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''US troops defile dead Afghans on camera''
I agree with Raanraals (possibly for the first and last time (no offense, Raanraals)): utter cunts!
really hope we never get invaded
they're all psychos. ALL OF THEM.
but if you're a meat-eater you're pretty much paying for something similar.
stunning/sedating an animal and one quikc 'lights out' action is not the same thing as torturing it to death
In other words, they'll take any warm body? If so then yes, they're vile specimens of (in)humanity but at the same time, it's easy to see how things like this are able to happen.
but at the same time I hope the press dont manage to get hold of their names, it'd be like throwing lambs to the slaughter
don't be a wrong, smug twat
i suppose sorry for being all RUDE and stuff if you're not a vegetarian and you're kind of joking, but yeah. Militant political satire is like my least favourite thing in the universe.
if you are vegetarian then i'm not in the least bit sorry
Are you comparing this video to ?ab??ah?
That's pretty weak.
and killing it so for the pleasure of watching it suffer?
People paying someone else to kill animals because of the pleasure of eating meat.
People killing animals because of the pleasure of killing animals.
Of course lots of the time any animal being killed for food will suffer less than one being tortured, but given how many billions of animals are consumed each year, paying to eat meat is basically supporting an industry that inflicts mass-torture.
i don't really give much of a shit about the goat beyond finding it painful to watch it being killed in such a way.
The reason it's bad is because of what it says about the people in the video, i.e. they're at best sadists and at worst fucking psychopaths. Along with like a billion other cases it strongly points towards the fact that the US military is pretty bad news, not just in its neo-imperialistic aims but in the medieval style its members go about killing/abusing/whatever the people and property of the places they invade. It points to a real culture of the military thinking they can do literally whatever the fuck they think they can get away with to the people and land they're occupying, either because of extremist racism, or simply cos they're `in charge` and cos they're psychopaths they get off on doing pretty bad stuff.
Anyway, on it's own i wouldn't care much about this video beyond thinking it's pretty disgusting and the people in it are 100% cunts. But in reality it just adds weight to the argument that the US military is fucking mental and has no place existing in its current form and given the culture that seems to preside within it.
And then to compare that to eating a doner kebab............ yeah.
Did you know you were going to shoot
off the top of a four year old girl's head
And look across her car-seat down into her skull
And see into her throat and did you know
that her dad would say to you,
"Please sir, can I take her body home?"
Oh wait, you totally did know... that that would happen
Cuz you're a jock who was too stupid and too greedy
And too unmotivated to do anything else but still be
The biggest and still do what other people tell you to do
You did it to still be a winner
You shot your grenade launcher into peoples windows and
Into the doors of peoples houses why should I care if
you get killed?
can someone describe what happens after that? How long do they go for?
but I wish I'd never clicked on this thread
but there is some hysterical bullshit in this thread. "Hope they drive over a fucking IED"? Really? Guessing you've never lost someone close to you in a warzone you reactionary cunt. Put young, often poorly-educated men in a violent horrific situation and theres a pretty good chance some will act horrifically violently, fucking easy to sit in judgement from your comfy flat in Shoreditch or wherever though isnt it.
Also, for the carnivores, ten swift blows to the head is "torture" is it? An entire lifetime in a cage twice the size of your body must be paradise then, but hey, that drunkenly-bought chicken burger was a bargain.
1) Hoping for an IED is an emotional overreaction, sure. But equally, there's a difference between young impressionable men acting tough and the demonstration of gratuitously excessive force which every army ever (except maybe The Tubeway) has routinely displayed. I'm not saying that 'all Army men are aggressive, thoughtless murder machines who have a seriously fucked set of priorities regarding human life'. I'm saying that an Army as an institution encourages the most destructive traits a human can have. It's a condition of violence, not a magnet for the preternaturally violent (although it must have its allure...)
