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clicked and realised you don't mean canadian charcoal pit
such a niche injoke to post on here.
yeah the bands not getting paid, and YOU might not have been to do the posters, and YOU might not have been paid to build their website, and YOU mightn't have been paid to write about them, but you know who is getting paid - ME!
I often used to just chat up the girl on the door and in exchange would/had let many of them into nights that I had/was going to, held anyway.
Sometimes though I held onto my gf's shirttails for slightly bigger gigs cos she was a musical journalist
1) Only Rupert Grint gets to decide what is and is not punk.
2) I generally take a 'no guestlist' approach as 9 times out of ten i'm going to be losing money as it is. Especially when putting on noise stuff, even when the acts play for free, you can still lose out after you've hired the venue, paid the sound guy etc. The 'no guestlist' approach is generally about minimising losses rather than maximising profits.
3) The exceptions are that I will generally try and give the band a couple of guestlist slots, but if they take the piss I just say that they can have as many free places as they like, but that i'll have to lower their performance fee accordingly.
4) I will generally let people in for free if I know them personally and know that they really want to be there but can't afford it at the time. When you're involved in what is a pretty tiny 'scene' anyway, it's counterproductive to that scene's longevity to exclude people from it.
But no, that's more in reference to when I put higher profile bands on that want an actual fee, rather than just £20 for a cab home.
also - good on you providing travel costs to the bands
AND making me do the door.
Part of the reason I like punk.
people doing stuff for you for free and then wanting to see a gig for free is less punk though
is about how he wants an unpaid intern
i posted the link without comment and didn't miss the irony there
first time he tried to refuse to let our wives/girlfriends in for free. at a gig that he didn't pay us for, complaining that he was "essentially paying for them to get in"
bearing in mind that they were only there to give us support, and, were we not playing, would 100% certainly not have been there, this seemed pretty counterproductive.
the only time i put on a paid-for gig, i kept the guestlist down to just people who had been directly involved with putting on the show, didn't even put the girl i was seeing on it (she was later my girlfriend for 3 years anyway. but joeymahone was on the door and let her in for free anyway). but then i was only charging £3.99, and paying the bands fairly decently.
was that some kind of schtick?
i took my penny jar to the gig for the float
Must have been having an off day. I usually make everyone pay.
<<what? you're not on the list? must be a mistake soz>>
i hate him
holyroarrecords replied to your post: Guestlist isn’t punk
what do you think about someone in my situation, where i have worked on a band and put in thousands of pounds into them, should i have to pay to see them, even though it is part of my job?
I get where you’re coming from, but where do you draw a line on this? Should a small label which is co-run by three or more people get all three in for free, each with a +1? Then an intern for the label gets in too, then the band separately has someone that does their press, a booking agent and whoever else, let’s say the journo that got them an Introducing feature in Kerrang too.
Other labels will put on shows that are paid entry and I will pay to go to them, let’s have it work both ways?
Yes, you’ve been doing this longer than me and put more money into it, I’ve been doing it for five years and lost hundreds of pounds. Bands on your label have stayed at my house and I’ve then paid to go to the show.
If you send me an e-mail before a show and ask, I will probably say yes/”I would rather you were there and not paying, than than not there and not paying. But I’d rather you were there and paying.” If you’re going to ask, I’ll leave it up to you if you want to come and if you want to be on the “list”, but I’d rather you didn’t.
The blagging culture is obscene in hardcore. Not sure I agree that industry people shouldn't be getting in for free, it is part of the job.
Doesn't he know that music industry types are always broke?
of fucking course the people who work on the sorts of bands he's putting on don't have expense accounts you willy
but i still don't think they should get anything for free. i remember once not being able to restrain myself from hugging action beat when someone from domino was on the blag for a cd in an email and they replied with an invoice.
but he's whining about the bands' labels, not a&r people looking to sign them
is that when you read this + his intern requesting post, he keeps on saying i've never made any money and therefore it's a hobby and so i don't need to pay you to work for me, pay bands to play for me or let anyone in on guest.
There's something in the back of my mind that wants to say maybe stop doing your hobby so badly and let someone else handle it much better.
You can be a great promoter, but when you're putting on mostly 'new' bands that don't have a following or any records out etc there's only so much you can do.
You need people who promote gigs as a hobby to support the bands who also do it as a hobby (they might go on to 'make it' one day, but everyone has to start at the bottom).
