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rich tory students burn Obama and Mandela effigies

satan_you_dog [Edit] [Delete] 51 replies 17:20, 28 November '11

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-15847986

I'm confused as to why this isn't a big national news story? Just because they're rich doesn't mean they can be allowed to get away with this.

In a few years time they will be running our country, trying to persuade us that they're politicians for the people, spreading the word of democracy and tolerance.

The shit would have really hit the fan if this had been young BNP or EDL members doing the burning.

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  • so why was Dave Gilmour's son all over the news?

    satan_you_dog | 28 Nov '11, 17:27 | X
    • Standard

      marckee | 28 Nov '11, 17:27 | X
    • The news story itself states that only an Obama effigy was burnt.

      fullerov | 28 Nov '11, 17:32 | X
      this'd this
      • this artical mentions Mandela and others...

        http://news.sky.com/home/uk-news/article/16116007

        satan_you_dog @fullerov | 28 Nov '11, 17:38 | X
        • yeah but not on this occasion.

          I admittedly don't know too much about this situation, but I don't think burning an effigy of Obama necessarily makes you racist etc.

          If as said below they're repeatedly done the same to Mandela, then that's rather more suggestive.

          fullerov @satan_you_dog | 28 Nov '11, 17:42 | X
      • ...

        "The same society has burned effigies of Gordon Brown and former South African president Nelson Mandela in the past"

        The Mandela burning has happened on several occasions, apparently.

        marckee @fullerov | 28 Nov '11, 17:39 | X
    • why do people always burn effigies and flags?

      why not just do number ones and number twos on them?

      creakyknees | 28 Nov '11, 17:41 | X
      • :')

        84joe @creakyknees | 28 Nov '11, 17:42 | X
      • Well, I for one am grateful that rich tory students are burning an effigy of Obama,

        rather than publicly exposing their public-school weakened starfish and squeezing one out.

        marckee @creakyknees | 28 Nov '11, 17:49 | X
        DaddyorChips this'd this
    • next they'll be burning crosses

      prunes | 28 Nov '11, 17:47 | X
      • UUUHHH!

        DaddyorChips @prunes | 28 Nov '11, 20:09 | X
    • Just because they're rich doesn't mean they can be allowed to get away with this.

      No, the fact that they're rich does not.

      The fact that we allow freedom of expression, does.

      (and equally, we can all express our disgust at what they've done)

      I am of course assuming that the motives behind the burning were due to opposition of Obama's politics, rather than racism.

      s_p_g | 28 Nov '11, 17:50 | X
    • Theres loads of effigies burnt

      its news because they ARE rich, which is fair enough - you should have a little more decorum when youre born into wealth

      Songs_about_ducking | 28 Nov '11, 17:50 | X
      • Yeah, the Great Britain should know better

        -dan- @james_ | 28 Nov '11, 18:00 | X
        • The Great Britain

          So uncouth

          Songs_about_ducking @-dan- | 28 Nov '11, 18:22 | X
      • and they're from st andrews uni

        what a surprise

        yes_ | 28 Nov '11, 18:03 | X
        this'd this
        • yeah there's so much wrong with these people i don't even know where to start

          - they thought it might be fun to go to university in fife
          - they're tories
          - they're young tories
          - they do this
          - they do this on a friday night

          DarwinDude @yes_ | 28 Nov '11, 23:57 | X
      • to be fair

        how many of my generation burn 'the thatcher' on bonfire night?

        creakyknees | 28 Nov '11, 18:07 | X
        • Yeah, but Madiba's black

          so if they're disagreeing with his politics then they must be racist.

          -dan- @creakyknees | 28 Nov '11, 18:12 | X
          • *Mandela

            -dan- @-dan- | 28 Nov '11, 18:12 | X
          • well, actually probably yeah, they probably are

            you see thatcher ruined quite a lot of peoples lives here and represented the closest to the personification of evil greed and evil disbelieving in peoples inner good, she was the most hated person in this land for a long while, because of her actions and words. (and was a big moving force in the problems that we have today....as i identify in other threads)

            Nelson Mandela on the other hand.....why would these toffs hate him so much? what misery and hardship has he caused them? He is the figurehead for black south africa being repressed by the previous repressive unequal regime.

            So I would expect people hating him might actually support regimes that repress majority black populations....OK he was a little bit communisty as well and was involved in a bit of violent protest....but nothing unusual in this world........and in conjunction with the burning of the obama effigy.....obama who has not even had the chance to do really radical democratic reforms.....why/how can he be hated so much, when everything he does is moderated/cancelled/lessened by the senate? ....probably because of what he represents.......so basically two (lets face it in the grand scheme of things ....no matter whether you are left or right) fairly innoffensive BIG policitcal figures, who are not extreme by the standards we see elsewhere, but their effigies are burnt......not perhaps because of a spontaneous outpouring of emotion at their actions.....but because they are well known and therefore powerful black leaders.......so yeah, on the whole i would reckon that this was racist...probably....i cant prove it, but ....yeah its racist

            creakyknees @-dan- | 28 Nov '11, 18:30 | X
            Cementimental and gaborszabo this'd this
          • You don't have to be racist to burn an effigy of Nelson Mandela

            ...but it helps!

