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there's a link on the right of that page to this
but JFC I can't read something from that site and assume it's true.
It seems to be the internet equivalent of one of those 10p REAL LIFE STORY MY BOYFRIEND WAS MEANT TO MARRY ME BUT INSTEAD HE FUCKED A HORSE magazines.
the fact you don't like the look of the website is a bullshit reason to doubt her.
According to Science, I Think I'm Hotter Than I Actually Am
A Third Of The People Who Attended My Wedding Didn't Give Me A Gift -- What's Up With That?
I've Spent More Than $55,000 On Childcare So Far, And It's Going To Cost HOW MUCH To Send My 8-Year-Old To Summer Camp?!
and in the "It happened to me section" (of which this story is a part of)
It Happened To Me: My Middle School Nurse Shamed Me For Having Big Boobs
It Happened To Me: I Accidentally Went On Date With A Presumed-Gay Canadian C-List Celebrity Who Creepily Proved He Isn't Gay
i dunno why this should matter at all
You just have to take into account the context of the publication.
Here is a list of actual front pages from the Sunday Sport Newspaper
All of these had "eye witness" accounts and testamonies yet none are true.
I KNEW there'd be something in this thread for me if I just hung in there
living in a culture where rape victims are routinely met with skepticism, and where putting 'my boyfriend fucked a horse' and 'i was raped by a coworker and then disbelieved' into the same category of 'things to take with a pinch of salt' is part of that culture
All I am saying is that the site does not look to be what I would class as a reputable news site. It is the site itself that "should be taken with a pinch of salt". If this was a news story on the Times or The BBC News website then we wiuld not be having this discussion
and i'm not sure what world you're living in, spaceman, but in my experience this conversation is had all over the internet almost every time a rape story makes it onto reputable news sites
I realise that my focusing on the site itself rather than the content of the article was not relevant in the context of this thread.
I'll leave you to it.
i'm not speculating about the intention of thewarn's post or the undoubtedly witty and astute point it was *trying* to make. all i'm saying is that using the words 'if it's true' and 'i can't read something from that site and assume it's true', *regardless of the intended point*, are problematic and dismissive when applied to a completely plausible first-person story about being raped and disbelieved, BECAUSE OF THE CONTEXT of it being a story that is staggeringly common but only very occasionally makes it to the status of widely accepted, courtroom-stamped, BBC-verified truth (and even then is usually still subject to skepticism). you can disagree with that if you want but please don't act as if i'm misinterpreting something unless you'd like to clarify what it is
I don't disagree with you. Perhaps we can just agree that the tacky, sensationalist website was unworthy of the subject matter and be friends?
I'm supposed to be swotting up for a job interview.
my point is that the comment is problematic when we're talking about an article about rape in a way that it wouldn't be about some other story that was actually ridiculous or worthy of skepticism
i do realise you're one of the ones who doesn't do discussion beyond pithy comments so this is silly, but whatevs
It was wrong of us to glibly dismiss out of hand the story just because it was on a shit website.
Can we just ban thewarn or something?
1. which part of this particular story do you find implausible?
2. woman writes article about the (incredibly common) experience of being raped and then disbelieved; men on website are like 'can't assume it's true though'. really great work guys.
woman judges all men on website based on the views of the few.
it's commonly accepted to use the term 'men'
let's try and round this off before DarwinDude gets here.
The story may be true and if so is awful. I hope the author gets justice I really do. I think the ONLY point raised by "the men" (thewarn - lol) is that the website is awful tawdry jeremy kyle stuff and should be taken with a pinch of salt.
it still describes something that happens to large and significant number of women every single day, and so any expression of scepticism is unwise.
I've never seen this website before today. The home page has an article entitled 'I Tested Three Antique Vibrators And Here's What They Did To My Junk'. lol.
and that is A REALLY MASSIVE FUCKING PROBLEM
this website is just full of massive oversensitive crybaby men who start kneejerk wailing whenever someone criticises them
round THAT off
You're sounding a little hysterical about this, mate. Maybe you should just calm down?
Get your hot pop corn here and enjoy the show!!