It's not (always) always a case of doing a hobby badly. Look at places like Bull & Gate, they couldn't make it work putting on these kinds of starter bands and you can't in all fairness say they didn't give it their all.
I mean I don't know the promoter so don't know he's putting on but I've frequently not made money from gigs simply because I was putting on people who aren't very well known and don't pull massive crowds (and 'cos I tended to split any profit amongst the bands) - but they were still the gigs I wanted to put on, there was a decent-ish and the people who were there enjoyed it so I wouldn't call those gigs disasters...
I would guess
Loved the promoters but it was one of those bars where you felt like the owners actively disliked all this bloody trade those kids brought in or something.
everyone is always wrong about this no matter which side they take
this sort of thing really matters when we're talking about the health of local music scenes. the number of great bands i know that quit just because they couldn't be arsed with not being paid because people can't be arsed going to gigs if they can't get a guest list. it's bollocks. fucking cunts wanting something for free all the time. there was an album launch for my mate dan a few months ago and (maybe someone will back me up) i'm not exaggerating when i say that he is just THE BEST guitarist. incredible show. £3 and people were trying to blag in free. the place it was at, you couldn't even get a pint for three quid. utter fucking cunts. people that put gigs on have enough to worry about. just pay them.
that just sounds like people don't really want to go to the gig, and are only going to support their mates.
if they really want to support him they can pay him (like i have done, innumerable times over the last 15 years) so that he can keep making music. if people don't want to go to the gig then they shouldn't go. don't support music that isn't good just because it's your mates. that's just a waste of time
You get some gigs that are really populated with music fans but I'd say there are just as many where the majority of the audience are there because of knowing someone who plays and likely wouldn't make the effort to come to *that* particular gig otherwise.
and on how much the people involved have to lose.
I don't know anything about this promoter but if we're assuming he's only trying to cover his costs of promotion and paying the bands then I can generally see his grievance. That said, I've always let the girlfriends/boyfriends of bands in for free with them if they've been made known to me.
The flipside to that is I've tended to pay for those friends of mine who I know wouldn't be there otherwise, because I know they're in financial straits and I also don't see it as the promoter's problem to deal with.
Like he specifically mentions people who he hasn't paid to help put things on asking to get in for free. If you're going to ask people to do things for free, don't have a little cry about it when they ask for something in return. This is the least punk blog post I've ever read. The LEAST punk
Can you tell me where he specifically mentions people he hasn't paid to help him? Or is this in a different blog post?
He sounds like a bit of a hypocrite to me anyway. Certainly NOT PUNK
''Look around you, look at the way this is run and the people that come to shows like this and pay for it. It’s great if you actively support bands through some channel outside of buying their music and going to shows, but: writing about them on yr blog, playing shows with them in the past, putting them on a show, being a mate, being a family member, designing their website, yr interviewing the band that night…none of these things should give you a sense of entitlement. It’s fair to say that at a lot of punk/DIY shows, the MAJORITY of people that have gone to the show and paid, have done something productive for a band playing at some point, that is truly valued obviously''
A LOT of these things will be actively promoting the gig, ie website, interviews, blog posts (to a certain extent). If these things don't happen, no one comes to yr stupid gig. Stop crying and suck it up
Also it's complete bullshit. You're saying that because I put a post on DiS saying "Come to this gig, this band are amazing," I deserve to get in for free because I'm doing the promoter's job?
Or that I should get in for free because I convince three other guys to come along with me? Essentially you're turning this round and almost saying the band don't get anything out of playing the gig: they want to play and they want to play in front of people, so that's part of the reason they want people to come.
You want them to pay unless there's a good reason not to so you can pay that band and sort out a venue.
Again, if I asked a journalist to come and see us then I wouldn't expect they have to get in for free. I'd pay for them to get in if it mattered to me that much. Or I could have my interview somewhere else where they didn't have to pay.
I dunno. The guy seems like a bit of a tit.
My problem here is I actively dislike how he comes across from that blog post but I also fundamentally don't really agree with 'guestlists', certainly not for gigs that are run for no profit. (As stated there are people I always consider should be let in for free.)
seems a bit rude/naive to invite a journo to cover yr gig and then ask them to pay
You'd want to arrange that first with the promoter or you'd pay for them yourself if they weren't happy with the journo on the guestlist.
