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A few snobs on here, are you one of them?
whether it's about where you buy your food or whether or not you have tattoos.
some people will be more snobby than others and basically snobby about LOADS of stuff.
some people will just a have a few things they are snobby about.
Im a true hero to the working man
but not in the same way the bloody middle class plebs on here are.
Maybe you could explain.
Call it anti-elitism or anti-intellectualism or envy or class conflict or something else but what people call "inverted snobbery" is not a form of feeling superior/seeing others as inferior.
So that feeling of superiority can only happen because you perceive yourself to have an advantage. I don't think there's any point to split this up.
it's just a basic distinction of the subaltern.
is part of the belief that the less working class person is their subaltern.
And in fact, unless we literally only apply the word snob to people with genuine power over the people over whom they feel snobbish then your distinction seems to be more about your own prejudices than any proved definition of 'snobbery'.
Even the phrase 'inverted snobbery' is just a snobbish attitude to people you don't think have a right to be snobbish to you...
i disagree that it's "part of the belief that the less working class persn is their subaltern."
judging the assumptions and values that come with being middle class is NOT the same as judging people because of their material advantage.
You still haven't really defined snobbery in a way that matches your disbelief in inverted snobbery. I don't believe a word should really require you to first know the complete financial and social backgrounds of the parties, plus why it is they specifically feel they are better than the other before you can say if it applies or not.
but whatever it is, it's not the opposite/inverse of what we commonly call "inverse snobbery."
sure the people who think stuff like ONLY WORKING CLASS PEOPLE MAKE PROPER MUSIC etc are mistaken but it's not the inverse of people who think stuff like ew poor people.
we don't need to know the complete backgrounds of everyone. but of course we can point to certain practices, views, beliefs, relationships, structures etc etc. and say "that's middle class and has implicit middle class assumptions" or "that's not middle class"
Yeah, sorry: I honestly don't have the intellectual background to really understand your argument nor likely argue against it if I could.
if it's not the inverse of snobbery?
"Call it anti-elitism or anti-intellectualism or envy or class conflict or something else but what people call "inverted snobbery" is not a form of feeling superior/seeing others as inferior." - it's up there in her original post about it not existing.
Well oif that's the argument in a nutshell, I still think inverted snobbery is very much a real thing.
i don't think they're being snobby in saying it.
being either 'anti-elitist', 'anti-intellectual' or envious. It's also a little tenuous to call it 'class conflict'. By claiming snobbery must always come from the the upper classes to the middle/working classes or from the middle classes to the working classes you now need to define a new word.
You can be working class and a snob. My dad uses the term "respectable working class" to describe his family compared to his school friends who ate brown sauce sandwiches...
I mean they were no better off; walked to school in their bare feet etc. Yet still needed some sort of justificatory sign of their own betterness/moving up the world.
"the complete financial and social backgrounds of the parties"
it's more that "snobbery" broadly means looking down on certain things/tastes/acts that are associated with lower class lifestyles, regardless of whether the people engaging in them are literally poorer than you. whereas things like "films with subtitles are for pretentious twats" or "ladrock is the only REAL music" would more accurately be called anti-intellectualism or whatever. idk, you can use "snob" however you want i guess, but just in terms of the actual general definition of the word i don't think it really applies to the latter examples
snob? ?[snob] Show IPA
a person who imitates, cultivates, or slavishly admires social superiors and is condescending or overbearing to others.
a person who believes himself or herself an expert or connoisseur in a given field and is condescending toward or disdainful of those who hold other opinions or have different tastes regarding this field: a musical snob.
I think (but I am not sure) that DD is trying to make a point about how inverse snobbery, like the term 'chav' is used to belittle people who are not really in any power in society, but I don't really agree (assuming that's what she means). Otherwise I'm confused about it.
the key phrase being 'social superiors' which is pretty obviously a class-related term. also if we're doing dictionary definitions, "inverted snob: a person who scorns the conventions or attitudes of his own class or social group by attempting to identify with people of a supposedly lower class." so, interestingly enough, inverted snobbery is also supposed to denote something that middle/upper class people do...
has anyone ever actually heard *anyone* say that "only working class people can make proper music"? all the ladrock disciples i've met tend to define their superiority against 'fake' charty pop/dance music, the idea being that lads playing guitars are more authentic than rhianna or whatever. which seems to fall more into the second definition up there (i have superior/more authentic taste in music to you) than "inverse snobbery"
A couple of people have mentioned it but it certainly wasn't the sort of thing I was thinking of with 'inverted snobbery'.