But what a terrible story, that poor woman. she has been brave enough to put her name and face to this, it is such a shame that the apologists are already questioning it. I'm sure in the fullness of time Disney and the police will have to properly investigate this properly.
Where in this thread are there rape apologists? Don't be ridiculous.
people shouldn't try to discuss anything remotely serious on DiS.
thanks for listening xx
trigger warning guys
and recent allegations about possible child abuse on one of their cruise ships.
Good joke though!
read another story on there, this one
the comments in the forum she links to are just......wow.....so, so aggressive/vile over absolutely nothing
I'm signing up.
So long ya pussies!
which almost makes up for the complete batshit crazy opinions
Weirdly enough it hasn't really affected me.
The fact that you think this is a helpful or appropriate addition to this thread right now suggests to me that perhaps it has affected you more than you realise. Either that or you just exercise poor judgement, deliberately or not.
This thread will not help this woman, I was merely telling an anecdote related to the subject matter.
and who maybe haven't got off quite so lightly as you have in terms of recovery form the experience. But dont worry, so long as you're ok!!
No need to misinterpret me! I would never diminish someone's experience of any form of abuse, all pain and sorrow is subjective and nobody deserves to have their trauma or misery dismissed.
Of course, I'm really glad that you seem ok despite your experience of that. x
But typing on a ipad is a pain and I just word things however they come out and get it done with.
I dunno I think rape is maybe too strong a word, not the word I should really use for it even if it would technically legally be classed as such. I take it back, not rape.
would guess how it panned out with 90% accuracy again
Although I sympathise, the article does seem to point the finger at them a bit. It's obviously a wider societal problem, and like all societal problems it needs open and honest discourse from both sides.
I see more and more of these accounts of rape online these days, and while that's a good thing for awareness, I hate the way the comments sections devolve into this kind of men vs. women war where anyone suggesting the situation might not be completely black and white is seen as supporting rape. Most sexual encounters don't happen by pre-written contract and we need more full and frank discussion of what constitutes consent. Of course a no is a no, but these borderline cases where there is no struggle, shock/paralysis, alcohol involved on both sides - I can understand how it might be a very thorny issue to be dealt with legally.
I'm not trying to troll anyone here, and eagerly await your reasons why I'm wrong and a terrible person.
also calling it a "borderline case" is massively stupid and you should probably rethink that
But rape accusations are serious, and can follow a person around even if they're acquitted. But you're doing it again, responding in emotive terms not conducive to open and honest discourse.
you said something wrong, i told you it was wrong
I'd call that a fairly emotive reaction tbf
i give up. it shouldn't need explaining.
and it sounds incredibly immature.
I'm in that 'one side' and fully admit that there is a problem, as would many others. But closing down discussion like that just drives the 'sides' further apart.
Wrong. Noone here denies there's a problem. Try again.
and I think you're spot on. It's easy to get really caught up in issues like this, especially considering the intensely personal and shocking nature of it. A lot of room for misinterpretation. And people are far too quick to jump down peoples throats (and on this website too). Things like the really cheap shot at DD above make discussing stuff like this a waste of time, because it just becomes a war of "I'm more holier-than-thou" and it's a bit shit. If we could all take a deep breath and count to 10 before posting it would be great.
Due to the nature of the website it's easy to be pretty skeptical of something like this, especially considering the sensationalist headline, but it was most likely the editor who picked that. If we ignore all of that, we're left with an account that sounds all too familiar, which in itself is pretty disturbing.
Also, can we please stop throwing around the term "rape apologists"? Nobody here is questioning that stuff like this happens. Nobody here is questioning that it's wrong and that we need to do something about it. Attacking people doesn't solve this problem. It just alienates positive discourse.
It's difficult to talk about these things without sounding like a massive arsehole, but if you'll allow me to be even more honest, just for one post.