That said, if you're big enough that you are going to get journalists following you around this should be a pretty well-sold gig so maybe it's fine to open up a guestlist?
I know promoters who always have one guy on the list who writes for loads of places, but he does seem to be at every gig in Mcr
i can see that it would be incredibly frustrating if everyone is trying to blag in - but i should think one guestlist per band member or something isn't pushing it too far
I always let those guys in for free but I think also you have to assume the bands have a certain ethical understanding. If you're putting on genuinely good DIY shows I've always found the bands understand that no one wants to take the piss because you're putting your money and time in same as them.
cos he's just having a moan
it's an occupational hazard that people are going to try and blag yeah?
just deal with it
i'm sure he's a lovely fellow really
also - this is probably tainted by my own experiences of playing gigs and dealing with promoters - where at least 50% where colossal pricks
They asked me if I was on the guestlist and I said I'd already bought a ticket months ago. They told me to sell it to a tout and and they'd put me on the list. PROPER LADS, PROPER LIGGING.
He didn't mean it, however.
But if we're just talking the politics of guestlists in the original post then there's no implication that he doesn't pay people who deserve to be paid if he can.
If you're guaranteeing the band a fee then I think a promoter's entitled to treat it as a business transaction and, if people want to get people in for free, then expect the band to deduct it from their expenses rather than the promoter risk losing more if costs are tight.
If you're not paying the band, or the money they take is based on the door, then it's a bit harsh not to give people a few guestlist places - it's the band themselves that lose money if they use them...
Attempts to define and assess things in terms of how "punk" they are are always doomed to go wrong though.
Not if you don't buy tickets they won't!
not from the promoter.
need to sort their shit out.
It's a simple fact that most small bands aren't doing anything particularly new, exciting or interesting and most people who are out for a night out would rather talk to their friends than feel compelled to watch something that's not particularly new, exciting or interesting. I don't think you can blame anyone for that.
everyone should own it
these people you're talking about should somehow "pay" to see their friend's band by enduring music that they're not interested in?
actually, fuck it
I'm mostly whinging about shows I've been to, and specific people who are all about 'supporting their scene' and such who don't stay to see any bands, so don't spend anything at the bar and make the venue think no-one showed up.
And I think it's kinda rude to skip half the bands anyway, you get shows where people will only stay to watch the trendy bands, my friend played a show recently where the band he was playing with got one sarcastic cheer and just silence from the crowd when the headliners did a shoutout to them, because of some stupid label beef.
I went to a gig recently where I was only interested in one of the support bands. Watched the first band who were OK, watched the support band I was interested in who were great, stuck around for the headliners who at one point started playing some fuck awful reggae samples and just standing there on stage. Fuck sticking around and enduring that, if a band's shit I'm not watching them
cus as everyone knows promoters are all evil and hate fun.
but the word promoter probably means different things to different people
...you didn't get in
every night on the decks
when I was putting on some gigs/a club & my gfriend was running a fashion label we had loads of fashion PR types/industry acquaintances who always wanted list places - not because they didn't have money but because they didn't want to stand in line and they wanted to feel special
a friend who was promoting Saturday night at the same venue (650 capacity) told me she was regularly having 1000 people through the door on her nights with 300-400 of those being on the guestlist
This seemed like madness to me and not wanting to end up in the same boat I decided that I would say yes to any guestlist request but told the door that guestlist entry was a fiver instead of the usual ten
not a single person on the guestlist complained about having to pay 'cos they were just happy they were superior to the regular punters
3 bands + DJs
averaged 350-400 ish people
we did some smaller gigs in a 150 capacity room at the same venue but we always made these free and took a cut of the bar
good for the ego at the very least
uberthis. This is what it all boils down to.
I remember how Erol used to make sure loads of people would be queuing outside for Trash and when you finally got in, like 30 mins after opening there were about 15 people down there.
and the whole thing about you having to be dressed fabulously if you wanted to get in. Trying to make people feel grateful to have queued for an hour and actually got in.
famously selective door policy, which i'm pretty sure involves just telling random people to fuck off every 20 or so people through the queue. honestly felt great getting in tho, so whatever
I was on the guestlist each time
when people still actually regularly took their photographs to be developed at Boots or sent their slide film off in those special yellow Kodak envelopes with red print
and listened to MiniDisc players
so long ago
was it just a dream?
