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I love it when gypsy stories are in the news.
What is your favourite and least favourite thing about gypsies?
built by a gypsy next to his house down the road from a travellers' camp site. Someone tried to nick our car once from outside and he beat them up. 'Can't be having people fookin with me rock sters now can I'
Least favourite thing - At the place where we used to do fishing trips at school the week before we went on a trip once some gypsies covered a 15 year old in petrol and threatened to set him alight if he didn't hand over all his gear. As such I was always terrified of whenever we went down there.
Also when gyspies took over rugby club's pitch and we couldn't play for a month. Thankfully our club house was all locked up and had steel shutters. It looked like the siege of Vienna when the police finally said we could go back
Pretty sure that they weren't Gypsies though. I'm middle class, I've never had dealings with them.
you can't just roll up somewhere, build a house and be all like 'I live here now, I ain't leaving'
But it does seem a little cynical that they are seriously going to cut off their electricity and waterm, then forcibly evict them all over what is essentially a planning dispute. There are children living there ferchrissakes.
and surely they were expecting it anyway? they know they're not alowed there.
so it is yeah, a planning dispute. that's it
didn't realise that.
Which you're ostensibly never going to be allowed to build on, which will have been reflected in the price they paid for it*, but then they went and built on it anyway.
It does put Basvegas council in a pretty impossible position - I'm sure they don't want to spend a third of their budget on moving a load of people on from somewhere they knew they weren't meant to be, but equally they'd get a bollocking if they just caved in, so...
The one thing I'm not so clear on is why it's taken quite so long to get it done. Obviously it takes time, but if the whole process takes over a decade then of course people are going to have bedded down pretty hard.
*Assuming they bought it after it became green belt, although I don't know.
cut off their water and electric, tell em they're not having them back and they'll probably clear off after a while.
are they paying for their water/elrctric or have they rigged it somehow?
if people were free to do as they liked (only taking in other peoples basic human rights into consideration)
and someone I know got headbutted in the crotch by a dog.
Least favourite: when they pitched up in the football club carpark during a busy part of the season.
that was me who got headbutted. If not, then that dog had a serial problem.
I thought I'd avoid naming names after yeterday's serial thread deletions.
I missed all of that. What happened?
Multiple threads were deleted. The internet shut down for an hour in protest.
whenever my brothers are working on a big site, they always get approached and you can always spot a gyppo from their first line:
"yer man said I could have your _ _ _ _ " [ladders / copper / tools / scrap metal]
My favourite gypsymyth from childhood is that they "steal clothes off washing lines".
"My friends brothers girlfriend's brother in law was in the house, and there was a knock at the door so he answered and there was a gypsy woman there. She said 'do you want to buy some pegs?' and he said that he didn't, so the gypsy said 'are you sure?' and motioned at the pegs that she was selling, and they were the ones that had been on his washing line 5 minutes before.
I was always surprised when the bill came to a lot less than I expected, and also that she would ask me what our opening hours were like 15 times during the transaction.
One day I decided to pay closer attention - when she asked about opening hours, I said 'I've already told you'. Then I clocked it. She would take the barcode label off the value 25p salt shakers and stick them onto the barcodes on nappies and washing powder.
With some bluster about trade descriptions, I took them off, and scanned them at full price. She then told me to take them all back.
She never came back to my till
13 yr old traveller kid: 'Here, can I use dat?'
My dad: 'Afraid you need a special license to use this son'
Kid: 'Yeahs I got one of dem'
Have you seen this?
It's dead good (well it's ok - worth a watch)
Least favourite - They do whatever the fuck they want
I think she's a gypsy anyway, she drives a caravan to work and has a moustache
my least favourite thing - her stench
the local coppers refer to them as Caravan Utilising Nomadic Travellers
least fave: the shocking way they treat their women, grabbing, etc. pretty much rapists.
you'll be walking by a nice middle class suburb and BAM HORSE ON THE COMMON, walking out of h&m BAM HORSE BY TH DONUT STAND
least favourite thing: those extra crazy inexplicably rich gypsies that build mansions in the middle of council estates. just fucking horrible people.
not really, come on
not particularly I think, I mean they are relating anecdotes. and they are not particularly jumping from anecdotes to utter condemnation......you cannot say that annecdotes are unacceptable, instead annecdotes could be discussed, because this board isnt full of particular haters......yet there are particularly rabid haters outside this board, and it is this that is worrying.......to be able to discuss low key annecdotes could actually help us to understand the extremes of predjudice.......to discuss the factors (annecdotes) that give rise to the extreme hatred that we might enocounter outside of dis is perfectly acceptable for liberals, as long as there is the sincere intent to try to arrive and improved understanding.
i LOVE those old style caravans they had. Beautiful big hand painted ones and horse drawn. (not really a caravan)
people always think im kind of gypsie looking.. more the type that would read your palm.
