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this is what someone shouted at me on my way into work today.
Maybe it was because i was drinking Starbucks
their tents and their clothes were made by capitalism though
buy your own loom
I think they have tents in Cuba
might be lies
would they then have had the opportunity to have tents and clothing that was not made by capitalism though?
this was when i walking by finsbury sq
no two articles agree numbers wise.
They've moved them more round the side of St Paul's and put metal gates up for the exits of the cathederal. They've got signs up asking for food donations now.
hmm, is this what undermines a cause these days?
Now I understand
All electronic products are, apple or otherwise, and the reality of how consumer technology is used in our culture now means that there's no way to just not use it on principle and still get anything political done.
*are made in china
and just confuse us to death now, you grizzly old bastard?
see? it's working!
You seem to readily agree that capitalism tends toward exploitation of workers in a drive for the profit margin to be maximised
and that leaves us with no locally sourced, fair trade, co-operatively owned laptops or coffee shops
and so the so-called free market you espouse is actually massively skewed against a socially conscious and responsibly sustainable way of life in favour of an all encompasing consumer driven addiction for the aggressively marketed goods
so the Starbucks & Macbooks are actually just as much symbols of our slavery to the system as they are of our complicity in the exploitation of the system
and that cycle of exploitative slavery is precisely what we need to break free from
I think you're confusing 'easy' with 'impossible'... understandable mistake, those are pretty similar concepts.
then they're completely complicit in capitalism's global dominance?
Riiiiight. Good one.
normal people living in everyday society and not dedication 100% of their lives to activism can't, and such people wanting to actually get a political message out thru the only communication/media channels which exist in our society right now DEFINITELY can't.
good at trolling tho
I haven't read comment - I'm sure it is very good tho!
i was just quoting cg
in what capitalism is and what it becomes - it is a malleable ideology - or at least should be in a democracy
but the power structure has been hijacked by a small hard-core of mega wealthy captains
basically the crew are ready to mutiny at their meagre rations and the paucity of the rewards of their mission - only the more extreme element are threatening to blow their own ship up
you are essentially a cabin boy who dreams of the day you'll be invited to the captain's table and their are many like you all patiently waiting their turn, laughing at the folly of the disgruntled deck-swabbers
and fair enough your patience may one day bear fruit
then again, the captain is fucking drunk at the wheel and we're about to enter foggy, uncharted territory where there be dragons, hurricanes and icebergs
you or I going to the apple store. People buying stuff is NOT the problem here and nobody in the real world is even arguing that it is.
but they're not, they're paid a shit wage because capitalism isn't working
so the trickle down effect is a trickle down of exploitation and paucity of choice and fear through lack of economic choice and independence
capitalism isn't working
Hey mister indigenous chieftain, we'd like to take some of this land and a bunch of your young men off your hands so that it'll be much less of a hassle for you to keep things in order
hmm, me have deep suspicion
we'll give you a whole bunch of nice shiny things
SHINY THINGS!!!! Throw in some fire water and you can rape the whole continent!!
tell me, when was the last time you sat down in a room or space that didn't have a corporate logo in it somewhere?
the notion that falling consumer demand would make the factory owners buck their ideas up is totally laughable, they're far more likely to cut corners to maintain margins
but in essence, I don't really think many people want an end to Capitalism they just want a better, fairer capitalism
the 1% in charge of the global economy are frankly doing a shit job if they can't even realise that just being a tiny bit more generous in paying decent wages would fuel growth and keep down the noise of the proletariat
Once again I am dismayed to be actually engaging with CG, but good fucking luck with not buying anything manufactured in the Far East.
common land has mostly all been enclosed.
you are not allowed to own land and then use it to the purpose that you would like without planning permission
there are many many things which compell people to pay into the system, I know because i have to varying degrees tried in the past to not live like this, and what you find is not that it is just due to lack of effort or hippocrasy by people to not live 'without the system' ....it is also due to the fact that regulation and the law will hinder (to an extreme degree) many of the activities that humans would need to do to live naturally.........CG - since you have not examined this to the degree that I have (I have considered it for over 4 decades), I dont really think that you are in a position to comment on peoples motivations......yes you may be right about many, but some will also be sincere and you cannot dismiss them so easily with your glib ignorance.
PS I <3 U
maybe as an environmental lobbyist you should stop wasting electricity by posting bullshit on a music forum.
....are you worth it?
what do you do?
for giggles, obv
I'd probably be outside proselytizing my ass off. They'd either get a few new converts or the protesters would get sick of it and go home, which is a win as far as their concerned.
lived and died for our sins and then was mutherfuckin resurrected, I would proselytize my ass of all the frickin time...
