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Are you a teacher? Are you striking? Why do you want to strike?
If we ever want our kids to be better than China's kids. Gove's going mental in the Coalition Frat House; not even pulling a prank on the EU inspector concerned about the human rights implications of the bedroom tax will cheer him up this time.
He might actually have to stamp on a hawk's back.
Like really, really boring
i have read everything and replied where appropriate. Now get off your horse big fella.
'oh bloody teachers' etc etc, but i'm genuinely curious to hear from some teachers, rather than what I read in the newspapers over breakfast.
convey an image of a sneer, a doubtful snark. those words will always convey that image. that's a tip for you free of charge </snark>
but really I was just referring to the fact there seems to be all too frequent strikes over pay and pensions when I've heard that the pension scheme actually sounds fairly good. It is alright isn't it? Isn't it better than most jobs of similar pay scale? Forgive me, i'm not too au fait with what most people's pensions are like as I've only really talked about my own or looked at teachers'
thta it was about the ability of schools to offer rises to teachers at a whim (so if they want to save money, they just say the teacher isnt deserving of a rise), and also the arbitrary grading (more experienced = more money) has been taken away when applying elsewhere. Essentially its gone in line with private companies pay schemes I suppose
Surely the issue here is the trust between the teachers and their own senior management? I guess they think that their management has too much power now and if they aren't liked for whatever reason then someone who is more popular will get a pay rise. Sure, but isn't that the same everywhere else?
and theyre striking because they dont want it to change.
You can't treat teaching as a meritocracy because how do you measure it? Results? That doesn't work at all. What if you've got a two form entry school where one teacher gets the older kids and one gets the younger kids? The older kids are more likely to get better results so that doesn't work. It's bollocks, hasn't been given one iota of thought. Same old story. And being asked to accept worse pension packages than you signed up for is bollocks as well. That's why they're striking. End of thread
They're either going to be in class (not striking- teh strike is only regional) or out marching or whatever else you do on strike.
were quite a few on here
I think you might have got a more open response had you worked on your thread title. I feel that there doesn't seem to be a hugely coherent, or consistent, explanation as to what this strike is about. Is it educuatonal reform? Pay and conditions? The fact that Gove is a blithering arsehole? All of the preceding? It's not that I've not been paying attention to the news, and I'm not altgether dim, so I'm guessing that most people of similarly average inteliigence may also be feeling in the dark a bit as to what's behind it.
Gove has a portrait of Lenin in his office. I can confirm this.
the media's reporting of them tends to be utterly woeful - not really helped by the fact that some of transport unions tend to threaten strikes over anything and everything and that makes it an easy stick to beat all unions with.
It's just a shame that there isn't a better layman's explanation as to what the hell is going on.
Or, is the bottom line that it is worth striking at anything which looks like it might be an attempt to dismantle the state educaton system, whether by running schools and teachers and morale into the ground, before effective privitisation. Because if so, just say so. (I appreciate it's such a loaded iussue though).
gold plated/platinum plated/diamond encrusted pensions?
but Ive noticed all teachers are obsessed with being teachers and letting you know that they are teachers and how they have a harder life than people think teachers do and how being a teacher is so rewarding but so much paperwork as a teacher and they dont get to do much teaching even though theyre a teacher but they still love being a teacher
the same as like firemen or farmers or fishermen probably go on about their jobs all the time, but you don't meet as many of those so don't hear it as much.
They all dress really similarly in social situations, you can almost guess that someone is a teacher from how they dress. Which isn’t really true of any other profession or job (besides soulless automaton solicitors, who all try and make an effort to be edgy when not wearing a suit in EXACTLY to same predictable way).
Surveyors all, when out for the evening, wear chinos, deck shoes and a check-blue shirt. All of them. Maybe a fleece from White Stuff if it is a bit cold.
also the smell of book dust probably helps.
so I know a lot of them.
They look like DiSers.
I've never knowingly met a surveyor. I shall update the spreadsheet accordingly.
I'm glad I don't fall into the "soulless automaton" category of solicitors.
but I bet you do.
I'm pretty sure I've linked to it before in a thread.
which involved having events with architects and town planners in the same room. It was SO easy to tell which were which. (Architects - black polo necks, plastic glasses, folding bicycles. Town planners - grey suits).