2) The meat-eaters out there (and I'm not one of them, unless we're talking fish) are not responsible for the method of killing. They're especially not responsible for any joy taken in killing, as is clearly evident in that video. The joy taken is much more appalling than the act itself. Now, while meat-eaters, and especially those who eat junk meat, are passively condoning horrific practices, these practices are mechanical and emotionless (I wouldn't presume many abbatoir workers possess what can be termed a conscience). This practice, on the other hand, results in the perpetuation of a vile and viral bloodlust.
we're not talking about blond(e) Swedes being filleted here
go and fuck off
It wouldn't surprise me, however, if a dramatic desensitisation did take place simply in order for these people to be able to deal with what they saw every day. Sure, there may be some abbatoirs that use "humane" killing methods where workers are genuinely proud of what they do. I very much doubt that these are the majority, and I'd bet a considerable amount of money on the things that go on within the majority being enough to traumatise the average Joe.
I've shot and killed a pigeon before. It was still twitching so I had to wring its neck. Then I ate it. I still feel bad about doing this and it was 4 years ago.
Now imagine killing something you're not even going to eat, in a much more graphic and brutal way, EVERY THIRTY SECONDS FOR THE REST OF YOUR WORKING LIFE
See also: non vegans, people who buy clothes on the high street, anyone who buys a mobile phone ever.
i don't subscribe to your moral code, actually. I'm totally fine with the killing of animals for their meat.
don't fucking ^this this
Abattoir workers are not to blame for the actions of the meat industry at ALL. But, on a purely psychological level, they MUST have to dampen or entirely extinguish any revulsion (or glee) they must have for their work. This contrasts violently with the unbound and sadistic joy witnessed in the video above, or indeed the 'Collateral Murder' Wikileaks video.
have a heart and stop excoriating the consumers. The blame lies with the owners of industry, the advertising sector, and the dietary culture of modern Western civilisation.
if you think the consumer is dictating anything other than basic need for food, drink and housing - the rest, as they say, is history
I would repress my conscience until it disappeared. I'd have to. I think everyone has to. Do you work in an abattoir? We're both presuming - but I'm giving abattoir workers the benefit of the doubt that they don't actively enjoy slitting pigs and hence captain the tiller of a deeply malign conscience.
N.B. When an abattoir worker goes home, they're no longer an abattoir worker, they're a family member, and they regain their conscience. I'm talking about the present moment of shoving long knives into electrocuted livestock.
i do know some commercial fishermen and a couple of farmers who have to kill animals for a living, some of them think it's morally perfectly fine and others find it upsetting. i think we maybe have different ideas of what having a conscience means but i wouldn't feel able to strip someone i didn't know of one. soz for swearz.
IMO conscience is something that can be turned on and off depending on the moment. In mindless times I can happily say or do something I'll recoil at afterwards. I'm not talking about farmers who have to bump off Daisy for Xmas or whatever, I'm talking about working in an abattoir. Routine, mechanical killing. Not a zillion miles away from working in an army.
and I'm still not entirely sure whether youre agreeing or disagreeing with me or indeed what you're trying to say generally
and that makes them OK?! I hope I've misunderstood you.
They're fucking awful. Bernard Matthews, capitalist scum etc. But I'm absolving, somewhat, the meat-eaters, because their emotions are divorced from the reality. Abattoirs WOULD be emotional if their eventual customers were forced to watch what goes on inside them before consuming. Maybe there should be an in-abattoir snapshot on the side of every fried chicken box, a la smoking warnings
I doubt many meat eaters would chow down on a nice leg of lamb if they were told they first had to kill it using modern slaughterhouse methods. So why do they feel differently about eating meat from a packet? Well, yes, they don't have to think about the processes that brought their meal to them, but at the same time we all do a bit of that to a certain extent. In these times it's very, very, very difficult to live a completely cruelty free lifestyle and it's more a case of accepting that the way you live may be hypocritical, but at least partial-ethical living is better than completely cruel consistency (as these charming Army fellows so aptly demonstrate).
is that I can still cope with the idea of a hook lodged in a fish's mouth enough to eat the damn things. I think it's because they're both incredibly nice and incredibly healthy. My hypocrisy would be brought into much sharper focus by an incontrovertible demonstration of the suffering fish undergo - it's hard not to think of them as somehow less sentient than mammals (and also more integral to the human food-chain). I also like cheese, and my god the shit that goes on in mass-production dairy farms...