I got surrounded back home by a family of travellers. One of the teenage daughters threw a fizzy drink in my hair as i past and i went nuts. Two seconds later i was surrounded by a full family. A little boy kicking my shins and a big mother traveller coming towards me shouting ''whats goin on over here?!'' and literally along with around 8 other teenagers of all ages.
i didnt take no shit though. But i was terrified. The ones we grew up with in our hometown had a really bad name for theft and violence.
but other than that.. Ive learnt a lot this past few years about them and their history. I have nothing but good things to say about the most of them.
I suppose it is, but they do seem to be mostly bad don't they.
we had some old school ones in the village a few years ago, in the nice old hand painted horse drawn caravan. Then we had some pikey ones a while after.
There used to be one in town where I went to college who'd sell you heather, but her technique for selling was to come up to you, mutter something on incomprihensable, shove heather in your hand and then demand money, I had a few friends who actually gave her money too, I wouldn't be annoyed if she tried to sell it in a normal, polite way.
I presume we all just remember the bad ones more then the nice ones, as the nice ones keep to themselves (I presume).
also, do gypsies count as a race, surely they count as 'caucasion', along with us.
people don't really use "Caucasian" to denote European anymore. Roma, for example, are an ethnic group. Yes they are European. But so are Bosniaks. I don't think you'd argue the ethnic cleansing against Bosnian muslims wasn't "racism."
Travellers have also been victims of genocide. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7844797.stm
To stereotype them and express this kind of hate against an ethnic group of people is pretty pernicious if not racist.
like I said, we had some nice ones and some pikey ones who stole bikes and stuff in our village.
I was just passing comment on why you only ever hear bad stories.
and I don't really consider race when I think about whatever group of people, I've never seen it as much of an issue.
you're still expressing pretty intolerant and prejudicial views in this thread.
And surely, if you're not considering their membership of a particular group as having anything to do with their behaviour, you wouldn't be generalising like you are? You may just be pointing out a trend you think you've observed but it's pretty silly to pretend you've not considered race.
and those first two lines were knowingly stupid. The rest of the post were personal experiances. Of course I don't think all gypsies are the same, just like any other group of people.
maybe if you weren't so eager to jump dowb everyones throats and call them a racist you might be a bit happier.
Nice to know.
now go away
Think what you want, I know I'm not prejudiced, or racist, or whatever it is you're coming out with.
fuck off moron
joke's on you I was just pretending
I blatantly contradicted myself on the second line, I thought levels on intelligence on here were a bit higher, I'll make sure to clarify my posts a bit more in future.
i mean we live in postracial times anyway right guyz? i mean i didn't even NOTICE that i'm white! we're all the same really! equal prejudice for everyone!
fuck off yeah, cunt.
but it's very easy for race not to be an 'issue' if you're someone who's race has never been made an issue. i don't think you can adequately discuss any 'group of people' without taking race into account as a potential issue and considering the ways racism might have quite deeply permeated the discourse about that group, even if you don't think YOU PERSONALLY are consciously expressing racism. however innocuous and reasonable you think your attitudes are, they don't exist in an ahistorical vacuum
that I don't consider race before I say things about [whoever], I judge people on how they act, not on their race, not everything has to be about race, are you saying I shouldn't say anything bad about gypsies because of their ethnic background, and because they've persecuted in the past? Or about black people, or asian people because of the same reasons?
but what you definitely shouldn't do is make sweeping statements about groups of people that JUST HAPPEN to play into deeply ingrained racist tropes about the behaviour of those groups, based on a handful of minor bad experiences you've had. if you were once mugged by a black person, you presumably wouldn't use that as justification to share lots of anecdotes about how black people are massive criminals
and obviously didn't mean the second line.
And my anecdotes went each way, one bad one good, so I don't see why I'm getting so much shit for it all.
but still: 'I don't really consider race when I think about whatever group of people, I've never seen it as much of an issue.' was a pretty awful sentence, which perhaps could have been deconstructed more eloquently without the use of heavyhanded sarcasm
So a few 'lads' went and torched their caravans. Dont mess with smackheads is the moral to that story
their outfits are funny and really over the top
Least favourite - I dunno.