Even Top Gear had spotted it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUAzKgowx3Q
I have met quite a few teachers. In-fact my sister and girlfriend are both teachers. I was also at a party the other week that was almost all teachers (I was dragged along). Anyway, they all talk about how hard the job is and how great the work load is. Okay, not all - but quite an unusually large proportion do.
To that end, it must be a hard job right? I mean, I highly doubt there's so many people making this up. But it's the kind of chip on the shoulder some of these people seem to have and they often come across as if they're very hard done by. Yes, I believe it to be an honourable profession, but looking at it I think the pay matches the job - when you relate it to other jobs.
The thing that gets me is there are plenty of other professions that have similar work load to pay ratio and don't kick up as much a fuss or whatever as teachers do. Why is this? Is it because there's just loads of teachers? I don't know, but I doubt it and think it's just the way teachers are.
Look at the armed forces. Yeah, 20,000 people are loosing their jobs. Regiments are being disbanded, centuries of history and tradition is being lost. Sure, some of those redundancies are voluntary but many aren't. Yet, those units that know they are going to be disbanded are still working hard, training, passing on knowledge and completing operation tours. Why? Because right now it's their job and the need for them is still there. Does a teacher therefore have no pride in their job or care for the children that they think it's acceptable to strike? Surely the primary reason for going into teaching is to help children learn? It should be all about the children. The order should go The children, my work, myself. Not Myself, my work, the children. That's where this all goes wrong and what gives teachers a bad rep when it comes to the strike actions, because they have their priorities completely wrong. Sometimes you just have to carry on and sometimes you have to do something that you don't necessarily agree with and just look at your situation and think, right well I do earn 25k and I am contributing into a pension and building one up and think, can you live on that? Is it actually good. I think if they look at it properly the answer will be yes. If it's the children that come first to them then it should absolutely be good enough.
to rise up against unfair pay and conditions. After all, they're armed, innit? People are shit scared of weapons.
won't affect the kids. i expect increased workloads would have a detrimental impact on the education of children no?
the workload to be the same throughout your career no? What are the details behind this increased workload? I'm confident it wont affect their teaching abilities though. Unless of course they're very unsteady people who can't cope with a bit of pressure.
not able to deliver the same standard of education to their pupils with a higher workload? I don't think it's unrealistic to expect that if you increase someones workload there's no guarantee they'll be able to do the work to the same standard? Hypothetically speaking, how much time in a teachers day do you think is wasted for it to be possible to increase their workload without detriment?
i think that confidence might be a little misplaced tbh
and you'd be punished. Is that allowed under human rights laws? Is there a union for members of the armed forces? Do they/Can they strike in any capacity?
reasons why. Show examples.
Here endeth the lesson
you really that narrow minded? Don't make comments like that if you don't know what you're talking about.
There's a lot to be said for shooting people in the face.
Regiments (of people that shoot people in the face) are being disbanded, centuries of history (of people shooting people in the face) and tradition (of shooting people in the face) is being lost. Sure, some of those redundancies are voluntary (voluntarily stopping shooting people in the face) but many aren't (begrudgingly no longer shooting people in the face). Yet, those units that know they are going to be disbanded are still working hard (to shoot people in the face), training (to shoot people in the face), passing on knowledge (of how to shoot people in the face) and completing operation tours (where they shoot people in the face). Why? Because right now it's their job and the need for them (to shoot people in the face) is still there
"Don't make comments like that if you don't know what you're talking about."
that I don't know all about the teacher thing and have, in part, expressed an opinion, based on some knowledge/experiences I have. If Andyvine knew anything about current operations then he wouldn't have made that comment. It's absurd, absolutely absurd and one of those views a bunch of people in society have without any knowledge of what is actually going in with us in Afghanistan. I bet he is one of the people that shouts at troops on their homecoming marches through towns.
Andyvine... do you shout at troops on their homecoming marches through towns?
(but i did live with a teacher for five years)
are you trying to say that shooting people isn't part of your job? And that your job is more important than educating people? Because if so I'd like you to explain your reasoning please
That's not what I'm saying at all. I just used the armed forces as an example.
because the teachers aren't striking because of cuts, as has been explained
you went to a party full of teachers and the conversation was largely based around... teaching? no shit, I bet if I went to a party full of squaddies the conversation would centre around cross dressing and naked male mud wrestling
No. My point was that what they all talked about was grotesque work loads and being so hard done by.