Really, I just want a local dairy and fish farmer who milks his own cows on first-name turns, churns his own butter, and catches his own fish from an unpolluted river ;_; O LIFE
I know that the animals who provide me with my Mini Eggs and my grilled halloumi sandwiches and my 99 Flakes suffer entirely as much as those who provide the meat I don't eat, but I lack the simple willpower to give up these things. I'm not in denial that the treatment of these animals is any different from the treatment of the unfortunate subject of this thread (and at least the sheep didn't spend its years unable to turn around beforehand), but I can accept my hypocrisy on the grounds of consistency being a hell of a lot worse. Unless I were to go and live in a cave and spurn all manufactured goods.
(Really, I want these scientists who recently created a lab grown burger to hurry up and grow some animal free bacon...)
they deserve every Nobel Prize for that year and the 10 afterwards
I deal with my hypocrisy by treating my life as a vector towards improvement. I don't doubt that one day I'll go full vegan. I, hearty gourmand of yore, never thought I could give up meat. Pfft! Don't miss it at *all*.
I have the odd bit of cheese and chocolate and pizza and eat cakes when I go to my parents (though I'm trying very hard at the moment to make up for Christmas). But everything I normally cook is vegan and I make a point of letting people know this is what my diet is if I'm going to their house/out for food with them. If you have other friends/housemates/partners who're of the same outlook, it's really easy to get by :)
We haven't yet refused meat that has been literally put on a plate in front of us*, but we haven't chosen to buy meat in a couple of months now.
*my friends are au fait with the pescetarian-rising-to-vegetarian lifestyle I lead, so there've only been two such impositions - my best friend is a wizard chef who can do the most amazing things with fennel and courgettes
p.s. What did you just call my partner? :p
partner(s)? maybe you're in some poly-amorous thing or something :D
but yes, you can never be sure who the bigamists, trigamists or communards are on this board
Reads more as your partner's whore though. Wouldn't that be you?
we're all hypocrites, so we can never criticise anything EVER AGAIN
1. People living in England shouldn't be allowed to judge the behaviour of those serving in Afghanistan.
2. People who eat meat have no right to criticise the brutal torture of animals.
Both of which are equally laughable and self-righteous. Basically anyone who agrees with him is, as I said earlier, a pissflap.
There were huge scoopings of holier than thou-ness needlessly thrown in too.
And they're in a 'violent horrific' situation through their own doing. I knew some dickhead would respond with a post like this. Let's not attack the people committing a cruel act against an animal let's attack meat-eaters instead. Fuck off.
Do you have the faintest idea what fighting in Iraq or Afghanistan is like or in any war for that matter? The remotest, faintest fucking idea? Because you seem ecstatic to be able to make blanket generalisations about people that do.
just trying to highlight the hypocrisy of munching away on chicken lamb or whatever and then going off on one on the internet when you actually witness an animal suffering
that justifies beating a sheep to death.
did I not open my post with "I don't want to make excuses for these guys actions"? There is no excuse/justification. What there are are a whole range of factors that will have influenced these mens behaviour, see tokek-kokeks post below
they are in that situation through the doing of the Bush Jr. and Obama administrations.
Other than that, you are right.
you're lucky this thread happened on a friday evening or i'd post a gazillion word reply to this which would break everyone's computer. Bump this on monday.
Haven't watched it, not going to.
"Put young, often poorly-educated men in a violent horrific situation and theres a pretty good chance some will act horrifically violently, fucking easy to sit in judgement from your comfy flat in Shoreditch or wherever though isnt it."
Beyond ridicule. In fact, so ridiculous that the strongest way to highlight its stupidity is just to put it in quotation marks, as I have.
or just throw insults around?
What these men did makes them utter cunts, as others have said. However, these are most likely people who've been routinely shat on by society for the majority of their lives, people who've been allowed very little control of their own lives and people who are routinely exposed to things that would give most of us nightmares. Is it too much of a logical leap to think that they might then end up taking out their mistreatment on something more powerless than themselves, in much the same way that violent crime is linked to those who often feel powerless in their day to day lives? Cunts they may be, but unfortunately they're very much a product of our time.
that they are the product of every military society ever.
I'd like to think that the brutal society we've lived in since the dawn of time will one day give way (and not simply when we end up annihilating ourselves). That's most definitely one for another time, though.
I genuinely think the latter is our best hope.
