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Probably her sister.
I feel sorry for the poor bloody kid.
Also, where is this tram? I've never seen a tram in the UK I don't think....have i? I'm confused now.
Have a look at the big public transport map for London near Croydon.
that I didn't know about.
I never really venture up north so that's why I would have thought they would have been up there.
I've just never seen one.
I have never been to Croydon to be fair though (unless going through it on the train). I've only really been to Woolwich quite a bit, but that's more south east.
I never got to ride it though. I will be forever pissed off with the person who stopped me from riding the tram.
trams are amazing
busses and tubes available.
I like a good old tram in Amsterdam, because they are more frequent than a bus and Amsterdam is much smaller so it doesn't make much of a difference
I think it's because of the ground being too hard or too soft to build them (something like that), but most of South London has never had a tube network.
So the trams make sense. They run around a lot of south London if you look:
must be shit
I assume he's walling it in.
And thats all I will say on the matter.
full of poor, drunk people.
It sounds amazing. Fuck you, s_a_d.
The ones in Nottingham don't go anywhere I want to go.
I would have gladly got them up a hill (it was very hilly)
Its a pointless tram that was made so a load of people could keep their cushy job for another 5 years.
I think I was 19 or 20, she was in her second year of university there so it would've been about then. we were sat in a bar having a drink and one rumbled past, made all the windows shake. i had no idea Sheffield had trams, so it kinda freaked me out a little bit.
i've still never been on one in the UK though :(
in the first few weeks of his time at Manchester Uni, his brother came to visit him.
Upon seeing a Tram for the first time, he exclaimed loudly "WHAT THE FUCK IS THAT?!"
refused to cash a cheque from my mate's father's bank: Lloyds in Cheddar. Their reasoning was that 'Cheddar's not a place, it's a cheese'.
In my defence I had never knowingly seen a tram before outside of archive footage or shots of San Fran Cisco so I was expecting a double-decker affair, something like a Routemaster.
Genuine dissapointment that you think shouting, swearing at people is a sign of good parenting. Yes, people are allowed to have their views but that poor fucking child...having such an aggressive mother shouting profanities at members of the public, swearing...being a genuinly disgusting person. And she appeared to be slurring, so was probably pissed.
You really think this child does not deserve more?
determine whether someone is a good parent or not just by watching a couple of minutes of it.
But I think it's fair to say provoked swearing and shouting at strangers with a toddler on your lap isn't great parenting.
but calls for social services etc are just laughable.
Cringe, cringe, cringe.
much worse than that
He needs to get a new saying
That clearly settles the case for the prosecution.
PS to be fair, the point about religion being outlawed seemed to be more a theory about the country becoming aggressively secular than anything around immigration. It seems a bit misrepresentative to conflate it with mad tram racists.
i love you joey but that comment is ridiculous!
does this mean im a momo?
i would be researching this. BRILLIANT LOGIC
Who's saying Christianity will soon be outlawed?
it should be tho.
Or that's what seems to be being implied.
hope nottt anyway
I mean, regardless of the wild racism and awful behaviour. It's a pretty sad existence for people like that isn't it? Sad little life.
Them imigants can't even speak no English innit.
Shouldn't the child's face be obscured?
what's the point
honestly. if you think that, you're part of the problem.
but she has a little kid and evident serious mental health problems.
i hope they put that bitch on ice.
