It's going to be illegal for churches to offer same sex marriage??
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-20680924
I thought this government were in favour of same sex marriage? What's going on?
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And why are they making it illegal to do something that they didn't do anyway?
I'm very confused.
»...the Church of England and Church in Wales had "explicitly stated" their opposition to offering same-sex ceremonies, ...
...so the government would "explicitly state that it will be illegal for the Churches of England and Wales to marry same-sex couples."«
Fuck Westminster.
Fuck the coalition.
Fuck CallMe.
Fuck the Church of England.
Fuck the Church in Wales.
Fuck having an established church.
Fuck the reply to this post that references Sid Vicious.
FUCK SKOOL
wat
JESUS DIED FOR HISOWN SINS, NOT MINE.
*somebody's sins *but not mine
*CRASS * UP THE PUNX
Looks like the list on the back of my first slipknot hoody
I think this has something to do with church leaders
worrying that the previously announced plans for gay marriage could be challenged in the ECHR which could potentially mean churches would be forced to conduct same sex ceremonies.
also the chances of such a challenge actually happening is pretty slim
but hey gotta placate those right wingers somehow.
But just last week Cameron said he was in favour of same sex marrige
so it seems very strange they are now going to enshine the extra opposite in law.
He's in favour of churches/religious organisations that want to do it being allowed to do it
So that's none* of them then...
(*well the main ones)
Good one Dave. When he said that I was assuming the kind of law that made them have to do it. Not the other way around. What a prick. <---not that this is news to me
He probably is
however I suspect in the eyes of the party and the church of England it's important that he's seen as someone who 'upholds religious freedoms'. By banning same-sex marriage they still allow churches to opt-in however there's less scope for someone to appeal if the church refuses to conduct their same sex marriage. The chances of someone looking to appeal a decision like that, is highly unlikely though.
easiest thing to do would be to liegislate to make all marrage entirely secular and c ut the churches out of what is essentially jusat a statesdancitoned contract altogether
If you want your pictures taken in a fancy church then good luck to you, you can have a separate blessing. If you're gay then bac luck, no blessimng for you, but reallyt, is it THAT important to you to have ytour marriage blessed by a dude who thinks that your sexualtiy is inferior?
Load of bloody nonsense.
^exactly
Bang on
Despite it being riddled with some pretty *out there* typing
if she was playing Typing of the Dead she'd be killed within a minute
would that require disestablishment?
here are my questions
a) isn't marriage actually legally defined as being between a man and a woman? so, do they have to rewrite the legal definition?
b) how come gay people want to be married? like, i can only imagine that if i was gay and wanted to build a life with someone then the church shunning me would just be cause for mw being like "fuck you", how come gay people want to be part of something that doesn't want them?
yeah, and it we're talking about the secular ceremonies
of registry office marriage vs civil partnership isn't that an entirely semantic debate as they are legally the same anyway?
They should both be renamed as ''bff forever extra special promise parties xxxx'' to avoid confusion.
i want that!!!
I'd be someone's bff forever extra special promise party
in a heartbeat.
anyone?
dinner?
b) you are not gay people.
and that's all you need to concern yourself with in terms of gay peoples' motivations for wanting to get married.
there are religions that want to offer gay marriage. so, as much as some specific religions wish it were the case, it's not a simple case of 'religion = down with gays'.
no i know i'm not
and i'm not really talking about"down with gays" stuff. i just mean based on the refusal to offer it (in many cases). i went to a club once and they wouldn't let me in because i had trainers on and i was like haha! fine.
it's probably easier to change your trainers than your sexuality
why do you want people to change their trainers or sexuality?