No matter how lighthearted this thing is, it's disturbing.
That said, (and this is an explanation, not an excuse) the behaviour of a great many travelling people seems brings out the NIMBY in even the most open minded, kind-hearted of people.
This is a group who have been persecuted for centuries. They do have specific cultural needs that we do need to recognise. There's a worryingly low level of dialogue with these communities at every level of authority.
She was after my mum's Silver Corss pram, but clearly didn'ty have time to swap the babies too, so when my muum came out of the newsagents she discovered a rusty old buggy, and this gorgeous fat dark curly haired grubby little porker of a baby giggling in it, whilst down the road its mum was struggling with the extremely unyielding old fashioned hood of her newly acquired pram, whilst simultaneously trying to shut up her new little blonde Miss Piggy child. She was quite relieved when my mother cuaght up with her to do the swap. (my mum decked her).
This story is brilliant.
because only half the homes have to go, half can stay, and isnt it a scrapyard? ...the buildings are not that permenant.
By moving on half of them thay are surely creating MORE hassle, because the land as it is is NOT going to revert back to rural idylicness, PLUS you are then going to have half of the travellers having to move somewhere else.......possibly another plot of land in another area of green belt......so basically spreading the 'issues' around.
In the meantime it is costing lots of dosh plus lots of stress to everyone. So before they move them on, I hope they have done an impact assessment of what they think the likely outcome of the eviction will be (other land camped upon or camping on the towns roads etc)
from the sound of things the council is just going through the motions of 'procedure' because of complaints from locals who do not like there being 'a large concentration' of travellers.
In a sense it's not so much about the specific piece of land or this case, but the principle and precedent - i.e. if they're allowed to flout planning laws (assuming they actually have and it's not just alleged), then why shouldn't any other person be allowed to build whatever they like wherever they want.
No doubt prejudice has added to the pressure locally to do something about it in a way that it often wouldn't in local planning disputes and it's bound to cause further problems down the line - as one of those due to be evicted said, if turfed off their land they'll just pitch up at the nearest free place they can park, be that a Tesco Car Park, or a school playing field.
Ignoring the inevitable necessity of following the legal process, difficult to know how you'd actually resolve this kind of thing once you're in that situation.
In a lot of ways a lot of people wouldn't care to admit, Dale Farm is actually quite a good gypsy site, and as creakyknees said, it would be far easier and far cheaper for everyone involved if it was allowed to stay.
BUT they have consistently broken the law, the council have an obligation to uphold the law, and they cannot pick and choose which laws they choose to enforce.
It's a colossal mess, but they know that more than anyone.
eviction will not prevent them from breaking them similarly elsewhere and probably in a distributed number of locations, so the number of locations that the law breaking would take place would be in multiple places elsewhere.
Normally and in a land where there is plenty of resource then it would be less impact to just continuing the merry dance of move em on, they set up site somewhere else, move them on they set up site elsewhere, etc.......but now there is very limited and reducing resource......surely in these circumstances the authorities should be carefully choosing which 'battles' to fight, rather than just be triggered by due process........consider whatever it is going to cost (to no ultimate end avail to evict) ....4 million? i think for the policing? well thats 4 million that cant be spent on keeping physically criminally dangerous persons from hurting the general public (due to prison place shortages ......(see also UNUSUAL sentencing for riotors))
At a time when everyone is getting extreme cutbacks, seeming proflagacy, due to merely following process, rather than rationing the available resource based on 'effectiveness' is unjustifiable, and is more likely to bring the law into disrepute, and reduce further the confidence in our legal authorities (i.e. they are unthinking)
the council also has an obligation to look after those unable to look after themselves, like OAPs or the mentally handicapped.....so thats some of that budget gone.
What I mean is, that with the vast shortage of resource, the councils on the whole WILL NOT be able to meet all their obligations.
Given this they should be able to pragmatically CHOOSE which ones they will keep.
I am a planet hugger, but given the direness of the economic situation and all leaderships ineptitude at preventing it, I would expect many large capital environmental initiatives to go on hold. (conservation and non profligacy should be the motto for now)
(it is true that sweden managed to invest in NECESSARY common infrastructure to provide the growth they needed when their economy was stagnant several decades ago.......but I cannot see any of the current leaderships having the foresight ability understanding to do this (except bizarrely, for the chinese)
It constitutes a third of Basildon's annual budget (on the whole, it is a fairly well managed council).