I mean, if she'd written the same on a Daily Mail comments page or set fire to effigies of Mandela & Obama she'd be among willing peers...
breach of the peace?
is a bit different to posting a comment on the daily mail website
and my point is that these kind of viewpoints are constantly being driven into the thought processes of the white British working class as a scapegoat substitute for the fact that we're ALL being sold down the river to a more crowded, polluted, noisy, stressful future with ever smaller slices of the pie with fewer opportunities for social advancement (collectively, not just individually)
You're right though, it feels qualitatively different somehow for a mum with a child on her lap to bring these views face-to-face with the objects of her hatred but she wasn't born with these views and these views are on display pretty constantly from institutions that draw no fire for them
Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending her *right* to *free speech* or anything like that but I think a lot of how we feel different about this episode than we do about a Daily Mail or youtube comment stream is way more to do with the medium than the actual message
we ought to be vigilantly attacking the message rather than having to suffer the consequences of those who repeat it
doesn't make it less racist, but as a matter of free speech it does belong there. it doesn't belong on a tram full of innocent people who did nothing to provoke it, that's a verbal assault. now if a black person was engaging with her and she aired those views - yeah they're hateful but it then becomes a matter of debate, rather than assault. that's the distinction you have to make, and i would make the same distinction on a website too.
i don't think anybody would disagree that the underlying cause is the most important issue though.
we dont know what happened before the video began tbf
I agree with what shrinebabe says here http://drownedinsound.com/community/boards/social/4311547#r6427052
I don't think she's broken any law - she'll maybe get an ASBO
Britain needs to SERIOUSLY invest in education
I vehemently disagree with shrinebabe's use of *should of*
and I don't believe it always will happen
but the anti-immigration/last night of the proms jingoism is right at the heart (or maybe in the belly) of centre right politics in Britain
I don't think we should allow the BNP to make waving a Union Flag and singing Land of Hope and Glory into something we have to associate with small-minded racists. Because it isn't.
doesn't mean that it isn't part of a tapestry of jarring threads to those who have come to Britain from all over *The Empire*
and besides, last night of the Proms (to give one example) is absolutely part of the Remember When Britain Was Great dance
What you've said sounds like the sort of assumptions that can lead to councils pre-emptively banning stuff they think might upset minorities.
There are lots AND LOTS of people in Britain who wave Union Flags around and aren't 'ethnically' white (for want of a better term), and who'll sing along to anthemic songs and the anthem itself. You can't just decide that Land of Hope and Glory is suddenly an evil song. If you read the lyrics there's nothing to imply having an empire is good and in fact the message of the song would imply quite the opposite notion.
Equally if people think of remembering when 'Britain was great' there are probably a lot of things they're thinking of but I doubt any of them are, "Ha! When we kept the darkies in their place," or similar. Yeah, Britain got rich thanks to the help of the ruling classes of all the civilisations we ruled, but I don't think you can draw a ruthless line across and say that any attempt to look back on the last 200 years with any degree of happiness puts you as a tacit supporter of the worst aspects of Empire.
but holding the idea and promoting the idea that all these foreigners coming over here and taking our jobs/living off benefits is what has destroyed/diluted/polluted OUR ONCE GREAT NATION is patently swallowing a mainstream drawn scapegoat
not sure I entirely agree with you on the lyrics of Land and Hope & Glory either but I'm not really open for that discussion right now - it may not be as fervent as some other nationalist song but it certainly doesn't paint a particularly historically accurate picture of colonial
I suppose that depends on your point of view - whether you think Britain has been a civilising force in the world for good or not ... in which case one might be rather more humble in hindsight
'cos if what she is saying is wrong then it's wrong anywhere
but if what she's saying is punishable by law then it's a technicality
The Internet is probably governed in the same way but, equally, you can print stuff similar to what she's saying in red tops and not get prosecuted.
Is the law unevenly applied? Maybe, but that's more a reflection on reality than anything else. The law is also there to serve the people and right now there are a lot of people very angry about what that woman said.