I also think that Britain generally does 'treating its own people well' better than possibly any other country (excepting Germany and Scandinavia, and arguably Ecuador) - so I'm happy to live here. Britain is not so nice to foreigners, sadly. I don't think a commune or a breakaway is the right option - we have to try and change what we have. Which is why I'm a bit shitted-off that the Green Party hasn't leapt feet-first into the MASSIVE demographic hole opened up by the Lib Dems and Labour turning out to be weak-headed neoliberals.
No matter what they do though, I think it'll take a seriously long time for people not to see them as a waste of a vote. Even those with generally Green views.
Big, crass publicity. Maybe Lucas can stage a Farage-style plane-wreck? (The demographics for the Greens and UKIP, even the BNP, aren't as dissimilar as might be thought - both are generally low-earners who desire authoritative financial management, just that the Greens have compassion for all of humanity and not just white Britons)
The BNP, though! Financially left-wing! Racist!
(And to reiterate, I'm saying the demographics are similar, not the policies.)
(Why have I gone here?)
this is probably what I would have written if I'd taken 10 minutes to calm down before posting
I saw what you were getting at and thought it worthy of engaging with, but you expressed it in a very inflammatory and generalised way. Anyway, you've had enough abuse without my condescension on top, so *zip*
I probably should have taken a deep breath before posting perhaps.
you had me until the carnivore bit. but presumably you don't have any opinion on child slavery or pollution because you're implicit in both, right?
this was in the heat of the moment and not very well expressed. I just don't understand how people are so easily able to eat meat and disassociate themselves from the suffering behind it, to not even think about it, people who would otherwise rightfully react with displeasure when actually confronted with an animal in pain. As for a child slavery and pollution, they fucking suck and I fucking suck for participating in them, I know the precious metals in my phone were probably mined by ten year olds. Unfortunately, and this doesnt say a lot for me I guess, the older I get the harder I find it to summon as much sympathy for the suffering of humans as for that of animals
It upsets me/angers me too much.
If so you have no right to be upset or angered by it, and if you do you're a hypocrite.
You also have no right to feel any contempt towards the perpetrators because they're in Afghanistan and you're not.
Certainly wrightylew accurately reflects how his posts read to me.
You seem to be determined to fill this thread with irrelevant incoherent burbling at every opportunity. I'm not really sure why.
I could do with a handjob.
I was angry and wanted to get that anger across but I should have attempted to explain myself more eloquently than I did. In either case, whether the vegetarian issue or that of soldier behaviour, there is far more than meets the eye. Unfortunately, having lost an old close friend in Afghanistan back in 2009 I was so fucking angry when I saw "Hope they drive over a fucking IED" that I got a bit emotional and tarred too many people with the same brush
The "hope they drive over a fucking IED" was pretty inflammatory and I can see how it would have provoked that reaction.
You talk about everything else with a big soggy flapping gums, but you always become reticent when talking about serviceman.
First hand experience isn't always a prerequisite to partake in open discussion! Research reliable sources etc.
I've never experienced trauma, but I can still talk about it from a distant vantage point.
I've never had homicidal tendencies and decided to massacre a women and her unborn baby, but I can still discuss the Manson killings.
I've never been deep sea fucking diving, but I'd like to be able to talk about the Great Barrier Reef.
i think feminism would have the longest sustain, animal cruelty has a sharp drop off.
Maybe I should make some badges.
Hope you fucking drive over an IUD
<3 <3 <3
It was your usernmane that made me think of it xxx
tomorrow's ubiquitous meme
People genuinely losing the rag. I cannot watch this video at all. It's just one these things, a lot of people feel more emotive about the mistreatment of animals than people. But then I eat meat = hypocrite.
There are three types of people - hypocrites, lying hypocrites and ignorant hypocrites.
I don't think we should aim to be honest hypocrites.
I do think we are all hypocrites to varying extents.
I don't think simply pointing out seemingly hypocritical behaviour is a very valid argument. See - Anti-Capitalist Mobile Phone/Starbucks bullshit so poorly cited by Louise Mensch.
I do think a few people have come across as very self righteous in this thread when they probably didn't intend to.
I don't think any newcomers to this thread should click on the link.
I do think everyone should go for a lovely stroll in the sunshine.
we're all lazy, selfish hypocrites, but lazy selfish hypocrites who wouldn't bludgeon a farmyard animal to death for fun
i've learned something today
to factory farming is pretty much entirely missing the point of why the video is horrific, no? It's not about the sheep at all, it's about the kind of people who think that killing for entertainment is ok.