It is insane, I agree. On balance, I don't think I would go ahead with the eviction. But you would also have to accept there are consequences of that, in that you are condoning a heinous breach of planning law for the benefit of one group and the arguable expense of the local, settled community.
He used to work at a market as a rent collector, so he had quite a bit of contact with them.
One time, a group of them were running a scam involving mobile phones. I’m not sure of the exact details, but basically, people were paying around £20 for what they thought was a mobile phone, only to have them replaced in the box by stones?!
Anyway, they scammed a handful of people- the key to the trick was apparently to only do it to a few people. For some reason they decided to scam a guy my Dad could only describe as being “the twin of Mr T”.
This guy discovered he'd been scammed, and chased one of the gypsies across the market. The guy managed to get away into his car, but the big Mr T guy smashed the windscreen with his bare hands, and dragged the gypsy out.
My dad said he had never seen someone so angry in his life, and that it was lucky that the police managed to restrain the big guy...
Show someone something valuable at a good price then either take it out of sight to be packed and swap with something else, or swap it while they go away to get cash.
The last line is brilliant.
By asking for change of a twenty and changing it into loads of denominations then at the end going ' and give me the twenty pound note'
Thankfully I'd be briefed, so I just told him we didn't give out change.
He wasn't a gypsy though. He was just a CUNT
let's be clear. it's ok to have a problem with an ethnic group of people, just because they belong to an ethnic group, doesn't mean they are somehow exempt from criticism. yes, you can't say that ALL [insert group of people] are [THIS] because like everything, there are always exceptions, but any group of people are going to develop general traits which will represent them.
the opinions expressed in this thread are about gypsies in english towns, who are, by and large, not pleasant people. if everybody who lives on jersey shore moved into your town and started repopulating, would you hate them because they are MOSTLY awful, or would you completely back off because they're also mostly italian american?
the point is, nobody in here hates them just because they happen to be gypsies. there are substantiated causes as to why that specific group of people have a bad reputation.
people have given anecdotes that demonstrate positive and negative behaviour by travellers (OR WHATEVER) - what are you basing your statement that they are "by and large, not pleasant people" on?
imagine your attitude transported to the USA in the early part of the last century. How would you have viewed black people, who were largely pushed to the fringes of society?
i imagine i would be able to see that the black people were being persecuted and excluded purely based on the colour of their skin, which is undeniably despicable. even today when people are of the opinion that black people are the ones more likely to mug you, more likely to rape you, i usually think that yes - in certain areas that's probably true, but it's not because they're black, it's because they're still victims of generations of being pushed to the fringes because of their race.
my statement about gypsies in towns and cities being largely not pleasant people, is of course partly anecdotal, part personal experience. i'm open to being proved wrong, and it's not like i have this blocked mindset where i have a predisposed idea about how every gypsy will behave. i've just never met or encountered one that didn't display some incredible antisocial behavior.
could just as well have been spoken by anybody discriminating against various groups/races in recent history because of the feedback loop of a group being excluded by society and then the consequences of that exclusion being used to justify their further exclusion.
which goes back to what i was saying to danielkelly below about how you can't consciously treat one antisocial group of people the same as one that happens to belong to an ethnicity due to the added historical weight.
i still think my point is valid, but it's not right or productive to actually express it.
those are always fun
If I didn't like someone because I found them annoying, I wouldn't attribute that to the fact that they were Italian American.
You're basically just saying judging someone by their ethnicity is ok if that particular ethnicity SUCKS.
that's exactly my point. their ethnicity is irrelevant, it's the traits they have developed as a group of people that matters. i don't think race needs to come into it until you have actively persecuted somebody based on blind prejudice.
They (travellers or people on Jersey Shore) have as much right to a cultural identity as we do. If we find it "annoying", that's our problem.
Your last sentence displays a really warped view of race. If you're intolerant of the "traits" of someone who's different from you, race has come into it pretty early on.
i love meeting new people from different places and backgrounds.
in fact my entire point here has been that it is possible to take issue with a group of people based on their own actions, as opposed to intolerance of their difference to you.