Teaching is really hard work. I've worked in the private sector all my life and I've never met anyone who worked as hard as my mum did when she was a primary school teacher. Not even close. I've worked with plenty of people who've said teachers are lazy and should get proper jobs, all while doing significantly less work than my mum and the other teachers I knew at her school, often for four or five times the salary.
The problems with the education system at the moment are also a lot more complex than just teachers wanting more money and less demanding hours. The whole profession is being decimated by Michael Gove and his government. It's been getting more and more difficult for teachers to actually create or express themselves over the past couple of decades, and we're now getting to a point where they may as well sit the kids down in front of a video and have a security guard standing at the back of the room. Maybe that's the end game of the whole policy - who knows? But teachers offer a hell of a lot more than that if you allow them to, and it's so depressing that so few people are seeing what's happening in the education system, and the negative impact it is having on the quality of their children's education, and so many people fall for the anti-teacher rhetoric in the tabloids.
I also think the most important point has to do with your last paragraph. Soldiers are getting a raw deal at the moment. Firefighters are getting a raw deal at the moment. The NHS is getting a raw deal at the moment. Millions of workers, both public sector and private sector, have found their lives are much more difficult under this government. Many have lost their jobs. Many have lost their homes. And yet every time anyone takes a stand against the government's actions, there's a queue of people telling them 'Well I've got it just as bad so stop complaining' or 'You're plight is nothing compared to the plight of the _______'.
The government must be absolutely delighted it's panning out that way. They can carry out one of the most overtly ideological political moves in British history, and the only people who can stop them are too busy pointing at what their neighbours have got. It's ludicrous.
but this...is bullseye
and I'm not saying they shouldn't exercise their right to strike. In-fact you're absolutely right, i'm just trying to get to the bottom of why it's more often teachers than other professions. Sure, nothing is perfect and we get screwed over. Everyone complains, but the teachers do something a bit more about it. I'm just curious as to why.
and they understand what a fundamental bedrock of a just society it is that children of all backgrounds have access to a good quality education ...maybe?
just throwing that out there as a possibility
given that they are are a highly unionised public sector profession, is it really more often teachers than other professions?
If memory serves, and I haven't got the statistics to hand, teachers have gone on strike something like half a dozen times in the past 16 years.
how are you supposed to be thinking about putting kids/work/yourself into any sort of priority order if you're overworked and underpaid? You'll be too busy being angry and flipping out to teach the kids properly. If you're happy and feel valued that's going to be passed on to them
And the whole motivation to becoming a teacher shouldn't be to have an easy life and to earn lots of money. You should expect to work and work hard for your money. If you're dedicated to your job you'll probably create more work for yourself and constantly be busy so it shouldn't really be here nor there imo.
Why did you want to go into the armed forces?
to help further the careers of my men and train and operate with some of the best trained soldiers in the world in a variety of amazing countries. Plus it offers a lifestyle that defines your life, you live there, eat there, live with everyone.
its the only way to get a good debate going on this website.
that's not what's happening.
You can't get a straight answer here if you just say one opinion because no matter what it is someone will always disagree with it and be pretty damn petty about it all, because there's a lot of those types here.If you really want a discussion and to get to the nub of the matter it involves a little persuasion.
he is our superior!
get off my nubs
And most teachers expect to work and work hard for their money. 50 hour weeks plus are pretty much a given if you're full-time. And most teachers create heaps more work for themselves because they want to give kids the best education they can. The problem comes when the expectations of Ofsted and the government are so out of kilter with what actually makes a successful class and a positive learning environment that circumstances make it utterly impossible to do your job well.
Of course a bunch of soldiers are going to do something wrong. It's in their nature and it happens frequently, but they are punished for it. I'd also point out that things like this are a minority. I could pull up numerous articles about teachers who abuse their position, but I haven't because it isn't relevant to what i'm saying here and neither is what you have just written.
Has a new instalment of "Schoolgirl Sluts" been released?
should public sector workers be treated similarly to private sector workers?
or as people to occupy children so that others can go out and work?
