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Egypt in particular.
scottish devolutionists eh? rewriting the geographical map to suit their fancy
Eddie Izzard riffed about the subject of flags very amusingly. Flags are an abstraction and mean different things to different people.
and yet people are encouraged to rally around them......there is some sense to this when you are engaged in a confused melee of life or death and you hav little control over your destiney.
But the reality is different a farmers on each side of the border will live quite similar lives with quite similar concerns, and with similar real values (apart from those values that they are encouraged to adopt by abstract notion of nationality) Of course there are big differences between a london beurocrat and them, but there will be marked similarities between an edinburgh crat and a london crat.
People are enouraged to be flag fetischists.....(Even I have a penchant to the Kernow's flag due to its similarity to the pirate type flags in being black and somehow evoking and anarchist or antiauthoritarian stance........most flags are used to promote some form of authority even if it is only an opposition....they rarely represent a collective (although the US seems to have made up a bunch of nice sounding words (along these lines) that exist in a parrallel reality to the one they actually occupy)
Because whilst I can understand a narrowed viewpoint would indeed have every justification in seceding from westminster rule, a wider viewpoint would accept that there are many other regions and people that would want to do this too (and that many regions oc scotland would not want decisions on their life to be made just by another big city viewpoint (Edinburgh) in fact the whole issue of who subsidises who, and 'centricity' will still exist in a devolved scotland)
Of course the thing that seperates the concept of Scotland seceding is that there are many abstractions that (apparently) lend weight to the genuine argument e.g. a 'Scottish flag', a line marked on a map, some powerful men who lived a long time ago and who called themselves 'Scottish Kings' as opposed to powerful men who called themselves British or English Kings.
The reality is that power was wrested and contested over my multinational forces and interests (mercenarys came from all over) The latest bunch of royals are of german extraction. the last labour government was at one point comprised of Blair, Brown and Cook and yet no one batted an eyelid about britain 'being ruled' by scots and germans.....because that doesnt really matter.....its the quality of their character that they should be judged by (to quote Martin Luther King) not the colour of their skin or their nominal abstract nationality........If you really want to boil down what is important to abstract notions then one could say stupid things like "Aha Cameron that is a decidedly Scottish name" or "Ah yes the scottish flag....St Andrews cross.....and what miracle did this saint perform......well like two other of the patron saints he brought christianity to scotland.....so essentially he brought a foreign religeon and culture to the land of the scots....i wonder what this involved? do you think that it had anything to do with driving out native more paganistic beliefs and views? (PS I would like to throw my hat in the ring here and say that I do not disagree with the idea of objecting to rule by a centralised authority that lies elsewhere, but I havnt really heard anything awe inspiringly different to the new proposed state that would offer REALLY (in my terms) significant improvement in freedom or benefit to the people that would be affected.....I do not hate scotland, in fact if it were needed then I would be happy for the capital of britain to be moved to Edinburgh......why not? its a magnificant and beautiful city, there have been scottish kings of britain before, i would be happy if there were a scottish queen of britain 'Liz Fraser' whom I would be able to be patriotic for I would find it far easier to bow and scrape to someone that I was genuinely in awe of, because that is what really matters to people.....the other abstract stuff is just artiface......Im british rather than english (If you insist on using these sorts of definitions) Irish, Welsh Scottish and English family, I happen to live in England, as do most britains, its the biggest part, I do not live in London, I have done, and when I lived there most of my freinds were not english, I have also lived in Perth where most of my freinds were scottish.....what does this all mean? I am totally flumoxed and confused by why the scottish sense of identity is any more valid than others, that it should be enshrined......but then again I shouldnt be.....I also see myself as a somerset lad....and a witch...at the local primary school the head will allow christian festivals and will allow hindu (although not hindus at the school) and muslim and jewish festivals......but has banned any festivities on halloween, no cakes or anything......i empathise with the scottish witches in macbeth more than anything else in the english language (when i was a kid) what the fuck is identity? I am a humanbeing as are you our only true flag, or mandela should be the globe of the earth (cos it looks really pretty and it contains all of us an what we cherish and what we want to protect) (when we find alien life then wwe might have to readjust this) (I love the moon and sun and stars too.....but i dont have control over any of these so i only have to love them, not try to adjust my thought and politics and policies to protect these, whereas I.....AND YOU, THEWZA, should be thinking GLOBALLY not LOCALLY, please try to be better, this secedment process will only occupy everyones attention and distract from mor important and urgent issues.
scotland and england?
You speak of many noble aims. They are not, however, even remotely close to being on offer right now in any understandable way. What is on offer is a Yes/No vote in September next year, which, to my mind, is a step in the right direction. Evolution not revolution. Independence is a process, etc, etc. One specific point of order re: 'no-one batted an eyelid' - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_mafia But this thread was never supposed to be about anything like that (there are already a couple bubbling about for such essays). What happened was I saw this http://www.channel4.com/news/graphic-of-the-week-reaction-to-iran-nuclear-deal and thought "heh, christmassy colours, a tree, stars, those flags look like baubles, etc. Kinda ironic. I'll make a cheeky thread about it." not "Yeeha! Flags! Nationalities! Borders! Segregation! Geographical accuracy!". JFC.
i was just venting.
I dont want you to go....
first wishpig now you
"Im british rather than english"
"I happen to live in England, as do most britains"
"I also see myself as a somerset lad"
"I am totally flumoxed and confused by why the scottish sense of identity is any more valid than others"
Firstly don't worry about it pal, your not Scottish, so it's unlikely you are going to understand how someone Scottish feels about their identity. Just take our word for it.
Secondly, who said anything about our identity being more valid than anyone else? The vast majority of Scottish people think of themselves as primarily Scottish simple as that. How folk from somerset or anywhere else feel about their identity doesn't remotely come into it.
I don't think we will get independence this time, but what ever happens it won't come down to how "Scottish" people feel anyway. If it was just down to cultural identity we would have been independent a long time ago.
that seems to be framed around the idea of loyalty to the concept of the UK/Britain.
but I do wonder how many English people consider themselves to be British first and foremost?
(I don't. If someone asked me to describe myself, I'd say "English")
definitely think of myself as English (even though I'm not 'technically'), rather than British. or UKian. there's not even a word for that concept that I'm aware of.
probably would identify as European above British. dunno what I'm getting at here. who cares?
This thread turned out EXACTLY like I expected.
play the ball not the man
(not directed at you, ma0sm)