Once more (as with the thread about taxes and the like) it feels like you're taking a position of utopia and simply dismissing any sort of pragmatic analysis on the basis that it doesn't fit your utopian design. All very laudable but not necessarily good for a discussion.
clearly this woman is regurgitating opinions, phrases and sayings that are in the popular mainstream right wing press and other places
Was that idiot David Sharkey on Newsnight after the riots arrested for saying that it was a problem of race? No
both his opinion on the subject and the opinion of this woman are totally out of touch with the view of any sane person an yet these views still occupy the mainstream
the woman on the tram actually verbally abuses people, granted but I don't think she is any MORE responsible for her actions than folks saying the same thing on telly or in the papers or on the internet
that's all I'm saying
and I do think we are judging this largely on the medium - the dramatic interplay of the shaky cameraphone, the angry ranting woman, the sad looking child on her lap, the tense, potentially explosive nature of airing these views to that audience - rather than the message which, as I've said, is prevalent all over the place
My 'utopian' thing is because it feels like you're claiming there shouldn't be any difference between the likes of Starkey and DM comments, and someone going off on a big rant on public transport. I can only assume that could be the case in some kind of ideal world where the effort involved in tracking down on guy commenting on the DM is worth it or even as justified.
She's on a tram, which means she's agreeing to a bunch of rules, enforceable by the British Transport Police that include things like not drinking alcohol, etc. One of those rules will be about inciting racial hatred and verbal abuse. And yeah, the circumstances are very different to just reading down Daily Mail comments. I mean, we already know she's not just a misguided 13 year old doing the equivalent of prank calling people.
Starkey's outburst was on a discussion programme where not only was he asked his views but he had to engage them with other people who might oppose them and if you want another aspect here, he at least WAS in a discussion.
Personally I don't think much can come of prosecuting this woman and I doubt the police do either but they are there to serve us and it's clear from the furore that's blown up that there needs to be an action to make people feel like we're not standing for this.
what I'm saying is BECAUSE of Starkey and DM comments you have people going off on one on public transport
tram rules - fine. And a fine is probably what she'll get
but my point is that there needs to be a better way to dismantling nationalistic, colour prejudiced attitudes than punishing individuals for recieving them from unpunished institutions
I see your point here. I'm not sure of the causality. I think it's a lot more complex than seeing these things in print or on TV in those contexts but I guess you do too.
I'm not sure that means they shouldn't have bothered to do anything. I just feel like the wheels were set in motion and it would take something special to stop it.
so you'd better watch out
the working class are accepting. The middle classes are tolerant. Theres a massive difference you cunt.
as if the working classes are some kind of ameoba brained cretins who arent intelligent enough to sort through the bullshit thats thrown at them. Coming from a working class estate (with no coloured or foreign families at that) not one racist comment, quip, or reference was ever made. When going to play football against schools, no mention of skin colour or nationality was even thought about. As soon as I went to college, university and work - the middle classes were constantly moaning and bitching about religion, skin colour, foreigners and merely accepted it being present- i.e TOLERATED. You really are a fucking idiot, and Id take great delight in breaking your fucking neck
I really have no idea how you get what you've said from what I've said
can you explain?
come to his senses
realise his mistake
and offer me an apology
I wouldn't have done it on the basis of that alone.
theo i have been a bad little boy, please ban me, i deserve it :'('''''
and by ban, i mean fluff
I can only assume he's having a stressful time (what he wrote up there is fairly out of character) and would like help to try to avoid this site.
_"I can only assume he's having a stressful time (what he wrote up there is fairly out of character)..."_ Or maybe you've regularly seen him post physical threats to people hundreds of miles away?
I'm sure 'Body...' would have said something if he'd felt threatened.
he comes from a working class estate
Everything else he said was damned impressive up to that bit.
to insist on being that angry all the time. I don't know how they do it.
and the youtube comments are just making me depressed.
enoch powell idiots wading in with their usual shit too.
I mean there may be people who've failed to consider that this loudmouth racist may have a mental illness or personality disorder but the presence of said mental illness or personality disorder wouldn't actually mean they're not a loudmouth racist, or even necessarily excuse the behaviour.
I completely agree with DD down below though - it's really sad and horrible all round.
including the racist woman. clearly not of sound mind. my mum works with people with serious mental health problems and this woman is basically my mum doing an impression of one of her patients. poor wee boy :(
If all undesirable views were expressed by people who lacked intelligence that'd make things straightforward and simple but that doesn't necessarily mean it's true.