There are many layers of music snobbery around.
just cos i'm honestly not sure exactly what you guys mean by "inverse snobbery". what, poor people hating on rich people? thinking they're "better" (morally? taste-wise?) than rich people? just generally being hostile towards things that are perceived as "intellectual"?
Holding it up like a badge of honour. They don't have to be musicians or whatever.
Look the problem with 'inverse snobbery' isn't that there's anything wrong with it, because there isn't. But I doubt anyone who feels proud of being working class, of not being 'pretentious', etc. thinks of themselves as actually being an inverse snob.
It's a term that someone else would use to describe their attitude, specifically someone that felt this person was lower down the social chain, a 'social inferior' if you will but one who wasn't attempting to ape their 'social superiors' but seemed perversely to believe they were in the socially superior position.
In a sense I guess it doesn't exist, but clearly one needs a term for what we're talking about and 'anti-elitism' or 'anti-intellectualism' or whatever are (to my mind) different things entirely, since they imply a confrontational attitude and a much nastier one. Inverted snobbery is nothing more than a feeling of superiority; anti-intellectualism is an attempt to smash the intellectual as it's accepting they have more power and are actually socially superior.
usually means that the person in question "perversely believes" that they're actually socially superior. i think the attitudes behind it are quite a bit more complex than that. good points in your last paragraph, i just don't agree that "inverse snobbery" is the most appropriate term
I would say it should just be called 'snobbery' but there you go.
The terms upper, middle and working class are external labels created and laid on top of people.
The implication of what you're saying is that I am socially inferior to Upper middle-class and upper class people and also that I am superior socially to working class people and lower middle-class people (if we assume I'm middle-middle-class, which is probably about right).
The problem is also that 'inverted snobbery' isn't really taken to me literally inverting the classic snobbery of someone rich to someone poor, mainly because in many ways snobbery isn't about aspiration these days but about feeling superior to someone as you already are. The 'inversion' is (as I pointed out up there) more about a perception from he POV of the person who believes they must be superior.
you don't, though. you can define or perceive yourself as "superior" in whatever sense but the term "social superiors" very clearly refers to the actual, external SOCIAL structure of class-based "superiority" that exists in our society. that structure isn't necessarily a simple or stable thing to delineate (and it operates differently in different contexts) but i think it's nonsense to suggest that "social superiority" is entirely invented by our own self-definition. you can use "snob" to just mean "someone who feels superior in any context" if you want, but then you're ignoring a lot of the complexity of class antagonism that the word actually connotes
intellectual superiors, financial superiors or your superiors in society, or whatever.
Social stuff is very much about a situation as you see it. The sort of bald class distinctions you're talking about are to do with society while I would say social stuff is to do with things like you and your mates down the pub, or who is *actually* the most important person in your work, even if they're not in fact the person with the biggest wage or highest job title.
Society might (well, does) look down on working class people as less trustworthy than middle class people in terms of how it would perceive those people in a court or law or as someone to do do business with but an individual would more likely pick different social things to base that trust on that might go against that sort of view.
so i suppose this is an argument of nitpicky semantics
or "social justice" we're not talking about some kind of subjective individual "situation as you see it", we're talking about actual societal structures, so i think my interpretation is better tbh
"social issues" or "social justice" are usually used in quite wide ranging ways. "social group" may well not be. not in the way that "class" perhaps is.
Being snobby is very much a small, personal thing. Society in the big sense of what you mean isn't the same as the small personal way we must mean for the term snobby.
Otherwise, as I said up there, you're having to mandate that anyone of a higher social class is automatically my superior (and anyone lower, my inferior). That's a very Victorian view but doesn't really apply very well to modern society.
I'm sure snob was fine meaning what you mean 100 years ago but I think to try to apply that sort of definition to it in this day and age is a bit short-sighted.
but anyway the only point i rly wanted to make is that the word "snob" has always had (and still very much has) quite specific class connotations and using it interchangably with some kind of anti-elitism/working-class "pride" or whatever is a bit dodgy because it erases the issues of class superiority that are undeniably inherent in the dominant understanding of the word, and conflates two different attitudes of "superiority" which have very different roots and social conditions informing them
aren't lengthy arguments over minor semantic quibbles LOADS OF FUN
do you think it makes me a snob to feel morally better than a murderer?
who have fuck all but think they're better than all those consumers?
(Amongst many, many others. It's all about perception.)
to consider herself above anyone but a murderer?
with your ability to fail to explain your points ever?
I am doing other things. I could explain WHY there is no ONE 'power chain' but I have three essays due for tomorrow.
DarwinDude, I'll remind you you're under oath.
You could have responded with 'no' or 'don't be silly' (since I was replying to Joey's jokey comment anyway) but instead you posted something weirdly cryptic which serves to say nothing. :)
It was completely opaque to me. I still don't know what you meant.
