's breathtaking. With everything that shirt represented, to take it, own it, the very icon of white dominance and re-purpose it in a way that was inclusive for everyone just wow. Floors me every time I see it