I assumed she was drunk...
Equalities issues are complex things and even people who are campaign against discrimination don't always agree on what actually is the right and fair things to do so I found your previous post a bit simplistic and was just picking up on that.
At the moment a lot of policy is to treat people differently based on class, gender and race or culture. For example, Oxford and Cambridge are under pressure to differentiate their entry standards to allow more comprehensive students in and schools tend to have different standards for adherence to school uniforms depending on if it clashes with cultural norms. Mainstream thinking on equality is you have to treat people differently in order to have equality of experience. By your argument, this makes most people who draw up policies for equality and diversity a bit thick. I think I'll personally reserve judgement on this one.
I don't make the policies.
The woman is off her face. I did a lol when she said 'Niggeragua' though.
or too many anti-psychotics, bit of the old tardive dyskinesia
might be worth switching her to an atypical though. Or just forcefeeding her diazepam. </sciencecorner>
whole name and shame phenomenon fucking stinks. She obviously has issues and what she says is stupid and offensive but these things happen and always will. Filming her and sticking her on youtube does no good at all. The idiot who filmed this should of showed the video to the police if they were offended or concerned, not stuck it on youtube. By making her the target of our hate, we avoid reading into our own contradictions, we believe we are morally superior because hey, im not shouting at black people on public transport. I can't be racist.
but what the actual fuck?
The internet is a fact of life in this day and age, things are going to instantly go viral. To the detriment of some (hic), but sometimes for the greater good of society, of which this is a pertinent example. Whilst we can't lynch-mob her in the traditional ways (hung, drawn & quartered springs to mind), do you seriously think that there's anyone who can exist in the 2000's Britain who is too stupid not to realise that people have camera phones and the internet?
Or would you prefer to return to the days when niggers were niggers and 'them fucking immigrants' who more often than not are fleeing from desperate economic or war-ridden countries, avoiding torture, financial ruin, corruption, rape and murder was the norm?
In short: fuck you.
we're still in the 1920s
the Great Depression is looming on the horizon
we still have all of those sparkly clothes, pearls and art deco *gushes*
we're at the General Strike stage
don't want to play. Time machine pls.
Not about whether it's right or wrong. Plus, just because everyone is filming everyone doing and saying everything, doesn't make it morally brilliant to do so, does it? The whole notion of even saying i think myself morally superior is a bit lazy and smug. It's probably right, but lets not all wank each other off about it.
just wondering? like, were you unsure?
they're being abused because they're no English
It's a Nationalist tirade with extra helpings of racism rather than a racist tirade
and they're being abused because of who the abuser is, who she thinks she is and what she thinks they are - not because of something they actually are
beyond trusting the exchanges she has with them on the tram
if they were a bunch of frenchies, or another white nationality, she wouldn't be saying shit.
Partly in the places where she abuses them for the colour of the skin and more crucially her entire crux in who she does/doesn't decide to be English in the rant is based around their skin colour.
her central tenet appears to be that people from other countries have devalued Britain. She mentions Polish people in this. They are mostly white. She says *why don't you sort your own countries out instead of coming here* etc. She's clearly racist in her tirade but she doesn't seem to be defending her race, she seems to be defending an image of her nation.
Maybe the distinction is a thin one but I think it's an important one because the issue of immigration and the devaluation of The Village Green and whatnot is a much more mainstream topic than racism and what she is actually exposing is an attitude much nearer to the mainstream way of thinking than simply ragging on skin colour
Afternoon tea on the village green hasn't been applicable there for at least 30 years. More like a visit to Ikea and 'which of my friends is going to get glassed on Friday night?'