I dont think my teachers, Aged 12 upwards, were really anything to do with knowledge aquisition
what are you doing exactly? what has this got to do with what you are saying about understanding global economies?
secondary school was almost the opposite
not myself, how can that be arrogant?
and yet you chose another method
'anything to do with knowledge acquisition'. You just miraculously absorbed knowledge from everywhere and everyone else and a formal education was nothing to do with that.
they read out words that we had to write down so fast that my hand ached and i ended up with aching hands. They seemed to randomly ascribe praise or criticism.
They applied illogic and unjust judgements without explanation.
They did not encourage.
I did NOT miraculously absorb knowledge, I read FUCKING BOOKS.
HOW FUCKING MIRACULOUS IS THAT???
there needless insulting of someone else.
If they didnt fuck with my mind so much I could have read more FUCKING BOOKS.
Seriously I do not take my time out to insult and make snide remrks about you or other Disers....perhap in the future this is what i will do.....pick on others
FUCK YOU YOU ARSEHOLE!
to give them a taste of their own medicine I didnt, basically because I am a reasonable human being. :)
..but things are different now.
it is valid to critise my anecdotal sample size.
So there is nowt to incur my wrath there, obviously what you say is valid, I am sure that they are not all vindictive vain bullies, but in my experience they were (at secondary school) (although it could have just been cos they were male teachers there??) whatever....the point is that they were not at all helpful towards my learning o education, which is why my original post was not arrogant, because I loved books and reading and learning.
but that was largely my experience of school 8 or 9 years ago, especially outside of the top sets and especially in dispensable subjects. geography consisted of colouring in maps and watching dante's inferno on video over and over again.
and then getting marks in geography according to how neat the colouring in was :(
I realise that that was in the past, but in my experience with my sons it appears that there is an awfully large amount of reliance on using a printer and us having to produce a lot of projects on pc, and when I suggest NOT using so much printer resource they could do their homework by other means I am given the indication that they cannot. I have met their teachers and I find some of them to be fine.......but the fucking reports are appalling (not my sons individual reports, but the lack of information contained within the reports.
My eldest, in his sixth form years, chose not to go to various lessons or assemblies, despite being told to go by teachers, as he pointed out to them (and i was so proud of him for doing this) He brings up their grade level and he could spend the time more productively in other ways, when they would challenge him on this, he would confirm that rather than do 'general studies' lessons he was better off continuing to learn Japanese (off his own bat) and learning to play more Chopin or Beethoven piano pieces (he could have gone to do music or japanese at university, which he learnt himself, but he did something more job bankable....wish I had done something like that at school.
There are a number of reasons.
For some it is the cack-handed way that Gove is ignoring the majority of expert advice and ripping into the national curriculum and qualifications.
For some it is because, since Gove abolished the GTC, there has been no dialogue between the professionals (ie teachers) and the government. A strange situation and one that Gove wants to maintain.
For some it is to do with pensions. Unions calculate that there should be sufficient money in the pot without having to increase contributions. Gove and co says that is wrong, but refuse to share any of their data or calculations.
Some were concerned about pay progressions, this was largely because the original schemes had been torn up, without putting anything else in place. I think most people would be concerned in a similar situation.
The vast majority of teachers are too concerned with working conditions or paperwork.
However, the majority are striking because they heard it would piss you off, and they think you are a twat.
i'm just utterly perplexed by it all and what motivates some cretins in this universe.
You started off saying you had no axe to grind with teachers and that you wanted to be informed about some of the reasons behind the strike
You are informed by various people about the various reasons
You don't argue that these reasons are the wrong reasons
Something happens in your head with all this information. In my mind the camera zooms in on your forehead which becomes transparent and inside the audience see's a big strong soldier with your face and a puny teacher in a tweed jacket with a little sign that says 'more money please'. The big strong soldier that is you shoots the teacher in the face. Fast forward and you're crab-walking up to buckingham palace to a heroes welcome, the crowd are waving banners saying "no more lazy teachers! Thank you!".
Camera zooms out to your face and you're grinning.
Then you call teachers cretins.
