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Repaying magistrates' court fines whilst on benefits

colon_closed_bracket [Edit] [Delete] 39 replies 14:09, 31 October '11

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/8856827/Criminals-on-benefits-to-face-tougher-fine-payments.html

This concerns me a little, partially in relation to how you can reconcile these two parts of the story:

'Under current rules, claimants convicted and fined can be made to pay a maximum of £5 a week. That will rise to £25 under plans announced by David Cameron to ensure criminals on welfare forfeit a “significant amount of their benefits”.'

and this:

'Courts will still have discretion about payments and legal obligations requiring the state to ensure a basic minimum standard of life for all claimants will remain in place.'

if you're on £67.50pw JSA and someone takes £25 a week of that for fine repayment, that's going to leave £42.50 to pay for utilities and food (most people would struggle to maintain a basic minimum standard on this level of income).

a large percentage of magistrates' court fines are linked in some way to lack of income (e.g. TV Licence*, petty theft, driving without insurance) - so surely a hefty deduction is just going to lead to more offences.

*tv licence non-payment being a criminal offence - that's a whole different issue.

anyway i'll leave you to debate this. 14 replies.

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  • i deal with people on JSA / other benefits on a daily basis

    the blurb on award letters says something like "this amount [£67.50pw or whatever] is what the law says you need to live on"... so to then say that someone can maintain a basic standard of living on £25pw less than that is pretty flawed logic.

    out of interest, I wonder how much most people have to spend on utilities and TV Licence (if applicable) per week and how much that'd leave them for everything else. (assuming someone on JSA gets full housing and council tax benefit, which isn't always the case)

    colon_closed_bracket @bryangiggs | 31 Oct '11, 14:16 | X
    • rough calculation:

      actually don't worry.

      colon_closed_bracket @bryangiggs | 31 Oct '11, 14:24 | X
    • crush the weak and starve the poor

      brusma | 31 Oct '11, 14:12 | X
    • Dunno what there is to debate tbh

      it's just really horrible and totally petty and depressing innit

      still_here | 31 Oct '11, 14:13 | X
      Cementimental this'd this
    • This is just Tory sabre-rattling.

      Magistrates and judges, if they understand the law and its application properly, will almost certainly never ask for more than the £5 amount.

      marckee | 31 Oct '11, 14:17 | X
      • that's a big "if" though

        leaves a lot of discretion in the hands of the magistrates / judges. (not a massive expert on criminal law though)

        colon_closed_bracket @marckee | 31 Oct '11, 14:20 | X
        • They understand the law -

          it’s why they infuriate the lock-em-up-and-throw-away-the-key types so much.

          marckee @colon_closed_bracket | 31 Oct '11, 14:30 | X
          Cementimental this'd this
    • I'm not really for or against this

      but it really annoys me seeing how dismissive David Cameron is of £5 being taken away from peoples benefits. Like he has any concept of its value at that level of income.

      fin_ | 31 Oct '11, 14:17 | X
    • well...irrespective of whether those directly concerned deserve it or not

      (because the tories will argue they do deserve it)

      I wouldnt like to be walking through an area where this has happened to a lot of the locals, as I imagine it would vastly increase the likelyhood of being mugged.
      Am I wrong? or would this drive up the number of burglaries/muggings/thefts from cars/shops? Do we need stats to prove this or does everyone agree that this is pretty certain? CG, do you want to claim it will have the opposite effect?

      creakyknees | 31 Oct '11, 14:21 | X
      • scaremongering would seem to be unecessary highlighting the negatives

        I would have thought that if you introduce a law which might increase the amount of violent crime then it is very necessary to consider the likely negative consequences........anyway I notice that you avoid telling us whether you think that it is more or less likely for robberies/muggings to increase...what is your opinion cg?

        creakyknees @bryangiggs | 31 Oct '11, 14:28 | X
      • good logging out logging in speed skillz there ;D

        creakyknees @bryangiggs | 31 Oct '11, 14:29 | X
        this'd this
      • but... ohnevermind

        colon_closed_bracket @Masculinity | 31 Oct '11, 14:32 | X
        • and what is your answer to that which I asked at 14:28?

          creakyknees @Masculinity | 31 Oct '11, 14:39 | X
        • of course, it's best not to break the law

          but here's an example i see quite a lot of people who end up with magistrates court fines for non-payment of TV Licence. Usually, they haven't paid their TV Licence because they can't afford to, or they've paid something off first (bailiffs for council tax, solicitors for rent arrears or mortgage arrears, etc).