Suspect she's inherited vicious anti-anything traits from parents and grandparents of old.
we could argue about for a long time - it seems possible, even very likely in her case
but Nationalism is some kind of *soft racism* that I see wheeled out everywhere from Morrissey to anti-Eurozone politicking and this nostalgiafest is a media construct of some Halcyon days that never even were
In part I agree but in part I think there's a danger of being like the right wing commentators in the US claiming that any vaguely socialist policy is the equivalent turning the US into a Soviet State.
Obviously patriotism and anti-EU are part of a sense of focussing on your own nation's interests that are related to the spectrum of thought that racism and nationalism also stand on but there are degrees of behaviour and, whilst you can't entirely separate them, I don't think it means (and I accept you're not necessarily saying) everyone with a reservation about the EU or a frustration with flaws in the UK council housing waiting lists system is a hardcore racist beneath the surface.
I guess my other irrelevant side point is that actually I wouldn't say nationalism is a soft racism - I think it can be every bit as extreme and unpleasant as racism in many circumstances.
I think nationalism is far more dangerous than racism because it is so much more readily accepted and politically massaged
I actually believe that racism quite likely springs from nationalism ie it is the political structures that divide us socially and set us against one another
and just as a post script here
we're all the same fucking human race
the entire concept of people of different colours, cultures and ethnicities being from different *races* was born in an era when great attempts were made in the name of *public health* to preserve *racial purity* - or in other words, to segregate
the idea of distinct races is one that really ought to be consigned to the history books
ok Theo, you can call me a Utopian now
I'm a big fan of a book called "Strange Fruit" by Kenan Malik which basically argues that a lot of current thinking, from anti-racists as well as racists, tend to overemphasise the importance of racial differences and persist with this myth of race being a definite construct and clear cultural/biological difference between people.
either way, i'm uneasy about this video being all over the internet.
thats quite fucking clear. These people do exist. But this is not the way to deal with the problem. She will learn her lesson through the law/counselling what fucking ever.
Say you had an uncle. Hes mentally ill and he says crazy things about the old days of 'glory britain', and he has these outbursts in public. Someone films him puts the video on youtube. I don't have to go into the possible consequences. Needless to say they don't know the context, that is that hes ill. We dont know whats up with this woman either.
Also I doubt he has learnt anything about accepting his fellow man. Neither does anyone who watches the video. Its just an atrocity display, of a sick man.
Your so quick to jump on me as old and backwards, when the perverse satisfaction we get from watching these videos is the oldest thrill of them all.
I attempt to add something into the discussion other than just mocking this woman, or saying shes awful. These things don't have to be said. Im glad I hit a nerve, and I may be wrong but hold back with the abuse.
I generally agree: it's not going to happen.
a) i can't believe godwin hasn't made an appearence yet (unless i've just not been concentrating while reading the thread so far)
b) 'chill out future girl' made me lol http://drownedinsound.com/community/boards/social/4311547#r6427126
She is clearly pissed or on "something". We haven't seen what happens before the filming takes place (not that it excuses anything), but she clearly thinks she is untouchable due to a combination of drink/drugs and having a child on her lap. Otherwise she would have got twatted.
in which the accuser condemns *them* for both taking *our* jobs and living off benefits and getting something for nothing
wonder if she was prosecuted?
angry people everywhere kicking scapegoats
But I'm going to post this and snigger anyway.
I Streetview'd New Addington (Where the charming lady's from)
and found all you virgins combined into one person:
Yes I live in Streetview.
Not saying she doesn't, but I'd be interested to know the reasoning- is it because she appears to be on drugs? Or because she's being very overtly anti-social? Or is it just the possession of racist/nationalistic vlaues?
you'd send her to prison though. she'd be with likeminded mentally ill people.
has posted this video and his pals are actually agreeing with the sentiment, one has actually quoted bernard manning: 'Just because a dog is born in a barn, doesnt mean to say its a horse.' i am completely gobsmacked. it makes me so sad.
the lady is completely vile and using language like that, especially with a toddler on her knee is completely unacceptable.