I have boxes of slides
Erol knew me from school so would let me in early if I was on my own or just with one other.
the most shameless namedropper here?
Hey, BitT started it!
is that I may have inadvertently been clubbing with Theo
When I started doing music for the student paper you can't not have your head turned by labels throwing you free CDs, guestlists (with +1s, +2s, +however many you like if you're polite). I was a big music fan who stopped paying for music entirely, in exchange for writing a couple of shitty CD reviews.
People trying to get guestlists to gigs that cost a fiver are just trying it on though - they want to know that they're part of the 'in' crowd.
against what you’re taking in freebies. I’ve started being a touch more conscious of this recently, ie. paying for gig entry/records from smaller bands, even if it means eating value beans on toast for tea several times a fortnight to cover it. I’m sure they’re doing the same. There’s also the fact that when you’re dealing directly with the artist, you feel like a cock asking for guestlist to more than one show - no matter how many articles you’ve written about them, and how little you were paid for said articles (usually nothing).
and gone without paying. Felt guilty or otherwise. I find it hard to believe people arguing against it never have. People that are that passionate about the music industry have definitely been to a few gigs and must have had the odd freebie
but only when I've done some work for the band or they've owed me a favour or whatever
Bloc Party , PiL, Eagles of Death Metal (who utterly failed to honour our arranged interview, twats). My brother's in a band and I wouldn't dream of not supporting them financially though
Lots of times. No real shame, I spend lots of money on tickets and music anyway. Some bands I know people in let me in for free even when I offered to pay. It's their way of saying thank you sometimes. I was a poor student, so I had no qualms about taking free review tickets or whatever when editing the newspaper arts section. I actually felt like the good promoters preferred student reviewers because they tend to be people who LOVE the band and are way more enthusiastic than jaded industry types or the major columnists who do it for a living.
or when I lived above a pub that we put shows on in there were sometimes other shows that I'd not pay for, but that's because all I could hear from my lounge was the show anyway.
And people used to try and blag past it *I'm on the list* despite us not having one or *Do you know who I am?* to get into a room where people were being sick over each other to The Rat
And then they'd sit in the corner, look miserable and be rude to people
If I'm putting on small gigs I'll be pretty flexible, but I reckon in general my rules are:
- band manager/label/semi-professional whatevs get guestlist
- partners don't get guestlist
the exception to that would be:
- if it's a solo artist and they ask beforehand (it's nice to have someone to talk to, but if you're in a band, you've got your bandmates!)
- if it's the kind of deal where their partners have tagging been round the country for days with them, and they ask beforehand, they'd probably get in free.
I can see why the guy got annoyed with that person: swanning in past the door and chatting to the band, being shocked that they have to pay. I've seen that before, and I hate that! Especially if it's only like £2-£3 to get in.
This incredibly infuriating column : http://www.thrashhits.com/2013/03/guest-column-my-problem-with-the-guest-list-by-daniel-garrod/
Basically don't put on a band you can't at least break even on.
whilst Tosspot McGinty and the Shitsacks who bring a bunch of twats from work get put on all the time as the promoter's sure to recoup?
There has to be a balance between safe bets and risk-taking...
don't put on a band if you can't afford to lose all your money, that's the rule. I've always promoted gigs with the assumption I could be down a couple of hundred at the end of night, all told. It's never happened, thankfully.
If you're upfront with the bands about it, I think that helps a lot. We tend to put on three bands on a night and offer a guarantee to headliners and first support, and cover travel costs to the opening act, while also providing food to all acts if they want it. This, plus the hiring of the venue/sound guy etc., immediately leaves you with a fair bit of money that you've got to make up for in ticket sales.
We put on mid-sized acts in venues of around the 100-200 capacity, and look to reach at least 70% of the capacity. We expect the acts in question to tell their followers about the gig (via their website, facebook or twitter), and so it's a little churlish to not give them a number of guest list places.
Our approach to guest lists usually includes the following:
- 4 places per band, with up to ten on a cheaplist.
- A place for anyone providing visuals, or helping out on the door or stewarding, or who has helped us flyer the show.
- A place for anyone who has written about the gig in advance of it happening, or who has helped with PR beforehand.
- A couple of places for the venue.
Magazine reviewers/interviewers, photographers or label bods would come out of the artists' guestlists and cheaplists.