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People who have strayed from their lefty-liberalism

ehwhat [Edit] [Delete] 74 replies 12:43, 21 May '12

like, in a eureka moment...I know about David Mamet & Christopher Hitchens, but are any others worth reading? Find it quite interesting. and ting.

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  • Tony Blair?

    chris_81 | 21 May '12, 12:43 | X
  • frank sinatra

    shrewbie | 21 May '12, 12:44 | X
  • dr crippen

    TheBeautifulOnes_ | 21 May '12, 12:46 | X
  • Melanie Phillips, obvs

    Peter Hitchens used to be a Trotskyist, bizarrely
    Plenty of ministers under Blair/Brown used to be seriously hard left in their student days

    joeymahone | 21 May '12, 12:47 | X
    • Gove used to be a leftie I think

      that teacher woman used to sell the Socialist Worker at uni.

      TheBeautifulOnes_ @joeymahone | 21 May '12, 12:48 | X
      • oh and maybe Simon Jenkins

        England's finest troll

        TheBeautifulOnes_ @TheBeautifulOnes_ | 21 May '12, 12:49 | X
      • for the record I sell the Socialist Appeal

        Tory cabinet minister in the making, eh?

        TheBeautifulOnes_ @TheBeautifulOnes_ | 21 May '12, 12:50 | X
      • michael gove is just insane tho

        im not sure he can really count

        dukebox @TheBeautifulOnes_ | 21 May '12, 14:20 | X
        JaguarPirate this'd this
    • oh yeah, and PJ O'Rourke, the world's funniest rightwing libertarian

      joeymahone @joeymahone | 21 May '12, 12:49 | X
    • Was melanie phillips left wing?

      I detest Melanie Phillips. I can only assume her left wing liberal views were as poorly thought and reactionary as her current ones.

      Si_Badvibes @joeymahone | 21 May '12, 14:02 | X
      • I think she used to write for The Guardian, oddly enough

        TheBeautifulOnes_ @Si_Badvibes | 21 May '12, 14:04 | X
        • I suppose if you hate yourself

          you'll hate everyone else so it all makes sense.

          Si_Badvibes @TheBeautifulOnes_ | 21 May '12, 14:16 | X
  • Paul Johnson

    Started as a writer for New Statesman, denounced his left wing views and ended up writing a very comprehensive history of the modern world 1917-1990 (or something) in which he basically blamed everything that went wrong in the C20th (literally everything, line by line) on people not being ruthlessly right wing at all times. I've read sections of it, makes for quite infuriating/hilariously partisan entertainment.

    Smee | 21 May '12, 12:48 | X
  • John Bercow.

    Eric Pickles.

    White_Privilege | 21 May '12, 12:49 | X
    • Bercow's done the opposite, surely?

      joeymahone @White_Privilege | 21 May '12, 12:55 | X
      thewarn, DaisyFlower, and JaguarPirate this'd this
  • Stalin

    japes_ | 21 May '12, 12:49 | X
  • Starkey

    a good of example of sticking to your guns

    moribund | 21 May '12, 12:49 | X
    • or why you should stick to your guns

      moribund @moribund | 21 May '12, 12:50 | X
      • expand

        TheBeautifulOnes_ @moribund | 21 May '12, 13:02 | X
        • Because he's a complete and utter nutjob these days

          moribund @TheBeautifulOnes_ | 21 May '12, 13:10 | X
  • Nick Cohen and Andrew Anthony spring to mind

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Fallout-Guilty-Liberal-Innocence/dp/0224080776

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Whats-Left-Liberals-Lost-Their/dp/0007229690/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1337597275&sr=1-1

    I'd also strongly, strongly recommend this book

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Strange-Fruit-Sides-Wrong-Debate/dp/185168588X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1337597307&sr=1-1

    It's by an anti-racism campaigner who basically disagrees with how modern-day anti-racism campaigners place a massive emphasis on the significance of respecting someone's culture. It's much better than that sounds and a really interesting book.

    theguywithnousername | 21 May '12, 12:50 | X
    • I think the Guardian published extracts from that Andrew Anthony book when it came out

      As I recall he was like "I used to be a leftie and then I got burgled and the lefties said I wasn't allowed to be angry about it so I stopped being a leftie" and I was like "LOL is the rest of your book this stupid"

      joeymahone @theguywithnousername | 21 May '12, 12:58 | X
      • If that was the extract, it's probably not a fair summary of the book.