Factory farming is horrible, but it's not mindless sadism/psychopathy.
As said above, the worst thing of all the bad things in that video is the celebrating boy.
however, I do think stuff like this kinda does add some perspective to OTHER discussions (not this thread) about how we as humans come to be so alienated from the exploitation of animals.
please, nobody respond to this please.
I'm not a hypocrite, my bed was cum stained. Wet dream in fact. First one in fookin years. Got pretty nostalgic.
were you overcome by a wave of emotion?
really does end up embarrassing.
The ego has landed. I await your input with bated breath.
I just find it strange the way people have sort of tied themselves in knots debating the ethical implications of acts like this, where to me a few simple salient points apply.
Firstly, killing an animal or causing it suffering for no other motive than for enjoyment or pleasure is a hugely reprehensible thing to do. If as someone up there has suggested, they then ate the sheep that does alleviate the act somewhat. You would think however that they could have made things less traumatic for the sheep, though whether having it's throat cut would be much less harrowing for the animal also bears consideration.
The second point that I think needs addressing is whether there would be half as many replies if it had been a human the soldiers were beating. I doubt that somehow, and also find that interesting, because (at least in my opinion) as horrible and brutal that experience must have been for the animal, it is only a sheep, and of far less consequence than a person. I don't subscribe to the view that all animals are a resource, there simply to be put at the disposal of humanity. But when we are talking about an individual domestic animal, then that is essentially the purpose of that animal, and the consequence is that it's final moments are going to be something akin to what happened. Less savage hopefully, but not that far removed.
but it's also not far removed from the people who come into massacre threads and complain that there wouldn't be as many replies about a famine/starvation.
it's not a competition to see what people prioritise or care about more.
I just don't understand why people get more upset about animals than humans. If it was a really rare tiger etc, then I would care more, but that would still be from a scientific point of view.
they understand that animals have no free will in a human world and so they are always unquestionably victims of human action (whether that be through malice or hunger)
people seem to have a harder time understanding that, in many situations, humans that are the victims of other humans are just as helpless and so we seem to always add a component of the victim being somehow complicit in their own situation because of their failure to avoid it or that there must have been some form of provocation etc.
you only have to look at the whole Slut Walks situation to see how many people really can't get away from this ridiculous notion that humans are always and ultimately responsible for what happens to them in life
Well, possibly one person. But still, it's a bit of a generalisation to say that "people" care more about non human animals, when I see little evidence of this.
Also, "only" a sheep. No, it was unlikely to have strings of mourners lamenting its death. Its nasty end was no less brutal and terrifying than a human's would have been-the only difference I can see here being that the human's loved ones would have suffered unimaginable anguish. So less about the subject of the brutal act in question.
if I had bothered getting involved, I'd have been of an "this isn't like factory farming but I don't like that either" stance.
i've eaten jerk goat and i like jerk goat but i don't like this video.
"there is some hysterical bullshit in this thread. "Hope they drive over a fucking IED"? Really? Guessing you've never lost someone close to you in a warzone you reactionary cunt. Put young, often poorly-educated men in a violent horrific situation and theres a pretty good chance some will act horrifically violently, fucking easy to sit in judgement from your comfy flat in Shoreditch or wherever though isnt it."
^this point is good. if the poster had said this exact same thing, word for word, in response to footage of a group of insurgents blowing up a mosque or an orphanage, no-one would have picked him up on it.
but his second point was shit.
and there are some massively offensive generalisations made about service personnel in this thread.
I've been saying that they're placed in an alienating and unnatural state of total violence, and I would qualify that by saying that some individuals are able to deal with this better than others. That many are incapable of switching off the killing imperative is evident not only from this video but from the suicide rate of Army personnel.
and this comes the day after US Marines in uniform went viral for pissing on their Afghani Taleban murder victims
they're kind of 'bringing the game into disrepute' and not exactly acting as 'individuals' here so how on earth you can claim to be "offended" by "generalisations" I do not know
not that I agree with such generalisations per se but they are an obvious and expected reaction given the state of play of the reputation of the US Marines this particular week/month/year etc.
i agree with that.
i don't have a dog in this hunt, it's just a shame to see so many usually intelligent board members going so far off the rails.
rationality and poise go out of the window
the corrupting force of aggression and brutality is evident everywhere
No one knows what they're talking about. Let's all go home.