Being serious and saying something about society that I didn't get?
Just being a bit conspiracy theorist?
can people on here stop confusing USING SOMETHING AS AN EXAMPLE and COMPARING TWO THINGS?
"England despises intellectuals because the English respect utility and pragmatism, not ideologies, which are perceived to be a useless product of intellectual tomfoolery. England did not need ideologies for many years and therefore did not fall victim to any."
if I'm reading it right.
Like the Made In Chelsea bunch.
Is there really?
Did you not see the episode where that blonde bird went to easy london for a head dress photoshoot and her gay mate came along and was like eeeeeeewwwwwww east london
To be a snob is to be prejudiced against people because of pre-conceived notions, traditionally associated with class and the trappings of class.
Just because a person is posh (whatever that means) doesn't mean they're a snob. Deborah Devonshire, who is undoubtedly one of the poshest people in the country, is meant to be completely lovely to and polite and interested in anyone regardless of their background. Conversely, Hyacinth Bucket was common as muck but thought she better than everyone else and thus was a complete snob.
And of course I saw that episode, Mark Francis was rocking a leather jacket.
Anyone can be completely lovely and polite. I would be polite to someone who shops in Poundland. It doesn't mean I'm going to go shop in Poundland.
The more luxurious your lifestyle, the more you have below you to look down on. Just because you don't see any evidence of it, doesn't mean they're not thinking it. You don't have to say everything out loud to be a snob.
Maybe be genuinely respects everyone for the person they are and not based upon where they shop or how clean they keep their laminate floors. And this amazing non-judgemental attitude could hold true for anyone.
Otherwise programs like Jeremy Kyle wouldn't exists. I can't see anyone watching the people on Jeremy Kyle and thinking 'oh but I bet they're a really nice person'. People judge everyone and everything...no matter how small it is. Its human nature. I don't think there is anyone out there who truly loves and respects everything and everyone.
And anyway, we will never know what this super posh person thinks because I doubt she'll ever admit to being a snob. Snobs like to keep up appearances. They might think shit about people but they're not going to let anyone know that as they'll alienate a lot of people.
I'm not saying snobs don't exist, at every level of society. I'm not saying that posh people can't be snobs. Maybe I want to be posher (actually, I just like appropriating the trappings of the English aristocracy to annoy marckee), but I don't want to be snobbier. I, unlike Debo, am already judgemental enough.
but I reckon snobbiness occurs more in posh people.
I don't really know why anyone would want to be posher and what even is poshness?
YOU'RE THE ONE THAT CALLED ME A WANNABE.
I was only joking. Jeez, stop being such a snob all your life.
Reason for wanting to be posher: perceived improved chances of social climbing.
i'm not totally sure about this
like, yeah I look down on Jeremy Kyle people, but it's not to do with what clothes they are wearing, or how they talk, it's to do with the vast bulk of them being unlikable people who have done pretty awful things.
Would you look at them in the same way if they were all smokin hot? I think not.
which i don't think is the same thing
looking down on people because you have better clothes/better face/better body than them.
no it is not
let's say we have two Jeremy Kyle girls.
One has been taking the drugs and stealing some money and being generally naughty and is wearing a tracksuit, AND is a minger.
and the other has been taking the drugs and stealing some money and being generally naughty and is wearing a tracksuit, AND is a smoking hottie.
Yeah I'm going to look at them differently - but the only difference is in terms of how much I would like to sex the Jeremy Kyle person. That's not being a snob at all.
sometimes when i used to use last.fm a lot i would look at someone's charts and inwardly scoff at their boring taste. and then realise we had high compatibility and actually i quite like most of those bands. i blame this fucking website.
It's a quick way of checking whether it's OK to laugh at the crap they listen to.
I'm from Essex.
Especially when it comes to food and cleanliness
and when they're not, I turn my nose up and get all 'you're disgusting' to whoever made the mess. I don't think this is snobby but its just more particular.
I won't buy value or reduced food. I go to waitrose often and not just for treats. I like serving dishes.
I don't think the first bit is snobbery. The second bit might be but then it does have the phrase 'I go to waitrose often and not just for treats' which is a thing of beauty.
That's not a dig meo...just highlights how people are snobby about different things.
I SMELL A SNOB
I seem to remember a lot of people giving you hell for it in that thread though :)
You mispelled that last word.
Hygiene? I think you'll find thats correct.
which I couldn't be bothered to put in actual thought into.
povvos and their sense of humour...
Only thin bleach.