        Most of it makes good points. He's a bit more ragey and less articulate and considered than Cohen and does lapse into trolling on occasions but it's actually an interesting overall, even if it suffers a bit from covering much of the same ground and themes as What's Left?

        I would probably pick the Malik one over both of them though.

        theguywithnousername @joeymahone | 21 May '12, 13:01 | X
        • I might be being unfair

          I'll consider reading it, anyway. The Kenan Malik is on my reading list already – in fact I think it was you who recommended it on here.

          joeymahone @theguywithnousername | 21 May '12, 13:03 | X
    • That last one looks fantastic.

      Thanks.

      lemonbrickcombo @theguywithnousername | 21 May '12, 13:14 | X
    • Wouldn't say Nick Cohen

      it's more that he's equally critical of the hypocrisy of the left /in practice/, than that he's become a right winger.

      WhiteLightWhiteCity @theguywithnousername | 21 May '12, 22:13 | X
  • Kingsley Amis- 'Why Lucky Jim Turned Right'

    is well worth a read, if a bit outdated nowadays.

    TheBeautifulOnes_ | 21 May '12, 12:53 | X
  • Ronald Reagan

    was originally a democrat and a champion of the New Deal amazingly.

    Charlton "from my cold dead hands" Heston was also a bit of a flaky liberal before he got all gun-ney later in life

    Lucien | 21 May '12, 13:07 | X
  • http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Maxton

    joeymahone | 21 May '12, 13:10 | X
    • Sorry, meant to say that this guy did the opposite

      joeymahone @joeymahone | 21 May '12, 13:10 | X
    • what a horrifying spectacle

      TheBeautifulOnes_ @joeymahone | 21 May '12, 13:11 | X
    • That reminds me.

      Can anyone recommend where I'd start if I wanted to read up a bit more on Peter Kropotkin's work? Either his own writings or biographies would be fine.

      theguywithnousername @joeymahone | 21 May '12, 13:14 | X
      • google books is maybe your friend

        http://books.google.co.uk/books?hl=en&q=Peter%20Kropotkin&as_brr=1

        What_Ho @theguywithnousername | 21 May '12, 13:59 | X
        • Splendid.

          Thanks!

          theguywithnousername @What_Ho | 21 May '12, 14:06 | X
    • What. A. Photo.

      Royter-Hatfood @joeymahone | 21 May '12, 15:15 | X
      • isn't it just

        joeymahone @Royter-Hatfood | 21 May '12, 16:25 | X
  • Ben Elton

    Right on lefty in the 80s ('Mrs Thatch, Mrs Thatch. Little bit o policitics'). That was before he discovered the money he could make from novels. And West End shows based on Queen songs.

    NoahVale | 21 May '12, 13:45 | X
    • Have his politics actually changed, though?

      joeymahone @NoahVale | 21 May '12, 14:06 | X
      japes_ this'd this
      • well yes they must have....

        of course he will try to defend that they havn't......but they have.....ask stuart lee, he'll tell you.

        (PS Jack Dee - First of the comedy store regulars who did a tv advert.......Jack Dee is not bad though, not like elton

        creakyknees @joeymahone | 21 May '12, 14:20 | X
      • Fairly sure he did something for Bush's Presidential Inauguration

        Which doesn't really mean anything other than he's a cunt, but we knew that.

        Royter-Hatfood @joeymahone | 21 May '12, 15:17 | X
        • Can't find anything, but I have reminded myself how much of a gibbering thundercunt Ben Elton is

          *if I were to refuse to talk to Tories, I would narrow my social and professional scope considerably.*

          Royter-Hatfood @Royter-Hatfood | 21 May '12, 15:30 | X
  • re:Hitchens

    I'd think it's more, or at least partly, that "liberal left" strayed during that weird Bush era, while Hitchens remained where he was and where left used to be. He did go on about the importance of defending democracy by violence if necessary, and by pre-emptive violence on occasion, but that wouldn't necessarily conradict with "the left".

    Elton - a cunt he may be, I don't know. wouldn't automatically blame him for making money out of books, but I can't be bothered to research his novels to see if I should blame him. Fair point maybe about making a musical about a band who infamously ignored apartheid.

    What_Ho | 21 May '12, 13:51 | X
    • He did go on about the importance of defending democracy by violence if necessary, and by pre-emptive violence on occasion, but that wouldn't necessarily conradict with "the left".

      oneforghost @What_Ho | 21 May '12, 14:52 | X
      • i don't have time to argue properly because i have to go out, but just to flag that up as something a lot of people would strongly disagree w/ so maybe look out for some contrasting opinions

        oneforghost @oneforghost | 21 May '12, 14:54 | X
        • hmm..

          if we're talking about the left, then the Che Guevara left (bring on the global war against capitalist pigs), may differ from the guardianista left on this point.

          What_Ho @oneforghost | 21 May '12, 15:07 | X
          • are they interesting in 'defending democracy' or bringing about revolutionary change? is the power play in those two situations radically different?

            oneforghost @What_Ho | 21 May '12, 15:52 | X
        • Surely it's stating a fact?

          Being left-wing doesn't automatically mean being against violence or pro-pacificsm and Hitchens' justifications for it were pretty much in an orthodox branch of left-wing though in terms of opposing autocratic dictatorship.

          Lots of people might have disagreed with him, and you could reasonably surmise Bush and Blair had other motives for pushing for the war but it doesn't change the fact there were arguments for removing Hussein that were entirely left-wing. And that Hitchens tended to make them.

          Certain members of the STWC's insistence that anyone who supported the war was by default a neoliberal in disguise made about as much rational sense as Bush's 'you're either with us or against us' spiel.

          theguywithnousername @oneforghost | 21 May '12, 15:19 | X
          What_Ho this'd this
          • to simplify (time!)

            a lot of this disagreement is perhaps semantic (my mistake) and I don't have time to pursue it further.
            What_Ho said
            such and such 'wouldn't necessarily conradict with "the left".'
            for me this idea of the 'the left' is quite for us or against us, insofar as to build effective movements for social change, you need to exclude agents within who believe in a best way of bringing about that change is disagreeable to the majority. whether Hitchens fits into this is another debate, but i don't think it's a matter of fact.

            I've heard this idea that Hitchens thought of the Invasion of Iraq as Marxist revolution imposed from above, but I'd be interested to hear if you can find a backcurrent for that in 'orthodox left-wing thought' (and I don't mean that facetiously).

            if I had more time, I'd find that Marx essay where he talks about religion in a way Hitchens forgot...maybe this eve.
            oh ...and r.e. your other thread, have you ever read Avrich? brilliant on the history of Anarchism.

            oneforghost @theguywithnousername | 21 May '12, 16:00 | X
  • John Lydon (lol only joking).

    DaddyorChips | 21 May '12, 13:51 | X
  • has anyone gone 'the other way'-

    abandoned 'liberalism' and moved to socialism or something similar, or even anarchism? Famously Tony Benn got more leftwing after sitting as an MP; can't think of any others though except perhaps Galloway.

    TheBeautifulOnes_ | 21 May '12, 13:53 | X
    • Ron Paul has based his recent political career around being a supposed "radical" conservative

      yet he published that newsletter with all the bad racism in it.

      DaddyorChips @TheBeautifulOnes_ | 21 May '12, 13:54 | X
      • Ron Paul pisses me off

        the 'Ronvolution' and all the rest of it... he doesn't even have an ideology imo, he's just anti-constitutional on principle. Probably pin him closer to a rightwing libertarian than anything else.

        (for the record, rightwing libertarianism doesn't exist, but I won't get into that unless people want me to).

        TheBeautifulOnes_ @DaddyorChips | 21 May '12, 13:56 | X
        • ANTI-constitutional?

          proslo @TheBeautifulOnes_ | 21 May '12, 14:15 | X
          • he probably means that ron paul is just a pretty childish and vain contrarian

            dukebox @proslo | 21 May '12, 14:23 | X
            DaddyorChips and TheBeautifulOnes_ this'd this
    • hasn't Galloway gone so far to the left

      he's dropped off from the end and come back up again at the right-wing end?