            Cementimental @-dan- | 28 Nov '11, 20:27 | X
      • Why would they burn an effigy of Mandela?!

        I can understand why they would burn Obama's and Brown's effigies, since both are financial terrorists and war criminals, but why Mandela's?!

        bulletboy | 28 Nov '11, 18:18 | X
        • He took the farms

          off their grandaddies (it hasnt been substantiated yet)

          Songs_about_ducking @bulletboy | 28 Nov '11, 18:22 | X
        • both are financial terrorists and war criminals

          Yeah, I think that's almost certainly why the Conservative Association were burning those effigies. You've hit the nail on the head.

          joeymahone @bulletboy | 28 Nov '11, 18:24 | X
          Icarus-Smicarus and DaddyorChips this'd this
        • Been a bit hazy on AIDS in the past.

          Been pretty uncritical in support of Mbeki & Zuma, both of whom have had pretty ugly sides.
          Been a bit soft on Mugabe.
          Supportive of so-called "Peace Parks", which have been argued to be tools of neoliberalism and/or undemocratic South African regional dominance.

          ^^^are a few of the more valid reasons. There are obviously uglier ones too.

          Personally, I think it's helpful to see the weaknesses/failings of near-universally-praised individuals like Mandela/Gandhi/Mother Theresa, but I think their good far outweighs their bad, and ultimately the world would be a much better place with a few more of them. But there will always be critics who throw the baby out with the bathwater.

          -dan- @bulletboy | 28 Nov '11, 18:28 | X
          • C&P "Yeah, I think that's almost certainly why the Conservative Association were burning that effigy" etc

            but yeah, good post.

            joeymahone @-dan- | 28 Nov '11, 18:31 | X
          • OK, thanks for clarifying.

            I was honestly surprised, since I have been always told and taught that Mandela was a ''freedom fighter'' and a ''great fighter'' for human rights.

            Guess you can't trust a 100% the things you are taught/told.

            bulletboy @-dan- | 28 Nov '11, 18:33 | X
            • He WAS a great fighter for human rights (and also a terrorist / freedom fighter, depending which side you were on)

              He IS one of the greatest living public figures, if not the greatest.

              But he IS also a political figure, and so it's not that unsurprising that there will be some who oppose his politics. Perhaps more fundamentally, he IS a human, and therefore not flawless. Although, as Joey said, I don't really think any of the reasons I gave will be the ones used by the effigy-burners...

              -dan- @bulletboy | 28 Nov '11, 19:56 | X
          • really? tell me what did mother theresa do that is not done by thousands of others?

            (I know, in case you don't)

            creakyknees @-dan- | 28 Nov '11, 18:35 | X
          • Mandela and Gandhi tried to change things, for the better as they saw it

            m.t. continued to expand the RC empire with a franchise of a new range....whereby they managed to recruit in nuns....she also shook hands and was polite with dictators, so that the rc church could continue to operate in various countries (who wasnt bolstered by a picture of them shaking hands with a living saint..why was she a living saint? because that was what she was marketed as such.

            What else did she do that thousands of others didnt? Hmm....well she offered a peaceful dying environment for people in calcutta, some other places were actually trying to cure people as well as offering them succour......it depends whether you think its more important to heal the soul of a dying body or the body....although cynically it might be regarded as just recruiting souls at that most important time in their life (according to the rcc) just before they die......were they a catholic or not......whose score are they added to? mt did not spend as much time in calcutta as many others, tending the poor and the sick, she was a figurehead.

            Im sorry but i despise figureheads in this respect....organisations like medicine sans frontier have people in them doing really dangerous stuff every day nurses get killed and kidnapped for doing this in areas that others wont go, yet they do not have a self agrandising agenda, what they DO is more important/worthwhile/heartening than the publicity and the congratulation

            creakyknees @-dan- | 28 Nov '11, 18:46 | X
            • Tbh, I mainly included MT because I knew a few of the more indie virgin tryhards would be leaping over themselves to criticise her