I don't
exactly
and this is where you cross that line
going from teh fun lulz and bants, and into a weird faux idiot passive aggressive stifling of debate by knowingly posting piffle about something that's actually interesting and affects peoples' lives.
but when anyone calls you for it, you point out how you're not being nasty so what's the problem, or you do the 'you seem angry' thing, or whatever.
as sheeldz said the other day, you were a cool guy when we had a few drinks together irl. this internet belming isn't all out awful, sometimes it's fun, but sometimes it's just nah, bro.
i don't know why he mentioned changing sexuality though
it wasn't relevant
ah.
you've gone for the 'i was genuinely trying to understand something and if you don't play along then /you're/ the one who's stifling debate' angle. or something.
cute.
you understand entirely.
but if you didn't (or even if you did), japes' point was relevant.
no, i genuinely don't understand why people would want to be involved in something
that undermine a serious part of who they are. sorry if that's a simple concept to most people
but as you've pointed out, i'm not gay (or religious)
so it's nothing to do with me
get a grip, man.
that's not even close to what i said, and you know it.
so why did you even point out that i'm "not gay people"
because you were trying to make A Gay Person's situation apply to you,
but not everything is about you or applicable directly to you.
...but if you approach a subject with any sort of sophistication beyond the level of 'i don't get it cos i can't apply it to my life', you might find you end up in conversations more enlightening than this turgid subthread of non-discussion.
i consider myself thoroughly judged
hey! judging people
that's a religious thing isn't it? party time
Sometimes people are involved in something from a very young age
that's played a major part in their education and home/family life. This can be very difficult to just separate yourself from all of a sudden, regardless of how that seems to an observer.
that's true. maybe i just don't understand it and so decided to question it
it wasn't illega
l
i wasn't really talking about it in a legal sense
l for you to go to a club. plus some other stuff that makes that story irrelevant.
nah it's that whole thing, wouldn't want to be part of a club that doesn't want me as a member
good for you.
that has nothing to do with the fact that there are some clubs out there who have people who would like to be a member, but they're not allowed to take them on as members simply because some other club doesn't want that club to have that member.
and thus we go back to my initial question/query
i just find it strange that people would so desperately want to be involved in something where they are seen as inferior. PO said the exact same thing up above
whether you find it strange or not is of infinitesimal consequence or interest.
PO did not say what you said. Let's have no more attempts at piggy backing on proper posts, eh? It's not a very becoming exit strategy.
i'm not trying to exit anything.
let's just be clear though that your input here is just as (in)significant as my query.
For one thing, not all religious denominations see gay people as inferior
If a gay couple worship in a Quaker church, and they want to get married in that church, and the minister is happy to perform the ceremony, why shouldn't it go ahead?
hey look joeymahone said a thing instead of throwing insults around :D
good work joey. dunno though, totally outside my realm of knowledge. is that's what happening?
he's clarified on something I'd already posted at 13:39, and then again at 13:57.
and you can knock the lip trembling over some alleged insults on the head, too.
oh no no no
there was no lip trembling
absolutely
But if i was a church of england christian and my church refused to let me marry my girlfriend, I would have a lot less time for that church and I inagine i'd think 'stuff them'.
that what i said and now the internet hates me!!!
no.
upthread, PO has offered a legal suggestion, and then a personal take. then another personal take here.
you've tried to fit the worldview of Gay People to your worldview.
no-one hates you. they just wish you'd opt to tone down the (often appealing) wide-eyed affectation. note how even when people are having a wee gripe at ya, they struggle to do out without throwing a compliment into the mix.
no it's cool, i know nobody hates me
maybe my take on this whole gay marriage saga IS coloured by my experience in the world. maybe that's even a bad thing, i don't know.
oh zip it you loveable cunt
<3
:D
see how easily the antipathy passes
what does antipathy mean?
D:
:''''''D
^yes, there are gay people who very much feel that they are part of their religion
and would like to marry as part of that religion.
that must be weird though thinking religion is a real thing and also that it tells you something you do is bad
well it's also why sadly some people stay in the cloest their whole lives
and in extreme cases sometimes kill themselves cos of the conflict between two parts of them.
yeah religion is really dumb.
can't really understand why people believe in it
It's a bit like how some people still believe in the manic street preachers
i never liked them in the first place
kevin cart_erace
i'm having too many conversations about the MPS lately
something must be done
religion can be subjective
ever heard of Unitarianism? oh wait, you're being deliberately obtuse to get a raise out of the likes of me. RIP DiS
no, i have never heard of that
but just to be clear, if it involves worshipping an imaginary being
then i'm not interested
why are you so angry?