I don't buy cheap chocolate for baking either. I only used green & blacks...but thats not a snobby thing. It just makes the cake taste 10x better. Better quality ingredients = better tasting food.
would you buy that?
as its something that doesn't go off that quickly.
Still, if they did, I wouldn't purchase it. It would probably be on the turn and a bit white.
promotion is over, they need to get rid of them. Still perfectly fine but 50% cheaper with a big orange sticker on them to prove it. What would you do?
I'm not a lard arse who is going to consume and entire advent calendar or easter egg after the promotion has ended. I'll just buy a bar of chocolate, thanks.
just because it's in different packaging, even if it would've been cheaper?
I want a bar of chocolate. I do not want to open 25 windows containing tiny squares of chocolate just because it was a pound cheaper than a bar of chocolate I was fully prepared to pay full price for.
But as joeymahone kinda says, this is in danger of being the daftest subthread in a thread already full of other very daft subthreads.
It might be best for all concerned if we just drop it.
surely you are only a snob if you look down on the tesco plebs?
like I shop at waitrose but you'll still find me hob nobbing with the lower food classes.
and I don't buy waitrose reduced food stuffs.
Has that cleared everything up for you?
you are missing out!
why don't you buy reduced stuff ya mug?
Sounds like someone goes up Farmfoods and pretends to go to Waitrose
I've been rumbled.
but i am. always makes me think of this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOwjVVSNOtY
but mainly in an everything-i-say-is-right-if-someone-disagrees-burn-them-with-fire kind of way
Which means I'm better than all of you.
and then make a mistake.
its just as bad as ordinary snobbery, once you think about it and realise, then you are guilty
but no. the term inverse snobbery is a an instrument of the elite. we do not need to tolerate them!!!
"your prejudice against rich people and men" so yeah.
It is prejudice if it is going the other way ;D
Actually I dont know why Im winky laughing I actually believe that with my heart....I know I cant justify it with verbal reasoning very well.
But erm...yeah how can it be predjudice to be against something that you feel is bad for many others, and all you want to do is to let the target of your ire, to be merely brought down from the stratosphere to earth.....when its the other way round it is people saying that they deserve to be miserable.
i mean i don't hate anything just because it's not highbrow, but i do hate things that are shit.
so i guess its more about how much we look down on other peoples tastes.
I do that more than I feel that I should and therefore I am a snob, in my own terms.
I know I do
when someone admits they dont care for something much, then you can avoid judging them.
But when they are passionate and say that they love the music on x factor and say it with a real passion, then it is very hard to not feel dismissive to their taste and judgement, or to regard their critical faculties as being less than yours......and I guess that we (on DIS) are all guilty of that.
Reminds you you're alive!
each to their own innit
we have a girl at work who really likes the red hot chilli peppers. I look down on her a fair bit.
If the council or NHS did haircuts, would you go for that or would you go privately
I'm not insane.
and as you so eloquently put it into my mouth, it means that only insanity makes one immune to being a snob.
No sane person is not a snob.
Now this is a great hypothetical.
My hair is already pretty 'council'. Plus I'm stingy. So yeah, NHS all the way.
but i wouldn't be all like
OMG - YOU USE THE NHS TO CUT YR HAIR
NOT brushing your shoulder with her ample bosom
because Vince Noir accuses Howard of having his hair done by the council
I'm a snob so I don't care about what anyone else said
I have a bad haircut, terrible manners and ridiculous opinions.
I think it is.
And it is snobbery.
I was merely making a Grammatical remark with regards to the sentence:
'Working class snob' and it being an oxymoron (is a figure of speech that combines contradictory terms)
That was it. Nothing more. Nothing less. I wasn't discussing the idea of snobbery of disagreeing with things. Just making an observation on the sentence structure.
regardless of what class they are.
I only ever look down on people due to being a better, more deserving, intelligent human being than them......
It's not something I like about myself or like to admit but I do catch myself on occasion being a snob.
from a person like you.
There's nothing wrong with it. Embrace your snob.
cos it goes with the territory.
But ours is a 'good' snobbery not a bad snobbery.
I have basically gone to the next level of snobbery...I am snobbish of my type of snobbery cw others
Oh creaks. We all have a right to look down on you now.
It was a trap designed to catch the spelling pedants, and since it was a pit trap I am now 'literally' looking down on you
I'll come clean, it was a genuine typo of me trying to spell zactly or xactly
Started as a fansite for Birmingham's premier nightclub.
that time at Zonino when you said to me something like ''you! with your face!''
Think you might be a face snob.
how could that be snobbery?
kissy kissy kissy xxx
does that make me a snob?
:D - brilliant
what with being 5 foot 2.
human trash is human trash no matter where you're from doe