In my experience of posting here, which has a colourful history to it, you can't put it all in the opening thread.I'm still curious about it all, but I also think that some teachers are cretins. It just came out when it needed to.
so he'll be screaming in the face of some spotty teenager with half a GCSE to do his shooting for him
in fact, this is what the whole thing boils down to ... he cannot abide these cretinous teachers disobeying orders from their superiors ... just isn't compatible with his programming
all the same
Man, sometimes you just come across on here as an out-and-out psychopath.
I'm genuinely a pretty normal person. Not too internet savvy, but normal enough. Many here have met me and I've had a great time with them. Just often, views don't always aline. I'm not trying to look like a dick, even if that's what's happening. I know i'm talking out my depth with teaching because i'm not educated enough on it hence all the questions. Maybe that's where the mixed messages are coming from......
so, sorry you think i'm a psychopath? Continue
Its just all the army talk... 1800hrs... operations... all that stuff. You seem a bit indoctrinated.
purely because you have to use it everyday at work, therefore it just becomes second nature to say it. It doesn't mean i'm indoctrinated at all.
Here to give the British Army scene a kick up the arse. Proper crewcuts. Real gunshots.
i'm sure there are plenty of other organisations that use their own terminology, which then becomes a part of their every day speech. It's not indoctrination.
is that, even in the context of the cuts to army funding, the government still seems to have a great deal of respect and admiration for the role of the soldier and probably - if anything - soldiers are more valued by the government and society than they were ten years ago.
Education is unique in that - even more so that Doctors and the NHS - it's being run by someone who has no experience of education but seems to have made a very clear ideological decision that he doesn't like and doesn't trust teachers, ignores ideas and research into best practice in the profession and denigrates and dismisses anyone who challenges his ideas. I spent a year working as a teacher and, at the moment, would not go near a teaching role again. I utterly loved working with students but it's incredibly depressing working in a profession where the structures for running the profession seem to be based around a dislike and a distrust for what you do and an assumption that you're hopeless at your job unless you can prove otherwise.
To me it's not about the pay, not exactly about the paperwork and certainly not about the comical idea that teachers are scared of hard work (I worked far harder as a teacher than any job I've ever done but nowhere near most of my colleagues who were far more committed to teaching than I was, and nowhere, nowhere, nowhere near as hard as primary or secondary school teachers I know work (I was teaching further education). Nonetheless I'd end up working unpaid all day for at least one day over my weekends and working more than twice what I was contracted to do)
But, as I say, all that would be bearable if every team meeting, one-to-one session and work discussion wasn't shaped by the spectre of the Secretary of State for Education, Ofsted and - due to fear of the above - the senior managers of schools and local authorities constantly repeating the mantra of 'your're shit and we're going to fail'. Pay, pensions and everything else aside, it's an utterly horrible profession to work in.
It's pretty much the lifeblood of a society. Your post has deflated me even more than I was already about the whole situation. And some of my favourite friends are going into teaching at the moment and it's awful to see them slowly realise what they're getting into. But at the same time, thank God good people are still going into it. I don't even know what to think about it anymore.
as internal politics are governed by relationship to the head, and a clear hierarchy usually emerges, in which proximity to executive power engenders scorn of the lower orders
if I ever start as a state teacher (which I'm strongly considering upon finishing a couple of projects) then I'll basically round up all the other relative newcomers on my first day and announce that we're not taking shit from anybody, and that if one of us is treated badly we're all complaining. this way I'd quickly root out the Quislings at least :D
hierarchies are the bane of any sincere attempt to do one's fellow human beings a service. are there any schools without headteachers?
And it is specifically this government, not some inclination common to teachers- 'we' hardly heard a peep out of the profession until Big Dave came along.
Anyone with even the most rudimentary knowledge or understanding of education knows that every single fucking policy the Coalition have enacted (yesterday's Pupil Premium being a great example) is a declaration of war against children, particularly the most vulnerable.
They have no economic clout. Them striking causes most parents a massive headache about childcare/taking days off work etc. They cause children to miss out on learning stuff. Put these three things together, and that's before you even layer on top the stuff about pensions etc., and you've got a pretty potent case for not going on strike. The people you want to listen to you aren't going to - the people whose children you ultimately want to improve conditions for aren't going to like you for it. Lose lose.