SOME OF MY BEST FRIENDS ARE BLACKS! SERIOUSLY PEOPLE!
some kind of actual racist statement about black people
i haven't made any kind of racist statement, i was pointing out that i am not intolerant of different people, which darwindude just decided to pull out of his ass.
it's ok to have a problem with an ethnic group of people
Erm I don't think it is. Stop grouping people together and you'll probably enjoy your life and get along a lot better. Treat them as individuals regardless of what you perceive the traits of their 'ethnic group' to be.
this site sometimes.
South Park's still a documentary, right?
hang on until the coalition introduces the cuts to all that pesky planning process red tape that stops people from developing land and hinders economic activity.
Before i started reading.
Good work everyone, as you were
I've had many experiences with gypises and to be very begrudgingly honest, they've all been absolutely horrible. Logically I understand that my experiences are just that; my own and not really a decent basis from which to make a judgement of a very broad community. My gut instinct when around gypsies still tends to betray my conscious lefty bedwetter instincts though. For shame.
Then again, if you're going to have any sort of nuanced discussion about gypsy communities, it's hard to come to any conclusion other than that they are disproportionately involved in crime and anti-social behaviour. That's not because they're gypsies in racial terms. It's because of the cultural baggage (so having a very low standard of education compared to a non-gypsy, encountering the various issues which come with not always being of fixed abode, these sort of factors leading to them being targeted by law enforcement etc) that comes with being gypsy.
i completely realise that you're always going to be on icy water when talking about ethnicities, i suppose i was just trying to figure out why we're not allowed to say 'this group of people are x' when they belong to an ethnicity, but we are allowed when they're just generally not nice. perhaps i'm trying to oversimplify the problem, but i do feel like there's an element of thought at play that says we cannot make broad statements about an ethnicity ever, but it's ok if it's not an ethnicity.
but then, maybe the cultural and historical weight attached to an ethnicity cannot be sensibly separated.
between the negative feelings many have towards the various gypsy communities (because they do not belong to a single ethnicity) and the prejudiced attitudes other ethnic groups have faced and continue to face. The gypsy 'problem' is that whole communities opt of society. The problems that immigrants in the USA and here have encountered are that the 'host' population won't let them opt in.
Plenty of the things said about gypsies in this thread have been incredibly unpleasant and crass and don't reflect on the posters all that well. I don't necessarily feel that it's fair or conducive to a decent discussion to get all DATS RACIST!!! though.
you guys need to go read Charles Taylor* or something.
*NOT the Liberian warlord.
How so? I don't really 'need' to go and read up on this subject either, it is one I'm familiar enough with. Saying things like that makes you less pleasant to engage with though.
I was suggesting it cause I can't be bothered getting into an argument about the politics of recognition but felt it was a point that had to be made.
If you think I'm unpleasant to engage with. yeah...
It's an unpleasant attitude to tell someone they 'need' to read up on a political/social theorist in order to better understand an issue when for all you know, they're au fait with them and don't really ascribe to their views.
To leave the discussion at 'gypsies opt of society' is obviously simplistic (and should not, on any level, be taken as a justification of how society treats them), but I remain very confident that it is in essence true.
Also meant to say that you wouldn't even have to be familiar with Taylor's perspective to have already consider it is a perspective.
~~~read him thanx~~~
Besides, I think I failed to get across the tone of that correctly - "you guys" and "or something" should have indicated it was not aimed at you specifically and that you guys don't *actually* have to read him/it. Just more lets think about it this way, yo.
and a Gypsy jumped out of the box of corflakes. Made a right mess he did.
Two gyspy boys also got me once to right kick me, and pinch me on post it notes which they were then going to put on the back of local school girls.
Generally my dealings with them has been positive. I like gypsys.
No one else seems to have noticed it.
about Gypsies. Especially considering that most people on here seem unable to differenciate between travellers and gypsies.
The build up of gypsymyth is astounding, to the point that blatantly made up stories were told to me as fact by peers when I was growing up, stuff about throwing poo at kids and things, things that just make no sense.
Christ. I expected better from you, mouusse.
Roma Gypsies and Irish Travellers are both classed as ethnic groups under EU law.
For the record, the majority of people at Dale Farm are Irish Travellers, though they really have no issue with being referred to as gypsies and do so themselves.
A gypsy once tried to sell me a unicycle. It was a normal bike with no front wheel.
sorry, that could have been funny story. I ruined it.
but missing the point you've made there.
Some stories posted in here about gypsies have shown an unpleasant side to them but no one has been hahahahaha lets kill them just cos they're different.