          To require someone in that situation to repay their debt at £25 per week whilst still insisting that they can afford to maintain a basic minimum standard of living seems a bit illogical. rights and wrongs of non-payment of TV Licence aside, people in that situation would be better off in a debtors' prison.

          colon_closed_bracket @Masculinity | 31 Oct '11, 14:42 | X
          • What about if you're in long term contracts or paying by direct debit

            and then lose the job you had and have only done one type of work your whole life but now you're old and there are no jobs in what you did before and you're not trained to do anything else?

            fin_ @Masculinity | 31 Oct '11, 14:54 | X
            • Shouldn't all the MPs who defrauded the country

              also be made to pay back a third of their income?

              Royter-Hatfood @Masculinity | 31 Oct '11, 16:25 | X
              • no, because masculinity lurvs them all

                it was, apparently not illegal, just dishonest and cheating.

                If you are rich and are dishonest and greedy and cheat but without it being made illegal (cos you make the rules), then that is OK by masculinity

                If you are poor and cheat to get by but it is illegal, then it is not OK by CG

                The world is black and white in his eyes, and this sort of view makes baby jesus cry.

                Some people would not have a problem with extremist governments issuing cruel and antihuman rules and laws, others do.....are you a dalek or not?

                creakyknees @Royter-Hatfood | 31 Oct '11, 17:53 | X
                • What wasn't illegal?

                  The expenses scandal? I think you'll find that it was.

                  Raanraals @creakyknees | 31 Oct '11, 19:01 | X
                  • well then why did only a couple of em get done?

                    i thought it was just that the few that did get done just sort of got it slightly wrong so got caught on technicalities rather than spirit

                    creakyknees @Raanraals | 31 Oct '11, 19:36 | X
            • erm did you answer the question I put to you at 14:28?

              I havn't seen an answer yet

              creakyknees @Masculinity | 31 Oct '11, 17:54 | X
            • If you cant afford a tv license

              then you say go without......fair enough it is technically illegal, and we all know that......but if someone did watch the TV then who exactly loses out? (given that they cant afford the licence anyway, and that there is therefore no lost revenue to the beeb)

              who needs recompence exactly? who has suffered?

              creakyknees @Masculinity | 31 Oct '11, 17:59 | X
              • everyone who gets drawn into TV license threads on DiS

                Cementimental @creakyknees | 31 Oct '11, 18:01 | X
                • oops sorry

                  i dont normally indulge in those

                  creakyknees @Cementimental | 31 Oct '11, 18:05 | X
            • did someone say....

              TV LICENCE!? :D

              Cementimental | 31 Oct '11, 14:53 | X
              this'd this
            • don't break the law

              keep all of your jsa.

              champo | 31 Oct '11, 15:05 | X
              • that argument justifies pretty much any punishment, no?

                don't break the law - don't get put in an iron maiden

                amnuck @champo | 31 Oct '11, 15:06 | X
                • something about rob halford and bruce dickinson

                  colon_closed_bracket @amnuck | 31 Oct '11, 15:08 | X
                  Cementimental, amnuck, fiendish_the_pelican, DeadJames, harru, and joeymahone this'd this
                  • Don’t bring your daughter to the slaughter - don’t get put in an Iron Maiden.

                    marckee @colon_closed_bracket | 31 Oct '11, 15:37 | X
                    Cementimental this'd this
            • probably shouldn't be a dirty crim then should you

              soapy | 31 Oct '11, 19:04 | X
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