I think it's remarkable that teachers go on strike at all. And I think that it shows the utter desperation that most teachers feel that they are compelled to strike on certain issues, given all of the above. If teachers feel the need to strike in this country - we have to ask ourselves some serious questions about how education is being governed.
without enough members at our school to actually close it. Most of the teachers on strike still came in, unpaid, and taught their Year 11 and Year 13 students.
Top 5 reasons to strike
1) The strike will demonstrate the strength of feeling among teachers to Michael Gove and his colleagues and strengthen the hand of our negotiators. It will build on the successful North West strike on 27 June when the vast majority of schools in the region were closed.
2) Strike action has an effect – pension strikes in 2011 gained an 8% increase in the funding for pensions. That pension increase (even though it isn’t enough) will - every single year - be worth much more than the day’s pay lost through striking.
3) Parents are very supportive of NUT positions. A 2013 YouGov poll for the NUT showed that 60% support the continuation of a national pay system for teachers. Many head teachers and governors support us too. Our campaign is in the long-term interests of teachers and children. The 2013 YouGov poll also showed that only 8% of parents think this Government has made a positive impact on the education system.
4) Solid support will also help persuade the School Teachers’ Review Body to reject Gove’s plans for longer working hours and cuts to protections on cover and PPA time. Successful action will help secure an acceptable pay and conditions framework.
5) Successful joint strike action with the NASUWT will bring NUT and NASUWT members together and build solidarity in your workplace and beyond.
and it made for some good comedy.
say taking up a covered position in a BHS tower instead of setting up a thread with an obviously aggressive tone and wandering around it making snarky, sulky comments at random like you do, maybe people wouldn't have felt obliged to repeatedly IED him.
so it's not surprising that's the ground the debate's starting at for a lot of people. Especially... people who might not be entirely inclined to research things before offering an opinion.
Chris does at least seem willing to acknowledge his own ignorance and ask for explanations, so that's a start.
same shit every time there's a strike. I'm surprised they even get a junior minister to make a statement these days, they should just record one and re-use it each time. "Offered a more than fair deal...parents and children who are suffering...gold plated pensions...competitive salaries for a competitive marketplace...get bodies around the table...tape ends".
I don't. I've read everything and replied where appropriate. Do you want me to go to every single one and say thank you?? I'm sure the person who wrote something knows that I've been reading this.
You didn't want to be in this thread from the start. You made it abundantly clear. Disappear. Just go. It's fine. You don't have to be here.
only posting on it when i'm either stopping for a coffee or whatever and i'm on my phone. So, I simply wouldn't have the time to respond to everything anyway. Even though I don't have to.
Imagine you were one of the face shootees and your face shooter said he would get round to shooting your face after he's had a wee go on the internet and a cappuccino.
If you would prefer a different example, my ex is a primary teacher. Her first school was in Longsight, slap bang in the middle of the infamous Manchester gun triangle, just after a couple of gangsters had been released from prison. The local population has a higher than average number of immigrant families and is a very deprived area. When there's kids starting school having fled from Somalia weeks before, not speaking a word of English and there's not enough money in the budget to provide enough translators for each class, is it the teacher's fault that they struggle? Clearly it isn't. Now, would you say that the teachers at this school don't deserve to be paid as well as the teachers at the school she works at now, in a leafy, affluent Cheshire suburb? Of course not.
the last time the teachers went on strike we had this thread with you throwing around the same lazy generalisations and the situation was explained to you. But to be fair they're striking for different reasons this time
You asked for clarification on why teachers were striking
1617 hours - 2206 hours yesterday:
You received several reasoned and balanced explanations that showed the difficult situation teachers were being put in.
2207 hours yesterday:
"i'm just utterly perplexed by it all and what motivates some cretins in this universe."
So yes. It looks like you do.
because people asked why i was making the thread etc and explained why. I understand what people have written. Don't be facetious, it doesn't go well after what was quite a well worded and educated response.
talked about why teachers were striking. quakerstoy wrote it - it's still up there for all to see.
It was in reply to his aggressive tone at the end of what he said. It completely undermined what he said as credible, because he was clearly on here to call me a twat. I responded to that. What do you want me to do? 'Oh thanks for the reply there, yeah cheers.'
I'll leave it there.
we can talk about this more offline if you wish. You do understand what i'm saying. You're just being a bit of a bell.
hoping its the start of a sea-change in public opinion about ol' yes_