The point I was making there was just let's stop with this HAHA LET'S BE MEAN ABOUT GYPSIES crap
but I didn't say nor did I ever imply that anyone was laughing at anyone's death.
...that took AGES.
in a thread where people are being invited to make xenophobic remarks about cultural and ethnic groups that have been persecuted throughout history, someone might drop that in. oh no wait that's lame, sorry.
any arguments/busybodying that you make beyond this point are automatically disqualified, and will be taken down and used as evidence against you.
I didn't mention Hitler once. I wasn't backing up a "case." And bringing in someone's personal life like that, yeah just ew.
If you're going to poke a fellow DiSer, expect for it to be brought up on DiS. Cheers.
bring it up if you want. doesn't stop you guys being a bunch of sad bastards.
about gypsies because they were persecuted once in history?
What about ethnic groups that haven't been persecuted in history?
He (or she, I don't know) wont listen and can't be wrong, there's no point in even trying to discuss anything with them.
I'm just boooooorred at work.
;) <-- SAFETY WINk
But yeah, trying to get your point across to him after he's made his mind up what you meant is pointless and frustrating.
Its van_gok_wan i.e. ho_fo's other half. KEEP UP.
but I like hofo, he's one of my favourite disers.
Is the fact that a group has been systematically excluded and persecuted relevant to how we should talk about them?
Did I mention it to be a complete killjoy?
but if the OP subject said 'black people', 'jews', or 'people with disabilities' instead of 'gypsies', would you be as likely to enjoy the 'hilarious' stories that seem to repeatedly frame an entire group of people in a negative light due to the actions of specific members of that group?
No. But for some reason, gypsies are an okay target? Hmm
that expensive suit has gone to your head pal
I'm missing your point
and i'm agreeing with that but DD's argument seems to be based on what I said up there rather than the fact that we shouldn't be discriminating against a group of people for a few bad stories about them.
But the thing is that there are always gonna be negative PERSONAL stories about ANYBODY so blame the OP for starting the thread about the least favourite thing about them and should have maybe started one about funny stories involving gypsies?? like PO's story.
and so does she in fact ^^^
but i think the general discomfort with this entire thread makes it hard not to be a little depressed, especially several comments that are applying very broad brush strokes
I've not really made one argument in this thread.
We shouldn't be discriminating against an ethnic group full stop.
Maybe, if we're being hardline.
Was it worthy of comparison with gas chambers?
No. And in fact, that's a pretty crass thing to do.
Which meowington pointed out. And yet SHE'S the one that's apparently "missing the point".
so I sucked all the fun out of gypsy stories.
I've not missed anything here.
To be fair, I toned it down for this esteemed audience. when my mother tells it, the air is blue with words I'm not altogether comfortable with, but then, having seen your child snatched from almost before your eyes, human nature will make you seize upon the kind of insults which you wouldn't normally dream of exchanging.
I was responding to meowington, who did use the word.
Not really a helpful way to look at it but w/e.
but if you're over 17, I'd be very surprised.
cos people like me have been historically persecuted
fronted by female vocalist, guitarist and percussionist, HannaH, created their unique style when the two came together living in Portland, Oregon. HannaH and her sidekick, Bongo Bliss, the gypsy Rasta that plays bass, African drums and sings(often all at the same time), are spreading their modern-hippie-Rasta-folk all over the country.
Why did you make me watch it again?
You've not heard it...have you?
You might want to switch your computer off at this point...you can't do well out of any links anyone's about to send you.
Can I have a link?
Can you imagine having to have a conversation with him? Can you?
- Hi. I'm Bongo Bliss.
- I'm Bongo Bliss.
I've youtubed bongo bliss but I'm not sure I found what you lot are on about :(
puff puff give
I might as well say I haven’t really had many dealings with gypsies or travellers. I was about to say “maybe there were a few at my secondary school”, as I grew up in the countryside, but I don’t know if there would have been.
That said, there was this woman with a faintly stereotypical shawl and big earrings I used to see around town, especially if I was out early in the morning. She’d be sitting on a bench in the market place, brushing her hair and doing her makeup. I don’t think there was a gypsy camp in the area at the time – pretty sure she used to sleep in the park behind the church.
So she might have been a gypsy, and yeah, she was homeless – she was homeless – but she’s just like you and me. As she stands there singing for money. La da dee, la dee dow. La da dee, la dee dow. La da dee, la dee dow. La da dee, la dee dow. La da dee, la dee dow. La da dee, la dee dow. Ooh, ooh.