I think there's a lot of pressure on men to be masculine, dominant and spontaneous. I've been explicitly told by an ex-girlfriend that it's 'a turn-off when you [I] ask for it'. I've also been with a girl who liked being held down hard during sex, choked, etc. (though I couldn't ever bring myself to do it), and have had others they can't remember sexual encounters because of alcohol and don't seem to really mind. These girls have told me of their preferences before we did the deed and there's always been the big green light before commencing. I'm willing to accept that these ladies may have been a bit loopy and that this isn't the norm. But it makes me wonder where the line is drawn. I don't think most people would appreciate their partner saying 'can we have sex now, please', and if there is alcohol involved, a whisperered 'no' might be missed, if, as some victims say, they are paralysed by fear or shock, it might be interpreted as consent. That's what I mean by a borderline case, and I don't think you'd have to be a sexual predator to be caught out by it. Obviously aggravated rape is a whole different kettle of fish.
that the majority of rapes are committed by a small number of repeat offenders, and that those rapists - who are very much not confused about what they are doing - *consciously exploit* all the narratives of confusion and grey areas and borderline cases to evade detection. i'm not saying that there has never been such a thing as an accidental rapist, and i'm not saying it's something we should never ever discuss (and the possibility of that scenario, even if it's far less common than many people seem to think, is among the reasons why a better understanding of enthusiastic consent is a vital thing to work on); what i am saying is that, in a world where steubenville happened, where the *videotaped gang rape of a passed-out teenage girl* is discussed in terms of grey areas and whose-fault-was-it-really and how-could-they-really-KNOW-she-didn't-want-it by a scary proportion of mainstream media coverage, to continually bring up those tropes in every discussion of a rape case as if they are always relevant is dangerous diversionary bullshit
Would I put the rapist described in the article in the same category? Without any further information, I'm not sure - how can anyone be, apart from the two people involved?
Maybe I'm wrong. I just wanted to offer a counterpoint to the soundbytes from opposing ends of the debate that seem to dominate commentary on this, or any other, social issue.
the media coverage of the steubenville sentence prominently featured horror at how the lives of such promising young men had been destroyed (cf CNN). it seems easy to dismiss this as something no 'reasonable' person would think (but that of course any doubts *you* have about rape stories are much more reasonable), but 'reasonable' becomes pretty meaningless when lots and lots and LOTS of people do think and say and perpetuate this shit (including the multiple teenagers who watched, participated and laughed at that crime, and the people who flooded the victim with online abuse, and the quarter of people in the UK who think a woman is to blame for being raped if she's wearing sexy clothes or likes to sleep around). the reason these attitudes are so unreasonably common is that so much of our cultural discourse around rape makes them seem reasonable to a large number of people, and yes, that discourse includes bringing up 'but what about grey areas and alcohol???' every time a rape is discussed
if you're even going to suggest that this is in any way a grey area, you are part of the problem. that is what the entire article is ABOUT.
because i do understand that it can be hard not to be incredulous that so many people really do hold these views when you're not exposed to them very much
In a way that a sustained, videotaped sexual attack on an unconscious woman is a much more black-and-white case than a private incident between two people. But, as I knew would happen from the moment I clicked send on my first post, you're making me feel like an apologist now, so I must respectfully bow out and hopefully we'll all be really embarrassed come the morning.
in the sense that she said no, then questions (doubts herself) over whether or not she objected loudly enough, but ultimately does point the finger at him. she seems to acknowledge that the line of reasoning that led her to even questioning herself was borne out of fear from the society around her that is unsympathetic to those who have been raped.
i'm not saying that it's not within the realm of possibility that she literally wasn't heard, but i think the chances are low and it's not helpful to attribute statistically unlikely "what-ifs" to these things at an unreasonably frequent rate (which they often are)
There sure is. This actually really hits home for me. If I'll get personal for a bit, I went out with someone last year who was the same. Into rough sex, choking, hair pulled, that kind of thing. She said "I like being mishandled a bit every now and then." This was a complete contrast to my previous long-term relationship, so was a bit of a shock to me. But fair enough. I'm not one to discriminate sexual preference. But as you say, I couldn't help but feel a bit unsettled by it. Because there were aspects of her past that made the violent part of it a bit much for me. Anyway, just as I thought things were going really well, we'd been together for a few months (known each other for about a year) she dumped me because she was still in love with her ex and thought we were moving too fast. I heard from friends that the reason she gave them was that I was "Too emotional." Hmm. So yeah. That's that. Should've been less of an indie-virgin-bedwetter I guess. Looking back, it was a very unhealthy relationship, surprised it lasted as long as it did. I suppose the point of this post was to say that yeah, there does seem to be a lot of pressure on us to be masculine, even if it's quite clearly overstepping the line.
but yeah obviously things would be much better for both sexually submissive and sexually dominant people (and the people that sleep with them) if we all got a lot better at communicating boundaries and enthusiastic consent
i'd usually be into that kind of thing, but i think because i knew a lot about her past and her experience with abuse i felt like i was treading on broken glass. absolutely, people use the excuse of it being "an awkward thing to talk about" but to be honest, if you find talking about that kind of thing with your sexual partner awkward, then you shouldn't really be sleeping together.
i would like you to point out where i, as the main straight-up card-carrying member of the krazy feminist krew that participated in this thread, attacked anyone or jumped down throats or got (gasp) over-emotive, as opposed to just asking some questions and pointing out some problems, right up until the CALM DOWN NOW LADIES schtick was wheeled out. this idea that those of us who tend to involve ourselves in these things are all raging and attacky and incapable of pointing out problems in a reasoned way is actually mostly just a bullshit fantasy that then becomes a self-perpetuating reality when, every time someone takes issue with this shit, they get CALM DOWN LADIES
people on both sides were taking pot-shots that were pretty unnecessary. Yeah stuff like "let's try and round this off before DarwinDude gets here." was condescending and unnecessary, and pretty offensive under the circumstances. Obviously it's easier said than done with the whole 'lets try not to jump down peoples throats and generalizing all men as cunts' considering how frustrating it is with how quick to dismiss people on here are, but the thing is you alienate the people you're trying to convince when with shots like that. When you start calling people crybabies it just makes the crybabies ignore you more and then take you less seriously. Which completely ruins the point of why we discuss this in the first place.
BTW I hope this post doesn't come across as me attacking you, I agree with you, I just think there's a better way of going about it. Obviously you must get really sick of hearing the same bullshit day in day out from people who shrug this kind of thing off and you must be losing your patience. I can understand that.
there's a point at which it's not even worth trying to distance yourself from the weird fantasy crazy-angry-unreasonable narrative anymore
i've seen loads of people slowly, grudgingly change their minds in my time as a crazy-angry-unreasonable attacker of all men. definitely more than the people who are always like 'guys this is so unproductive, let's just all be calm and reasonable friends with carefully balanced viewpoints'
rather than forcing people to change their minds with irrefutable arguments.
That's how we understand each other.
Gonna step away from the computer for a bit and go for a walk before I lose my mind
If you drill down into it there's plenty to find abhorrent and distressing about Williams' comments (wonder how accurate and fair the reporting of them is though), but all she's doing is reflecting the views and attitudes of the world she lives in. It's distressing that we're tacitly (and all too often it's not even that subtle) taught to consider rape victims and allegations in the terms Williams does.
I'd estimate that 99% of the replies in these periodic 'clusterfuck'threads stem from people, and let's be honest specifically men, not being able to differentiate between contributing to rape culture and actually being, or having an inclination to be, a rapist.
The first time I've mentioned on here that I've been raped (merely to point out how unfair it is that people on here continually try to silence me in these threads, as if im supposed to let you guys be the ones who decide how to talk about something that affects like 1 in 5 women) and someone makes a joke. He might try to say he didn't know what I was referring to but I find that pretty incredible. Someone posting :D below it too.
I deal with a lot of the sexism and crap I get on here because i think it can be productive and a lot of people on here are good. But I don't think anyone should have to accept being bullied or undermined as a rape victim. Have your discussion about whether or not you think this has happened without me cause I'm not gonna read it and I have absolutely no cause for justifying myself to any of you.
and because you said 'Another thread where someone tells me I'm not allowed to discuss a subject that affects me on a daily basis'. I thought you were talking generally about being a woman so I made a joke that inferred you were talking about working at Disney World affecting you on a daily basis.
In hindsight this might seem a bit crass and misplaced and I apologise for any offence or hurt this might have caused as that certainly wasn't my intention.
But even if I was just referring to the constant relentless bullshit I get on here as a woman, I don't see how that makes it ok.
You're by no means the only person I'm talking about here - it's endemic.