I think this has been an interesting thread, good points made on both sides. Obviously it is sickening and wrong but those people are under immense strain, maybe we should consider what drives people to that, we all empathise with the sheep but pull the focus back and we might empathise with the soldiers, the fact that far worse atrocities occur during every war by people considered previously to be fairly normal says alot, sure the possibility that afew sadists are drawn to the armed forces may be true to some extent but can that account for everything, but I think that is any easy answer that leaders can use to dismiss important truths about the reality of war. Desensitisation must be a requirement to live under those conditions, we'd all like to think none of us could ever become that desensitised but how do we really know, I read that more US service men kill themselves every year than are killed in combat and was quite shocked and made me think about why they do other things that are completely mental.
Disclaimer: I eat meat myself much to my own dissapoinment so am a massive hypocrit but I think people are quick to dismiss the comparisons to eating meat, I read the book 'eating animals' and it was quite eye opening, I don't think life long torture is an understatment. The way they keep sows to breed pigs in metal boxes they can't turn around in, bare miniumum and often ineffective electric shocks that fail to stun, workers that need to become so desensitised that abuses are inevitable, such terrible conditions that antibiotics need to be fed as standard to fend of disease. Even free range and organic sometimes the animals have been interbred to maximise meat and profit that they are so overdeveloped that just to exist is probably to suffer, and most slaughterhouses have been bought out by factory farmers so even the animals that have had a good life can face bad conditions in death. Granted this book was written in america but it is the way farming has been going everywhere and our meat comes from all over.
People say its ok because you need to eat to live, but in this day and age you dont need to eat meat to live, I know you'll get alot of claims otherwise but reputable research finds it is healthy at every stage of life and people are even less likely to get certain cancers etc. And from the animals point of view it doesn't care what the purpose of its suffering serves. We'd say that the sheep in the videos death was wrong as there was no reason for it, but the only reason for a sheep to suffer to bring us lamb is because we like the taste of lamb, is that a good enough one?
I guess the difference is the immediacy of those responsible that makes it seem different, those service men are directly responsible for the suffering theyve caused. where as eating meat the responsibility has been diffused through society, it is legal, most other people do it, think the government probably moniter it, it must be ok, and we justify it by not exposing ourselves to the reality of it, but really if you do follow the logic through when we eat meat we are just as responsible for the suffering that has brought it to us. Its not a case of saying this video is ok because we eat meat it should be a case of considering eating meat as low as this video, I guess we all feel abit guilty about it so try to rubbish the comparison but I think if we knew all the facts about meat and where then honest with ourselves we'd see there is not much difference
but where does one draw the line? You could say the same thing about people who upgrade their phone/laptop/mp3 player every six months, or those who buy clothes they don't need, or well, anybody who does ordinary consumer things. This has all been done upthread though, so I should do the sensible thing and back out now (whether I will is another thing).
yeah totally, modern life forces us all to be compromised, though some would argue there may be a net benefit quality of life wise for those countries manufacturing our stuff, so its not so clear cut right/wrong thing to consume, and it is alot easier to stop eating meat than to completely opt out of consumer society and construct things by hand. Like I said I eat meat so am as wrong as anyone and not saying where people should draw the line I was talking from a devils advocate position as I think on the surface it seems obvious that one is wronger than the other but when I really thought about it I couldnt say why
"People say its ok because you need to eat to live, but in this day and age you dont need to eat meat to live, I know you'll get alot of claims otherwise but reputable research finds it is healthy at every stage of life and people are even less likely to get certain cancers etc."
My mum is healthy and she's been a life-long vegetarian for 56 years.
I'm a vegetarian and have been for 20 something years.