:(
I don't know exactly, my life's great and all (although I need to get back to my creative projects) but there's been something about the style of debate and the tenor of posting here that's been winding me up something rotten, can't put my finger on it. Maybe I should take a break or something
I agree with you on this one.
oh look here comes Real Talk McGee
here to put us all in our place because guess what we're all *ungrateful cunts* who should just *man up*
well how's this for manning up *punches one of sheeldz's oil rigs back into the sea, runs away to Arctic lair*
i think everyone needs to calm down and learn to get along
This time it's personal.
cat_race has been a massive fucking bellend of late though
you're clearly intelligent and conversant and level-headed and open-minded, so why you have to pollute the social board with this whimsical naive hullo-clouds passive-aggressive schtick, like every fucking thread man, please, you've trolled enough, it's over, we've all worked it out, it's just making me angry now, it's over
You really shouldn't let it affect you so much
It's the internet. It's not real.
it's more annoying that he has to try and derail
every single thread into a trolling opportunity. I don't mind when he sticks to the 'is a dog a thing' threads but when he's fucking up the interesting ones it gets pretty old
i made a very similar point to PO
and everyone fucking jumped. it got as derailed as people wanted it to be
sorry, but no.
whether by design, by genuine accident, or because of previous, your questioning was questioned because it is/was demonstrably different to PO's point.
oh yeah, i know previous plays a part in it
but it was a general though. i was actually more interested in the bit i asked about the legal definition of marriage but everyone ignored that because it's not as much fun. maybe it's a passing, throwaway thought that i worded badly. maybe it's that
i resent passive aggressive!
and anyway, i'd rather pretend to be think
than ACTUALLY be a bully or a casual racist (i don't mean you though)
passive aggression is still aggression
it's the aggressive part i resent
knock the (passive) aggression on the head then.
it's a simple fix.
maybe my tone comes over badly on the internet
but i feel no aggro towards anyone
pretty sure my tone comes over as ott.
i sometimes feel aggro and affection at the same time. it's a strange, sexy, feeling.
like a really gentle hate fuck
yr definitely not passive
:D
cat_race is a top? :O
i'm whatever you need
cat_race is top
http://youtu.be/ykRZbOb1c5c
maybe a slight exaggeration but now and then
like in this thread, dismissing religion by saying it must be weird thinking it is a real thing
i am tolerant of your non-belief but saying things like that is deliberate ignorance - thou knowest what thou art doing etc
anyway, do what you want, maybe there's still more people to con
you read me wrong
people are welcome to be as religious as they like. i, personally, find it laughable. it's all good
my nan is dead religious and i proper love her
Religion isn't completely cut and dried.
The same religion that supposedly opposes homosexuality also says that you shouldn't eat shellfish, or that we shouldn't wear clothes made from blended fabrics, or that women shouldn't wear trouser suits.
I imagine that lots of Christians some or all of the above.
When the President stands, nobody sits: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eD52OlkKfNs
We must respect the cultures of others.
.
.
Fucking hell.
Yet again, part of me thinks that anything that makes the church look like
an out of date, out of touch, laughing stock of a relic, is probably a good thing in the long run.
I really really struggle to see why people are getting so angry about this.
really? do you really?
really?
No you don't.
Unless you're pretending to be cat_race, in which case, um, lol?
rebuild?
Just so I'm following,
it's going to be illegal for a member of a clergy (or the denominational equivalent) to perform a marriage ceremony unless they have the express permission of their organisation, right? Not suggesting that's any better than 'same sex marriage in church illegalised', but there's a little nuance between the two.