...i just want to see how bad the comments get first. to be fair to the lad, he was saying she's wrong, its his friends that are agreeing with her. i do usually unfriend anyone who even associates with racist people.
And undo my ^This to hofo.
It's not really fair to sack him off purely on account of his belmish mates if he's not the one being an idiot.
primary school and i have no desire to be in touch with him, in fact i've no idea why i accepted his friend request in the first place, that's facebook for you - he's one of those guys with hundreds and hundreds of friends.
but on a deeper level - if you have racist friends (like he does) and don't confront them about it, you are adding to the problem. i think people should speak out about racism and he hasn't.
Make your mind up
he didn't outright say it was wrong, he said: 'what a krazy woman! That's crazy with a Capital K!' before the video, by which i think (and hope) he means 'crazy' in a senseless/wrong way rather than a mentally ill way.
anyway, the bottom line is, a bunch of his mates have made some really horrible comments, including that awful bernard manning quote and the only response he's made is; 'I know if your going to have a rant, get your grammar right!' (sic)
I agree it's important not to let things go unchallenged but, at the same time, if racists are only left to mix with other racists and shunned by everyone else, it just entrenches their racism and creates a situation where they feel they've been unfairly rejected as people for expressing their opinion and those opinions become more entrenched.
I also think far too many people are so complacent in their stance that racism is obviously bad that they don't develop the skills and confidence to actually engage in arguments with racists and explain the flaws in their thinking, instead just going "nope, that's bad" and never really explaining why or fighting the argument. Which again, just lets racism fester.
The only way to confront racism is by getting racists mixing with non-racists and non-white people so they can get to know people who hold different opinions to them and start to understand the error of their ways.
Sticking them in a racist social ghetto doesn't help anyone.
we often reach a middle ground where we all agree that it's not actually the foreigners that they have a problem with ("hey, we're all just people trying to make a living"), it's employment law in general and European freedom of movement they're not best pleased with. And that if they want to do anything about that, then voting UKIP, rather than dogging on normal people from a different country to them, is probably the most likely way to get their voice heard (seeing as the three main parties, underneath their bluster aren't ever gonna achieve what they want).
Yeah, UKIP are divs, but at least then my family/friends' ill-thought out rants have been hewn of their worst/stupidest excesses and boxed into some sort of context that can subsequently be debated with in some kind of logical way (rather than just saying 'you're wrong' to a nebulous cloud of unconnected thoughts about 'illegals' etc).
*achieve what they want: i.e. what the ranty people (think they) want - to pull the drawbridge up on Europe
also, a lot of racists are so entrenched in their view that it is virtually impossible to have a sensible discussion with them. i think a zero tolerance approach to racism the best approach.
It's bollocks that it's impossible to have a sensible discussion with them. It's hard maybe but it's about developing the skills.
i don't have the skill, time or patience to have circular arguments with racists. call that smug if you want.
but has anyone mentioned that she looks Ket'd off her napper?
(not that that's an excuse obvs)
besides which, this video response is far funnier:
she clearly has some sort of mental disorder. i think the understanding extended to schizophrenics or manic depressives should be extended to her. no-one, however racist, would sit with their child in a public place surrounded by ethnic minorities and go off on one like that without some kind of serious cerebral chemical imbalance fuelling it.
she needs counselling or anti-psychotics, not a prison sentence.
She doesn't clearly have 'some sort of mental disorder'.
but she does.
I actually went? to school with this guy and he used to get digs for wanking in class, the little bastard, used to get bullied by this massive black lass who was dead popular called Big Bertha too, nice 1 for tryin to get away from your past kidlad!!!
Well done, everyone.
was shouting at people once and told a Somalian that he shouldn't have come to this country he should sort his own out and stop being a terrorist and so on and so forth. Which was ironic considering she was Irish.
If that's what you are all saying.
Old video but still. Not very relevant either.