Both of us are healthy.
for food and science. this video was awful and disgusting not because the animal died, but because of the reason it died.
james, why are you constantly and reliably in every single thread like this being a po-faced boring little prick? you throw around snap judgments and call people hypocrites and take sides based upon whichever side will generate the most potential for you to get righteous about anything. you're like the johann hari of DiS.
but the reason for an animal to die when we eat meat is no more than we like the taste, we don't need to eat meat
Firstly, an apology. The "for the carnivores" bit was unnecessarliy confrontational, it sprang from me being hugely pissed off and it doesnt really sum up my feelings on the matter, whether and why we choose to eat or not eat animals and how this relates to our interaction with them is a complex issue and one that I'd be happy to discuss elsewhere although I'm guessing peoples appetite for that will have probably dwindled slightly after this particular car-crash of a thread.
What I will not apologise for is being hugely offended by the "fucking IED" comment, the general air of distaste towards soldiers that I have witnessed from some posters in this and other threads and an apparent lack of willingness to attempt to comprehend, or empathise with what living day to day in a situation like theirs would be like, or the huge psychological toll that it takes.
I didn't want to bang on about this because I dont want to use it to assume the moral high ground or make it seem as if my side of the argument must definitely be the correct one but I lost a very good mate of mine in Afghan in 2009. He was not a meathead, a psychopath or any other sort of army-jock-stereotype. He was a calm, funny intelligent guy that fell into army service for a number of reasons and certainly not for a desire to kill for pleasure. When he got back from his first tour the change in him was palpable, he broke up with his girl within 2 months of being home and neither she, I, or his family could get him to open up. Slowly, and after some help from army counselling services he started to talk to me and his brother about some of the things he'd seen, done and been through and trust me, I'm not going to go into it here but if you've looked someone you care about in the eye while they tell you this shit then you'd be a lot slower to wish death on ANY soldier. Towards the end of his period of time back home with us he began to return to his normal self again, to readjust to a day-to-day life in where there isn't someone trying to kill you everyday. When he went back out on his second tour in early 2009 I felt much more confident that he would be ok, more readily able to deal with the mental strain now he'd managed to discuss and rationalise some of it. Two weeks later he was dead.
Yes, the soldiers in the videos actions were shocking and reprehensible but please, before you fly off the handle take the time to really think about what their situation must be like, I mean REALLY think about it, and please, please dont write anything as stupid as "hope they drive over a fucking IED"
bottom line for me, irrespective of personal circumstances: clubbing a lamb in that manner = straight out cruel
"I hated animal killing BEFORE it was cool".
Gonna actually watch the video now.
I feel a bit strange now.
I think the laughing from the onlookers was the most uncomfortable aspect of it. By far. And the most interesting, too. The resultant expired animal feels like something of a side issue. (Black Mirror pig? Nah, probably not, but still...).
Similar, but not the same as, how I felt after watching a tv doc with scenes from a fish farm, where the farmed (not sea caught, as if it makes a difference - idk) fish were methodically beheaded (iirc) and fed into the 'chopper'. See also: the youtube vid of chicks being fed into the grinder. See also: the (iraq-centric?) vid of the dog being chucked off the 'cliff' (veracity disputed ofc).
Some food centric reference points. Some non-food-centric reference points. To me that's more interesting than the army factor (whatever I think of that, close relative as service personnel, or otherwise), which feels like an aside. This definitely feels like a human:animal interaction thing than an 'army r jocks' thing. Could easily have been A N Other random sheep batterer(s) doing the deed.
Fancy a stupid parallel? I'll oblige: there's a remorseless 'couldn't give a fuck' outright lack conscience/sense of responsibility thing going on that seems to be in evidence that's apparently present in people who drop litter.
Dunno. I've typed ^this in a hopeless attempt to make sense of it, when no sense is present. Pretty certain any attempt at making sense of craziness is a crazy endeavour.
And with that, I yield.
I can't possibly comprehend the cruelty. It sparks so many different questions and offshoots from those questions in my head that I find it hard to contain them all.
This applies to any inhumane cruelty.
i guess that it can be useful if you want to build soldiery that wont balk as much at doing it to humans.
And is it that suprising, if you train people to do that to humans, why wouldnt they do it to animals
Such threads help to distinguish the argumentative sheep from the goats, though, so they serve a purpose, even if both end up getting clobbered
but it's a very interesting huffpo story detailing the sociopolitical narrative of war in the 21st century. it touches upon the context within which soldiers are now trained to adapt to the modern style of war and the possible fallout from that:
ignore my link
this did noooo need a bump.
couldbebrianmay fucking excels him/herself here
must try harder.