Or have I got it wrong and it will specifically be illegal to marry couples of the same sex specifically within the CoE and Catholic faiths?
In summary it will:
• Ensure the legislation states that no religious organisation or individual minister can be compelled to marry same-sex couples or to permit this to happen on their premises.
• Provide an opt-in system for religious organisations who wish to conduct marriages for same-sex couples.
• Amend the Equality Act 2010 to reflect that no discrimination claims can be brought against religious organisations or individual ministers for refusing to marry a same-sex couple or allowing their premises to be used for that purpose.
• Ensure that legislation will not affect the canon law of the Church of England or the Church in Wales.
That's pretty much the BBC's breakdown reworded.
I probably haven't articulated it well, but I'm struggling to see how those summary points equal 'Government to illegalise same sex marriage in church'. What I'm seeing is 'Government to not enact law forcing churches to conduct same sex marriage'.
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding. Looks like a brush off.
Well the bbc articel says:
Other religious organisations will be able to "opt in" to holding ceremonies... But she added that the Church of England and Church in Wales had "explicitly" stated strong opposition and would not be included.
Ahh, yes. That makes my question a far easier one to frame then.
So have the CoE and Catholic churches simply made it 'explicitly' clear that they will not be opting in, or does the legislation itself state that they cannot, at any point (barring a re-write) opt in? Because I think the sentence you quoted allows for both of those options.
I know I'm being dense here.
there was another quote but DiS got rid of it:
''The Church of England and Church in Wales will be banned in law from offering same-sex marriages''
which comes before the one I posted up there.
It seems to me they are explicitly banned from doing so and can not opt in even if some clergy wanted to (are there are gay clergy so support gay marriage I'm sure)
Cheers.
Doesn't make an effectual difference, but that still some how seems worse to me. :(
Yeah, it's the level of it being enshined in law rather than being
we won't force you if you don't want to.
It just makes it harder for it to move on in the future.
No, my reading of it is that it will be illegal
the CoE (and CoW) will be banned from doing so and cannot opt in. Other demoninations can opt in if they so choose.
That seems absolutely insane.
Surely the Government could just roll-out an opt-in system for all faiths and denominations and then wipe their hands of the situation?*
* Realised while writing this that the number of people who never, ever want to see a same sex marriage in a church is probably much bigger than the number who do. Pretty obvious, I guess. And sad.
It's also a strange situation of making it illegal for an organisation to do something as a way to ''protect''/''help'' them and not the usual stopping them doing something bad.
It's hard to tell, what with the old silent majority thing,
But 53% of all respondents to the consultation white paper were in favour of it.
Seems a sop to the very many people
who are very concerned that the ECHR will somehow ride "roughshod" over their freedoms
This is utterly fucking mental.
I actually can't believe that this is going ahead. Fuck the people in charge. The generations that come after us will wonder what the fuck was going on, just the same way we consider the segregation by colour in the US as utterly batshit.
I can't believe that Church of England is getting this extra protection - why the fuck should it above all others? Fuck them. What a fucking mess.
I despair.
You know?
Despite this not effecting anyone in Scotland, it does make me want to consider an independent Scotland. You can have your fucking bullshit laws. I'll take civil marriages and civil partnerships and equal marriage over this fucking bollocks anyday.
And if you've ever saw an exchange between the Wza and I, this is a rather grand statement.
o_O
x
you see this time i agree with you
swings and roundabouts, the Real Talk gun just hit its mark!
see i do have another question, so here goes
isn't the queen the head of the CoE? i'm sure i read that recently. and isn't the PM her rep in parliament? so, that makes sense doesn't it? that CoE would get this?
apparently she is
"Defender of the Faith and Supreme Governor of the Church of England"
so there you go
what's the cooler title?
Defender of the Faith
or
Supreme Governor
supreme governor makes me think of a land lord in a really good pub
true, or a motown singing prison boss
Defender of the Faith sounds a bit more like a superhero
It's a tough choice.