I don't like, but just saying.
They said that heat-sensor cameras show that almost all the tents were empty overnight - only 10% had anyone in them.
Most of the protesters have either just abandoned their tents or go home to sleep. Lolz.
Imagine if you heard something that was actually funny...
or go home during the day to wash and stuff
You do realise they are making a public protest right? They're not sleeping in those tents for a bet or to get in the guinness book of records or something.
LOL DIRTY HIPPIES HOW HYPOCRITICAL OF THEM TO GO HOME AND HAVE A SHOWER XD
Why don't they just turn up every day and sit there? I thought the point of an occupancy was that you occupy it like all the time.
every single person doesn't need to be there every second
Obviously if they ALL went home someone would come and take all the tents away :3
Its not really good protesting if they can't be fucked to stay there all the time, just when they feel like it.
Anyway no it isn't really good protesting but better than nothing. I'm just saying it's not funny or hypocritical at all that not everyone is literally sleeping there full time.
but then there are posters on the walls pretty much moaning about everything including 'there are loads of homeless people around' but its just confusing if they're moaning about homeless people but they're pretending to be homeless people for a short amount of time but really they're not homeless they're going home in the evening for a nice long hot shower and an m&s microwave meal.
starting from the original 'occupy wall street' protest (which was about disrupting the centre of finance as a protest) you can thinkin this has anything to do with homelessness or doing without consumer products!!!!!?!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?
traders from doing their jobs and therefore trying to halt the Stock exchange - which in turns stops the big capitalism wheel from turning. What I am trying to understand is what does sitting outside a church/tourist attraction achieve besides making a none-impacting mockery and upsetting a few Catholics.
we live in even more of a police state (safety wink) than the USA sooooo GOOD LUCK WITH THAT and they've had to kind of move somewhere vaguely nearby
should just run with it and turn it into a protest against the church...
is to defy the system, which includes the police?
The recent London riots (bunch of kids looting for their favourite brands) was more of a stand against capitalism, or rather a result of capitalism, and made more of an impact then these hippie wannabe lot?
it doesn't make any difference if they are there or not
If there was no one there, it would just be a load of tents and posters and the council would clear it up.
this is how all occupations work. you take it in turns. the only objective is to not lose the occupation.
the protest isn't showing everyone how long they can go without a shower and a good night's sleep. the protest is the taking of a space. it's also not productive to not have much sleep. don't know what these guys are spending their time doing during the day but in most occupations, people are doing stuff during the day in the space (if they're using it well that is).
Whats the purpose of taking up a bit of space on the pavement? What will that solve? I would understand if hundreds of people gathered there every day to show what they are upset about and what they are trying to change but they're not. They've just put some tents there are are lazing around indoors by the sounds of things.
You're learning well =D
i don't think these people think they are.
but you're talking about it. yeah you're talking about the efficacy of their protest and not actually engaging with the substance of the protest but i don't think you can say this movement has in any way strengthened the current capitalist system or deny that it has a high profile.
i'm not that interested in what's happening in london at the moment, tbh. but stuff like this is springing up everywhere and that is potentially exciting.
there was more to that
can't be bothered to retype
fill in the blanks yerself
it's basically just a bunch of dudes who put up tents a couple of weeks ago then went home? And about ten people who stay there the whole time? I don't understand. What's the point?
and that last night is representative of other nights. they my have agreed amongst themselves who was to go home and who was to stay the night.
I really don't think there's much hope you at this stage
I have not understood something on my very first time of getting involved in a discussion on anything. I do apologise.
Its not very nice to be dismissive of someone if they're trying to learn and understand what is going on but has difficulty just reading wikipedia. I'll fuck off then, cheers.
it's not like the economic crisis has been major news for the last three or four years
at least meowington's actually asking questions about it. it's not like she's just coming in ssaying hahahahahahahahaha what a bunch of wnakers hahahahahahaahahahaha/
I'm just saying that these approximate issues have been getting pretty mainstream attention for a fairly significant amount of time.
not the actual problems with the excesses of capitalism.
to play the whole *I'm only asking, leave me alone... * card is a bit weak, considering the tone of the posts is hardly neutral, *going home to m+s microwave meals, lazing about indoors doing nothing all day* -...
It isn't ignorance, it is unsubtle socratic irony.
Its just I walk past these people everyday and they're not doing anything. The posters on the walls are about anything and everything. From what I can read, they're pissed off that people who work are earning money and buying stuff and that wrong.