              Surprised it was you though. Obviously there were thousands - probably hundreds of thousands, possibly millions - of unheralded individuals in the 20th century who were not only "as good as" but even "better"/"nicer"/"more worthy"/"more selfless"/whatever than not only MT but Mandela and Gandhi too. Pretty sure both of the latter shook hands with dictators too, by the way - at least, Mandela definitely has.
              Is there a reason MT has been elevated above all the nurses etc you mention? Well, yes, obviously it's part marketing and part the self-multiplying effect of fame. Did she ask to be marketed in such a way? I don't know, but I suspect not, and even if she did I'm not so sure it's a bad thing. Whether you despise them or not, charities and pro-poor organisations need popular figureheads and marketing. Should people have to be prompted, through mass cynical campaigns such as Comic Relief and Children in Need, to give money to charity? Shouldn't people just give to charity all year round? Yes, and many do, but that doesn't stop the millions of pounds (and the mass awareness) raised from being used for good. Likewise, was LiveAid and all that Make Poverty History stuff a massive waste of time and resources that could have been better spent if only people would just regularly give their time, energy and money to good causes without needing a bunch of hypocritical celebs telling them to do so? Again, yes, but that doesn't make it entirely without merit. Prominent figures like MT are hugely important for raising the profile of pro-poor advocacy, lobbying and campaigning for social, political and economic change (as well as fundraising); activities which MT was heavily involved in. Maybe, in an ideal world, they shouldn't be; and people should give to the poor out of nothing more than basic human compassion. Again, of course, many already do.
              Ultimately, I think you're saying she's not a "saint" because she's not as good as a (relatively) small handful of exceptional people, which is perhaps valid but only a fair measure if you hold it up to everyone you meet (are your friends/colleagues/family/favourite authors "as good as" these people, and if not do you hold it against them?). I, personally, think it's far more fair to compare her (if compare her we must) to the great bulk of humanity that, imho, resides in the "not as good as" category. Surely someone who has, seemingly wholeheartedly, devoted their entire life to helping those more unfortunate than themselves (even if you disagree with their methods of helping) has to rank in, say, the top 10% (although such a concept is hideous)? Surely the world *would* be a better place if we had a few more like that (albeit flawed) and a few less of, I dunno, greedy bankers / neo-Nazis / Tories / wifebeaters / [insert-your-own-pet-villain-here]s? Praise the faceless, "flawless" MSF workers, nurses (NHS and otherwise), pro-poor campaigners etc all you like, but don't throw all those who are trying but failing to live up to their example into the same camp as those who aren't even trying.

              Incidentally, I think your ideological opposition to the Catholic church (and your very valid criticisms of some of their more harmful activities) are blinding you to the fact that they do actually also do a lot of good. I don't particularly like 'em either, but credit where credit's due.

              -dan- @creakyknees | 28 Nov '11, 19:50 | X
        • I don't think that's why they're burning the Brown and Obama effigies.

          DaddyorChips @bulletboy | 28 Nov '11, 20:10 | X
      • I don't think this was meant to be racist

        but it doesn't look good at at all for the young conservatives at this university.

        If they aren't being racists then it just highlights how incredibly clueless they are if they didn't think about the repercussions of these actions.

        For me it's not so much that it was just pissed up students having a laugh it was young conservatives who could potentially be in charge our country in a few years.

        satan_you_dog | 28 Nov '11, 19:05 | X
      • Tory students have been long renowned for being mentalists, tbf

        it appears the current crop are just following in the footsteps of their illustrious forebears.

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federation_of_Conservative_Students#Controversy

        noise_annoys | 28 Nov '11, 19:11 | X
        • not sure if this has already been posted, but anyway:

          http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2057785/Oxford-Tory-song-salutes-Nazi-killings--Drunken-students-facing-inquiry.html

          noise_annoys @noise_annoys | 28 Nov '11, 19:14 | X
          • and incidentally, Balls just happens to be a former OUCA member:

            http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/pandora/revealed-how-ed-balls-was-a-tory-under-thatcher-406675.html

            noise_annoys @Masculinity | 28 Nov '11, 19:41 | X
          • Highest rated comment:

            Throw accusations of being a Nazi onto the upper classes in the hope they crumble! I hate this Liberalised society we now live in, where the media is really in control of how we all think

            MB, Manchester

            Parsefone @noise_annoys | 28 Nov '11, 19:47 | X
            • good spot

              MB from Manchester has got a good point. Once you take away the photos of people in Nazi outfits and the public singing of pro Nazi songs these accusations are completely baseless.

              satan_you_dog @Parsefone | 28 Nov '11, 20:04 | X
              Cementimental this'd this
              • Wow Nazis at Oxford. Thank goodness the Americans won the war for you. If you had lost the war you would have been part of the Greater European Reich. Oh I just noticed that the name changed to the EU. Did you win or what?

                - Gordon, Melbourne Australia, 5/11/2011 14:17

                -dan- @satan_you_dog | 28 Nov '11, 20:09 | X
                • Mail comments are the absolute best

                  Songs like this are actually anti fascist. It is called 'sarcasm'. Sadly, some people have lost their sense of humour.

                  - juan, Barcelona, Spain, 5/11/2011 13:38

                  noise_annoys @-dan- | 28 Nov '11, 20:11 | X
      • what's with the nazi obsession?

        fucking sad.

        satan_you_dog | 28 Nov '11, 19:53 | X
      • Always nice to see the ol' alma mater in the news

        Epimer | 28 Nov '11, 20:19 | X
      • What have rahs

        Ever done for us?

        Discuss (20 marks, you may use a calculator, show your working. If necessary, show your Turking.)

        MajorCriiimes | 28 Nov '11, 23:51 | X
      • our feral overclass

        DarwinDude | 28 Nov '11, 23:54 | X
        Cementimental this'd this
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