Defender of the Faith sounds like a swashbuckler
who would fight against the evil Supreme Governor
there's a video game in this
andyvine, in my last instruction to you as head of MME, make one of those kickstart things to fraud money out of people then make the game
In my new role as future head of the MME
I'll get someone else to do it
yeah ok, that's fine. i would do the same thing
By the way.
I do hope that everyone roughly in favour of these plans, or even those with concerns (especially the CofE thing), will take the time to let their MP know their views. There are lots of campaigns running at the moment which are getting people to bombard MP's with anti-equal marriage views, and it's important that this is balanced out.
I was worried there might be a serious debate about gay marriage going on in here
Didn't realise it was cat_race being needy. Can the mods/sean/theo flag up when a thread is just one clueless user singlehandedly sustaining a non-argument? Like a RED DOT instead of a blue dot.
yeah that could work
Small bit of solace for you:
Just think of that moment just as a member of the C of E dies and they realise they've completely wasted their time on earth by dedicating their life to a load of auld bollocks
Civil same sex marriage is still allowed, right? And some denominations want to and will be allowed to have same-sex religious ceremonies, right?
*will still be allowed
obvs not happened yet.
your country is being run by a mach7 twatfarm
please do something about it
Fwiw, the Archbishop of Wales has said he doesn't agree
with gay marriage being outlawed for the Church in Wales; it's not something it wants to do at the moment, but he doesn't believe it should be ruled out for the future. Seems fair enough to me.
Also, the CiW isn't established, so I'm not clear on what basis the UK Government feels it should be legislating on its behalf.
did anyone see nadine dorries comment the other day that 'I have yet to meet a gay couple in my constituency or beyond who support it'. Found that quite shocking, trying to make out she is representing those she wants to deny this right. Wonder it will come back on her, there must be records of correspondence from constituents and i'd be very surprised if none of hers had ever contacted her about the issue.
Also, much as it pains me to do so, can I defend cat_race a bit here?
Personally I wouldn't want my relationship (if I was in one) ratified by a religion whose teachings state that we're a bunch of dirty sinners who'll burn for eternity, thanks. If I wanted to ensure the (admittedly currently non-existent) fella was looked after financially if I fell under a bus or whatever, a civil partnership would cover that.
I always knew this issue would be a can of worms: all it does is give the closet homophobes an opportunity to come out the woodwork, for little practical gain for anyone.
I don't think she is technically lying, using the words yet to meet avoids that, but it is an extremely disengenious argument to not just imply most gay couples don't support it but to imply those that do are virtually non existent
Who wants to get married in a church anyway (if at all)
they're full of mice, and dust, and dusty mice
Nadine Dorries IS a liar, though
I mean, it's been established in the past that she is not an honest person. So you can unbunch your pants, internet hero.
Wonder how long before mosques and synagogues will be offering gay marriage.
wait, why are the church deciding what's illegal?
If the C of E want to ban in it, let them, it doesn't need to be made illegal surely, they could just like, not do them.
There are 26 bishops in the House Of Lords.
We can't legislate the Church, it seems, but they can still legislate us. If we can forget this, then the government is in the right, if we want free speech we must have it both ways.
I tend to think along the same lines at cat_race up there. Why this desperation to be part of a culture that rejects you? Does a civil partnership infer the same rights as marriage? Then marry anyway. Go to a Quaker church, just say you're married. Whatever. Society will catch up quicker than the church will, they're just reinforcing their own irrelevance.
then the Government ought to be banning 85% of marriages
and outlawing all bridal services, magazines & wedding dress shops
But which people of faith?
Different people are members of different religions (or none), all of which have differing interpretations on this and many other issues. Whose opinion do you give primacy to?
Yeah, but which one?
And whose interpretation of his word?
There's on-ly one SCROTUM! There's on-ly one SCROTUM!
[something about Hitler goes here]