      What_Ho @TheBeautifulOnes_ | 21 May '12, 13:56 | X
      JaguarPirate this'd this
      • god knows what he's done

        TheBeautifulOnes_ @What_Ho | 21 May '12, 14:02 | X
        JaguarPirate this'd this
    • John Gray started out as a leftist, then became a Thatcherite before eventually disowning that as well

      he doesn't really identify as being either left or right these days but he's a prominent critic of neoliberalism. His book False Dawn is well worth a read - it's a few years old now but most of it has proven to be pretty prescient, particularly over the last few years.

      http://www.amazon.co.uk/False-Dawn-Delusions-Global-Capitalism/dp/1847081320/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1337601651&sr=8-1

      noise_annoys @TheBeautifulOnes_ | 21 May '12, 14:04 | X
      DaddyorChips this'd this
    • Arianna Huffington

      Once a contributor to the conservative National Review and wife of a Republican Congressman, now better known as the founder of that bastion of lazy left-wing journalism, the Huffington Post.

      citizenmeh @TheBeautifulOnes_ | 21 May '12, 14:22 | X
    • Oh, and Benito Mussolini.

      Former editor of left-wing newspapers and Socialist Party member until the First World War. He was even named after a Mexican socialist.

      citizenmeh @TheBeautifulOnes_ | 21 May '12, 14:26 | X
      DaddyorChips and JaguarPirate this'd this
      • (That one was supposed to be in response to the OP)

        citizenmeh @citizenmeh | 21 May '12, 14:27 | X
    • Woody Harrelson?

      DaddyorChips @TheBeautifulOnes_ | 21 May '12, 14:57 | X
      • I think I've totally misread your post, d'oh.

        DaddyorChips @DaddyorChips | 21 May '12, 14:58 | X
  • Luke Bozier

    TheBeautifulOnes_ | 21 May '12, 14:04 | X
    • that's some fucking niche posting right there

      joeymahone @TheBeautifulOnes_ | 21 May '12, 14:07 | X
      oneforghost this'd this
    • not sure he was ever remotely left-wing tbh

      it's just a shame he didn't take his mate Dan Hodges with him

      noise_annoys @TheBeautifulOnes_ | 21 May '12, 14:16 | X
      TheBeautifulOnes_ this'd this
      • I'm always torn between thinking Hodges is a prat and enjoying how much he annoys people

        joeymahone @noise_annoys | 21 May '12, 14:49 | X
        • I know he's just a bit of a dick and not to be taken seriously

          but imo he really ought to have been given the boot after openly telling people to vote for Boris Johnson. I suppose that would give him an excuse to play the victim card though.

          noise_annoys @joeymahone | 21 May '12, 14:57 | X
          • Given the boot from what?

            Is he still actually a member of the Labour Party? Maybe they've decided that kicking him out would be the equivalent of feeding the troll.

            joeymahone @noise_annoys | 21 May '12, 15:13 | X
            • he's still a Labour member as far as I'm aware

              if he was thrown out he'd no doubt try to portray it as some sort of Trotskyite putsch or something. Tbh there are quite a few people on the Labour right I really can't abide, probably more so than Hodges in fact.

              noise_annoys @joeymahone | 21 May '12, 15:20 | X
      • as much as the two of them did and do piss me off

        one of the worst things about Labour in my experience is how cliquey it all is. It's very hard to critique things (anything at all) amongst your fellows members/the party faithful without being called a Tory.

        It's nice to see people able to do that, even if it is through a framework of rightwing shite.

        TheBeautifulOnes_ @noise_annoys | 22 May '12, 09:48 | X
  • Well I've strayed from what was quite a woolly social democratic standpoint in my teens to what is now a kind of halfway house between anarcho-syndicalism and libertarianism.

    But it's an ideology that is so boring to describe it never has any chance of succeeding as a political philosophy.

    proslo | 21 May '12, 14:17 | X
  • john wayne

    oneforghost | 21 May '12, 14:53 | X
    DaddyorChips this'd this
  • Dennis Miller

    Lucien | 21 May '12, 15:12 | X
  • Saddam.

    DaddyorChips | 21 May '12, 15:17 | X
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