I started to smell a rat at 'doing her makeup'.
He was a total dick.
His dad however helped coach our football team. Stand up bloke.
The dichotomy of society's relationship with travellers and gypsies summed up in one father and son
I have two stories.
1) When I was a child growing up in Dublin, my Dad took me into town one Saturday. We parked our car and took a shortcut to Grafton Street past a tinkers plot. It was crazy in there. I saw dogs tied to trees with rope, caravans, shaven headed boys with rat-tails fighting with sticks. One lad was sat in a toy car and was being pushed around by another boy who was wearing a puffa jacket and wellies, but naked from the waist down. I was transfixed as the boy in the puffa jacked stopped suddenly, did a massive shit on the ground, then carried on pushing his mate round. Didn't wipe his arse or anything.
2) We were on a camping holiday somewhere on the west coast of Ireland, sitting by a canal. Our car was a few metres behind us. A van of tinkers stopped to exchange pleasantries and ask us about or trip. We didn't realise that they had obscured our view of our car with their van, and had dispatched someone to rob it blind. They took everything and we had to cut our holiday short and go back to Dublin.
I assumed your first story was the "least favourite" bit.
This Dale Farm place looks like a minor planning dispute rather than something which requires forced evictions of large numbers of people including sick elderly people and young kids. Would they go to such lengths if it turned out a developer of red-brick homes didn't have the correct planning permission? Would they cut off their power and water, then kick them onto the street and tear their houses down?
There's absolutely no reason why a company would build a housing development without making sure all the paperwork was in order. A better comparison would be the farmer who built his own castle:
Plus what if he had refused to leave?
I admit that your comment of "what if something that would never happen, HAPPENED?" is very valid. It is very daily mail-esque of me indeed.
They didn't build on the land without knowing they needed planning permission.
It’s a bit of a grey area when it comes to temporary homes and the like, which is one of the reasons why it took the council so long to obtain the eviction notice.
The council has been caught between two stools. Every council is legally required to provide suitable plots for traveller sites, but very few of those in the (Tory-run) shires do so. If it hadn’t been for the fact that this would set a precedent in terms of greenbelt development, I would wager that the council would have been happier to see the travellers living on this site, than having to provide them with another suitable plot.
The travellers took a risk in using the site as they have done, but at the same time the council took a risk in turning a blind eye for so long. In truth, both of them have lost, but perhaps in the ‘greater’ cause of protecting the planning laws in this country.
And very often the people in question refuse to leave, and very often police and bailiffs are necessary to evict them and demolish the property.
Do you not remember that (rather infamous) occasion when a Planning Enforcement Officer was shot dead on television by a farmer with a shotgun when his house had to be demolished?
About minor, petty and devious crimes attributed to travellers. It doesn't help their cause, but people are using this as a reason to evict Dale Farm. Which is bloody outrageous really.
people have helpfully explained the reasons for the eviction, and yet you still don’t seem to understand.
A weird mix of a jackanory thread and political threadsmash.
Let's never repeat it
The Virgin and the Gypsy? Good work...
...and seeing as we're swapping anecdotes, up until a few years ago I lived next to the oldest squats in London:
There was never any local pressure, apart from Lambeth Council themselves, to get rid of them - rather they were seen as an integral part of the area. Didn't stop those houses getting pulverised and turn into a wasteland sadly.
but i am genuinely upset to be accused of racism, internet forum or not. that was not my intention, i just started thinking about why we allow ourselves to have prejudices towards some but not others, and i probably did too much thinking out loud, and not enough picking my words carefully.
i understand how my words were construed as racism, but i really do not harbor any strong ill feeling to any one group of people, just certain behaviours that all people are capable of. i was interested as to when and why race comes into these arguments but i approached it badly.
stop thinking/talking about it on here and it will immediately be forgotten about, as all things are.
i mean, that's different
pretty much all of it, I've been told before I need to be more eloquent with what I'm saying as I often word it in ways that I didn't intend.
one of this forum's major functions is to give people an opportunity to prove to the rest of the users that they are the most liberal and open-minded people. it's like the paralympics. currently darwindude is winning.
Sorry if anyone's upset you in this thread. You do seem to have a better understanding than your input up there suggested. Don't sweat it.
I think you should all be ashamed, with your 'stories'.