How else am I supposed to learn about stuff without asking questions or talking to people on here who seem to have very strong views about it? I have questions to ask to be able to understand what goes on. I don't want to just read the guardian or the daily mail or wikipedia because I can't take in information that way. I want to ask questions and then for someone more clued up than me to answer them. I don't get why they are there. I don't get why they are doing it. I just want to find out why. It just seems like a joke to me that they've put up tents and then they're not even staying there half the time.
and should probably be asked about most protests in some way or another.
My point was, that I think your posts already had an opinion in them, from the tone and such (as I mentioned above), so my reply was to DarwinDude's comment that at least you hadn't come in here in and said they were all shit lolz etc..., I was pointing out that I thought your posts did have a small element of that approach...none of which means your questions weren't valid.
In other news, Masculinity- yep, you are a big strong hero and that's completely what I said/implied...have a biscuit.
which is why I'd like to base an opinion with a little bit of information behind it. Right now its just a surface level thing that there are loads of tents and weird posters up in an area I have to walk through to get to work and that is all I have. I could just leave my opinion at that where I just think its a waste of time and they should just go to work or something but I'd like to know what they are actually there for, which seems like nothing to me. They've not stopped or changed anything from the way it was before they arrived, have they?
they have raised awareness a variety of issues, got some serious media coverage and showed solidarity with other movements from across the world... the method and message of any movement will often be contradictory and unclear to begin with, but things are able to change, many things have before (segregation issues, women's vote etc)... the first step to all of these things is overcoming apathy to the extent that you get involved in whatever way you can. That is happening, people are talking about fairer ways of governance and finance, even at a basic level this is worth applauding I think.
Look at it this way, how many people are looking into the rot at the centre of our financial model that maybe wouldn't have had they not seen this in the news/on their way to work?
i was protesting about, would be?
however someone like marckee could perhaps write the placards to have succint yet useful content, he seems to manage the trick of balancing good content with understandability very well
unless of course, you have followed each protester home and night and checked which brand of meal they put in the microwave.
then just assume you're right all the time.
Besides, you make a valid point and I agree with you, I see this as the most pointless 'protest' if you can call it that and I think it makes a mockery of what the original 'Occupy Wall street' stood for.
can you explain please?
p. creepy TBH
I think Britain should jump the gun and just default on all its debts.
With their using of fucking computers and phones and eating of fucking food and shit.
Not like the older, better revolutions and protests, they at least had the good grace to to not use guns and boots and printing and food and stuff...
but its funny all the same
uuuuuuuuhhhh..........guys........ they're not protesting AGAINST themselves having money or being able to buy things?!! O_O;
Wonder what I did wrong...
they have become sort of symbolic of modern capitalism, obviously they are not the heart of the matter.......I used to use 'tie rack' and 'sock shop' as being symbolic of the underlying emptyness and valuelessness of the thatcher boom years of small (pointless) business successes that were merely riding the wave of unfounded(in the long run) optimism of bullish yuppiedom and corporate financial britain
it's too bloody subjective. CG can come out and say "it's working because it fits with my world view", creaky can come out and say "it's not working because it doesn't fit with my world view" and we might as well just have monkeys throwing shit at the wall
whether it ought to be or not
.....what do you think? are you confident that the people who are/were holding the reins of power and influence are actually able to forsee the future and are able to steer competantly to avoid catastrophes? I had my own world view and people disagreed vehemantly with it......now it seems that many people are screaming on every news program that the current system is NOT the answer and does not have the ability or foresight to be able to steer competantly.......this is due to the current model of capitalism being too suceessful in the short term (due to the mechanisms of the market and gov systems) so that it has become too mono systematic for its (and our) own good.
It needs changing, majorly, and a dialogue needs to be taking place to define how it needs to change......unfortunately at the moment there are still some clingons, that are insisting that its the best system and we should stick with it.
I think that there is a better ideal, but we obviously cannot just switch from one to another, what we must do is to establish is how to find a direction that will not cause great increased suffering and hardship for the 7 billion, and that means making sure that the current system does not collapse in an unplanned/uncontrolled way.
On the other hand I would very much enjoy having a throwing s***fest with cg whilst we are dressed as apes, it would be a great spectacle (actually it would be great to see cameron, clegg and milliband having one)
so, i dunno, civil war? mass suicide pact? mass-falling-down-style-rampage? just...burn shit?
-Look! A hypocrite hippy in Starbucks!
-Er, yeah, but what about that huge office block next door full of financial industry types? Aren't they worthy of your consideration?
-Eh? Whatever. Look! A student with an iPhone!
*not using paper (Idiots!)
*had received a state-funded education (Hypocrites!)
*had not receive a state-funded eductaion (idiots!)
*had received state-funded dental care as a child (Hypocrites!)
*had not received state-funded dental care as a child (Ewwwww!)
*using a pen (Hypocrites!)
*not using a pen (Idiots!)
*using the internet (Hypocrites!)
*not using the internet (!diotic luddites!)
*using public transport (Hypocrites!)
*not using public transport (Pathetic!)
*drinking water (Hypocrites)
*using sleeping bags (hypocrites!)
*using money (hypocrites!)
*not using money (HA HA, IDIOTS!)
*in employment (hypocrites!)
*not in employment (Useless scum!)
*showering regularly (hypocrites!)
*not showering regularly (Useless smelly scum!)
*of fixed abode (hypocrites!)
*of no fixed abode (Useless smelly sub-human scum!)
*using public conveniences (hypocrites!)
*not using public conveniences (disgusting, useless sub-human Scum!)
etc etc etc ad infinitum
so it doesn't need to make total sense in some ways. I mean it's not actually in wall street obviously because not everyone in London who wants to make their voice heard can hop on a plane and go there.
or sit around the Lloyds building?
Surely that would be a bit more fitting?
the occupation wouldn't last long in those places. They'd get moved on immediately.
police can physically only beat/arrest so many people...
some pubic, some not, which is what makes it complicated to evict them.
kind of good rant from noise/performance/drugs artist Bryan Lewis Saunders
I thought that was pretty neat, is all
I got into a 'debate' on the subject with a facebook friend's facebook friend which resulted in this gem:
?" point being its always a double standard with your type its like talking to satan or a psyzo or rumplestiltskin"
for clarification re: "your type".
maybe 'inspiring' at a push, but i don't think people are fully aware of the kind of cranks that are involved in these movements. i can only speak of my own knowledge locally, but you're talking about people who look up to jim corr and watch 9/11 videos all day. NB i'm not saying ALL of them are like this, probably not close to half, but i'd say it's a sizeable enough proportion. be careful what you wish for/endorse
Thing is, though, that attending the same protest as someone doesn't mean you endorse everything they believe in.
i just wonder what's the solution that the protestors have in mind. it's easy to define yourself against something. where does it all lead to?
a) They are a disparate group of individual humans with different ideas and no leader or single fixed dogma
b) they (we) aren't the ones who's job it is to find 'solutions'; that's what we're supposedly paying the politicians, economists etc to do.
Like the quote at the end of this Guardian piece:
66 Even if they don't have a solution, people still have the right to say no. It's only once people start saying no that we will start thinking about what the solution could be. 99
Now I'm just really baffled.
they're probably on about fox news ...
"I don't have facts to back this up, but..."
they keep trying to patch it.
'He added: "I don't see the editor of the Daily Mail protesting outside Westminster all night for his fucking referendum. He writes his twitchy, barely coherent drivel and then gets chauffeured home at tea time.
"And apparently, if you turn the thermal imaging camera on his house you can see Melanie Phillips taking a dump on his chest."'
make them ALL that good from now on
Does any of this even matter? Is this occupation against global financial injustice undermined if some of it is part-time? Does it maybe not even just strengthen the protesters' cause, as it reminds us that these aren't layabouts with nothing else to do; many are professionals with jobs to maintain, students with essays to write, or parents with children to care for. People who can't be at the camp the whole time.
when she kept repeating that people had to nip home to feed their cats, rather than explain things properly. Might be harsh to have a go, but if you're not confident in defending your corner, don't volunteer your fizzog for national TV and make an arse of yourself. Nominate someone more eloquent to ram the message home.
I suppose this is always a potential problem with a leaderless/deliberately non-hierarchical movement, though.
The Times front page is a total failure of inductive reasoning, either way.
I'd like to change "is a total failure of inductive reasoning" to "looks like a bare-faced fucking lie":
would have been funny.
donation isnt it? not an actual admission charge?
If it is then I would want to see more than just the architecture
Id want to see a stripper vicar and a vicar in a tutu dancing with cancan ing nuns, a bishop doing some baloon modelling
are full of the most unpleasant people imaginable. glasgow and manchester in particular. a woman was raped at the glasgow one the other night. the manchester one is run by anti-Semitic, sexist, homophobic, racist, transphobic, poo-throwing nutjobs. they've stopped doing it in manchester i think but from what i heard from people who went along to see what it was all about, they are absolutely revolting people.
dunno about london though...
designed to destroy the rep of the protesters? you know, like cg trying to cement the reputation of unreasonableness of the right by pretending to be a tory and then just playing out a characature ;)