I don't care what your protests are. It's pretty obvious that the reason you have all posted in this thread is your instinctive hatred against their genetic background.
People are masking their true racism under the charade of disliking traveller behaviour. What it boils down to is that each of you despise people purely because they're different to you. You can't abide that Irish-caucasian complexion, or their distinctive accent.
So you make up and exaggerate tales about them "stealing" things and "being violent" to justify your bigoted views.
I didn't realise this up until DarwinDude, hulkyhogan et al came in to tell us, but thanks to their wisdom I now know. Thanks guys.
I've been singing Gypsies Tramps and Thieves to myself all afternoon
a) settled communities tend to hate gypsies
b) gypsies tend to hate settled folk
because they know that their two society models are different and sometimes antagonistic, this is one reason why non gypsies may often find that gypsies seem horrible....it is the ways of life that are antagonistic.
Each community to a degree mistrusts the other in general and this each group (on the whole) will be more antagonistic towards people in the other group.
To many people in each group, their own way of life is the normal way of life.
Some people in each group can display tendancies of the other, without actually belonging to that other community.
e.g. some non gypsies travel or have no fixed abode for a variable period thru choice or otherwise.
The vice versa applies to gypsies too.
I am not going to get into the minefield debate about gypsies, romanies and irish travellers and non irish travellers, and tje differenmtiation because then ou should really start to talk about migrant east european workers etc and even slave traded people and those (who are often victims of the smugglers, who are smuggled into britain and made to work for the gangs that smugglled (to a greater or lesser degree)
There are many many groups of people who are disenfranchised from the normal 'citizen' and mistrust also abounds in droves over groups of people, who for example might have been decribed as say 'albanian'.
Having lived without a permanent address and moving around for periods of time, and not fitting into authorities processes, I am aware at how societiy and authority is geared to serve the 'norm'
However I was very mobile in many different definitions so I did not have to resort in 'taking back from society'
There were a few times though that one encounters the ridiculousness of the [provision for people outside 'the norm'
e.g. one night in the worst snowstorm for a decade, i needed somewhere indoors to shelter, so i went to a salvation army hall which should have been open ....."closed due to the bad weather"
so do not think, tyhat although councils and authorities say they make provision for all people, I think that you will find that they dont always (although they think they might be....often this is not deliberate and may only be because of simply not viewing it though others eyes.
I have no doubt that several travellers might see 'normals' as particularly niave marks, and I am sure that there is agression between the communities, with the genteel norms feeling threatened by the more agressive feral seeming gypsies, and that there is some annoyance by norms that 'they'v have had to forgo doing what they want so why shouldnt gypsies.
However do not doubt that there are NON gentle norm folk who DO take revenge, if they could on gypsies......also I once had a dodgey aquaintance who rejoiced in travellers being camped near, as this would allow him to go out on a spree of mischief, for which, he reckoned, the gypsies would get the blame......so at least some 'normals' use the presence of gypsies to increase their theiving.
when I slept out on the moors, i occasionally would sleep in my car (if it started bucketing down or got really frosty) and then people once again get all suspicious and mistrustful of your intentions. I remember the police once asking me why.
I gesticulated around and over his head at the starry sky "because of this.....its so beautiful" I thought he would get it (cos it WAS so so beautiful), but he obviously just thought I was a weirdo.....luckily I was a photo badged and phot licenced licenced and insured (checked by computer) and ided (licence check) (vehicle owner check etc...... weirdo who checked out ok according to all the records.........but i bet that if they didnt have stuff to be able to check out, it would have been entirely different.
If you sleep on a bench in the snow, commuters don't see you. There is a degree of armour to not being part of 'normal' because there is a slight fear that you do not live by the same rules so you might do ANYTHING......when in actual fact gypsies DO live by some rules, they are not entirely random.
But it is understandable why some people are unaware of the subconcious emotions that probably make their minds analyse them differently
I don't think races are like individual people. They are made up of individual people. Treat them as such.
You met a nasty person who happened to be a gypsy (not directed at you Bammers) boo hoo. Why not refer to it as meeting a twat called Fred who turned out to be a cock and leave race out of it entirely.
In this life you have 'Good guys' and 'Wanks' - the rest is for the census forms and fuck all else.
Does this mean you don't believe that there are 'bad' people?
Can we agree just to treat individuals as such and leave their labels out of it?
...that come together to make up a person?
Real life isn't an RPG.
reminds me of the fascinating article at the top of this thread: