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They don't make things easy for themselves do they
"The Vatican today made the "attempted ordination" of women one of the gravest crimes under church law, putting it in the same category as clerical sex abuse of minors, heresy and schism."
So it'll happen on an institutional basis for years, there'll be myriad cover-ups and when it all becomes public, the perpetrators will be sent off to small third-world communities while the incumbent pope tells the media he's being persecuted?
Can someone delete it please?
in history is SO reactive
It's like the Republican party being founded by Marx
In that they've realised people are starting to lose interest so they've resorted to saying and doing just about anything just so they don't get ignored.
they are also an affront to that which I worship.
Basically they should be gotten rid of, if they insist on this sort of nonsense then they deserve whatever they get..........If only young tearaways would start to do things like defrock priests and bishops......literally
I think that you will find that it was the RC church who seemed to happy to get in bed with the facists and anti semitism in eastern europe (because they both had enemies in soviet communism....so the RC church was really very lenient to facism and anti semitism and racial discrimination in eastern communist blok countries (because in many racial descrimintion and anti semitism is a traditional popular pastime).....this was of course in the past......but you can find (to this day) Rampant antisemitism and racism in Poland for example.
Also I just suggested that the vatican be got rid of....I think there are ample legal grounds, along the lines of the international illegality of the encouragement of hate crimes and using european anti discriminatory laws.......As for the defrocking, well thats a joke (crosses fingers behind back)
poland suffered pretty badly to the nazis it seems a little harsh to accuse poles of being rampant antisemites and racists
I used to work for this older polish woman for a few years, who, fair enough, hated the germans and hated the russians, but there was still room in her heart to hate the jews, and the gypsies.
Of course poland suffered badly under the nazis and also under the soviets, but although there was an attempt to eradicate the polish upper class and elites (cos both nazis and soviets wished to eradicate the idea of poles seeing themselves as a country)
Most of the people who dies in poland were jewish or gypsies or others.
Today in Poland there is a substantial amount of people who are young enough to not have been particularly oppressed who are openly racist, a freind of mine (black female) was openly spat at, and threatened and told to get out of the way (there were also many poles who were mortified and embarrised by the way their countrymen treated her.......OK so the UK has also been more hostile to ethnicity in the past, but in Poland it is particularly so.
was kind of made up, "that most of the jews in poland were not rounded up, that there are many of them still lurking" Im sorry but some think this.....of course canny people like stalin was clever, the soviet administrators of poland for instance would have a background where it could be suggested that they were partly jewish....this helps dilute the hatred from the poles towards the soviets (He did similar things with swapping the heads of the security services in azerbajahn and armenia (an armenian backgrounded head in azerbajahn and vice versa) this helps because some of the local anger and hatred is merely filed in their brains under existing hatreds and prejudices.......of course a large portion also hates the soviets and communism and russia and stalin as well....but the hatred is thus difused and not as focused as it could be....thus making it easier to be a dictator (divide and conquer......thats how to do it)
to suit stalin, just that the people have to suspect it or that there is a rumour about it.
I do not hate poland, in fact it seems that the UK was not as freindly as it should have been to the poles that came here during WWII, and the uk might have actually persuaded/forced some poles to move back to poland after WWII (even though it as now under stalin)
In fact the UK owes a great debt to the Poles 303 squadron (for example) was probably the most successful fighter squadron, and since the batle of britain was a very close run thing, it is almost certain that without the Polish pilots help, there might have been a different result (although the bombing raid on berlin actually changed hitlers mind and made him order london to be bombed instead, so that saved britain too)
anti semitism and racism is far greater there than in this country (or at least it can more often be displayed openly in poland than in UK
I was in Poland about 15 years ago staying in a youth hostel. As is common with youth hostels over there, a load of school kids were also staying there on some school trip or whatever. I was hanging out in the TV room with a few friends when a news item came on about neo-nazis protesting. Then all of a sudden all the kids stopped running around and making noise and starting doing hitler salutes towards the TV, seemingly in sympathy with the protesters. These kids were only about 10 years old.
As I don't speak Polish it's possible these kids were having a huge collective ironic joke, but as they were so young and doing it with such passion it really did appear like little Hitler's in the making.
at this years Cannes Festival. He is of Ghanaian descent. I couldn't really believe that it happened to be honest. It really makes you realise what a broad spectrum of attitudes exist in the world (for better or for worse.)
The same sense of humour as Theo, too, eh? Unbelievable.
If you are going to say something jokingly please make a prior arrangement via pm.......................(thats me making fun of theo.....sorry theo, dont ban me for this)
Pope Benedict XVI will visit the UK from 16 to 19 September at the invitation of Her Majesty The Queen. The visit is described as a Papal Visit with the status of a State Visit. The programme will include a number of pastoral events, which are the responsibility of the Catholic Church, as well as some significant official events, which will provide opportunities for issues of common interest to the UK Government and the Holy See to be discussed at the highest level.
The Holy See has a global reach and so is a valuable international partner for the UK Government. Our relationship with the Holy See enables us to address jointly a range of foreign policy and development issues. These include working towards delivery of the Millennium Development Goals, addressing the impacts of climate change, preventing and resolving conflict, and finding ways to encourage disarmament.
As with any bilateral diplomatic relationship, there are issues on which we disagree. The Holy See is clear on our positions on these issues. However, we believe that Pope Benedict’s visit will provide an opportunity to strengthen and build on our relationship with the Holy See in areas where we share interests and goals, and to discuss those issues on which our positions differ.
Since the visit has the status of a State Visit, and some parts of the programme are being organised by the British Government, a proportion of the costs of the Visit will fall to the Government. The costs can be divided into two categories: policing costs, which will be met by the State from existing policing budgets, and non-policing costs, which will be split between the Catholic Church and the Government. The total size of the costs at this stage is not confirmed but discussions are currently under way to decide the appropriate levels of contribution from the Government and the Catholic Bishops’ Conferences of England and Wales, and of Scotland. Other parts of the programme, such as the Masses and other pastoral events, are the responsibility of the Catholic Bishops’ Conferences. The direct costs of these events will therefore be borne by the Catholic Church.
that actually might acheive something......queen spurns pope for his rampant sexism and racism
FUCK OF YOU SENILE DINOSAUR.
"Nichols said the pope was "profoundly" looking forward to the trip between September 16 and 19."
Good old pope, having a good hard think about the visit.
I think I am a better person than the pope.
I think that jesus would be much more favourably inclined towards me than the pope.
Jesus would disprove of the pope very much
The pope is a total heritic cos he claims to relay the word of god.....whoever has been talking to him, aint good
you may also be a better person than the pope....and you...and you (and thats to martbowski!)
by which I mean I was born that way, indoctrinated at an RC school which was partly run by nuns, went to mass every day, and tehre are times in my life when I've actually found very real solace in a quiet trip to mass. I managed to reconcile the bits of doctrine I didn't like by thinking 'well, I can't agree with that, but it's better to be a cherry-picking member of teh faithful than not to be one at all'. A few years ago though, I walked out in disgust, in the middle of a homily on abortion AND contraception, because it was so inherently inconsistent, and i'm a woman of logic. It's just not possible to be Catholic and a person of logic. At local level, RC churches do some wonderful work in communities, and I really miss my church. However, they're led by an institution, and an utter cunt at the helm of that institution, which I've grown to despise. It makes me really completely sad to think about it actually, and so I'm going to go and drink wine now instead. Wine, not the blood of Jesus.
(Oh, and as a final thought before I get stuck into the booze- I am still a Catholic apparently, and the Church still recognises me as such until I formally write to the diocese, who then appeal to etheVatican on my behalf to have me taken off the Tim List.)
what is that?
I think you have it exactly right....its a shame cos some people (within abhorant institutions) can be good and do good work, often (in places where the culture allows it) church groups can do localised good.
but you are right and braver(?) (as an RC) to denounce him, its easy for me.
PS I have nothing against the teachings and example of jesus, he seems solid, I'm a pagan and i recognise him a prophet
If I didn't have my yoga, I would be temted to go back to be honest creaky. It's a lovely church, with lovely, kind people, who are like family to me (and my parents, for the record, are horrified, furious and devastated by my decision- my dad is one of those silly catholic knights, you see.) But, I can't support it, and it will ultimately infuriate me, so it's best to get out whilst I can. ANYWAY, back to wine drinking and yoga (not at the same time) :)
ructions and distress for people like you, rifts in families etc, sad to hear that.
If only there wasnt all this 'papal infallibility nonsense'
that would help enormously, i know it would upset traditionalists, but it would allow it to progress........i dont think that the RC church has learnt to distinguish that some of its rules are 'divine' and some are 'practical' to support the values of the society that it finds itself in.......and some of those societies values have progressed, but they cannot recognise that some of their rules are just to help promote scoiety stability and that these can and should change......but they have put their weight behind defending these outdated ideas.
(When I was born, I was put into a convent initially (my mum was unmarried and my gran a staunch catholic) then my mum couldnt live with that so she went into the convent (or nun ruled place...whatever it is) with me.
After a while my gran allowed her and me back (cos people hadnt stopped talking just cos we had left her house)
To this day, my reaction to nuns is very much like father jack's 'fear and horror'
(sorry, hope that wasn't too nun-like!)
"i dont think that the RC church has learnt to distinguish that some of its rules are 'divine' and some are 'practical' to support the values of the society that it finds itself in......."
this is the nub of the issue. It almost thinks of *itself* as the deity, and obstinately refuses to reform. It will end up with very few followers (in the developed nations, at least) because 'young people' tend to go mainly out that sense of familial duty we've talked about, and that tends to diminish as you get older.
I'm never going to leave the Tim List. I actually love being Catholic. I don't believe in God or Heaven or any afterlife, I don't like going to mass, I think religion is a big bunch of nonsense, I don't agree with any of the ideals and policies and shit... but I still like saying "Fuck off! I'm Catholic".
Also, I want to have a big, huge, massive incredibly Catholic funeral.
The position attracts cunts.
although the CofE heads tend to be quite watery and therefore not particularly offensive
even if i become a buddhist and shaved my head, if I die whilst any of my family are still alive, I'll get the full requiem bhoona, and there's fuck al I'll be ableto do without it. Because funerals are for the living, not the dead. That's exactly how it would be justified :D
(PS if you die before me, I'd be really happy to sing Pie Jesu at your funeral. I do it rather well)
I don't think i'll be pleading for it from beyond the grave...
I like to be prepared and in complete control of everything, so decided that if I died before my parents, I'd have the biggest, most outlandishly Catholic funeral ever. But I put so much effort and thought into it that I decided I might as well just have it anyway.
Everyone will have to be in black and be mournful and there will be black satin drapes and black roses everywhere. My coffin is going to be a huge ebony and gold number that'll take forty men to carry. A cardinal will say the mass (I'll have to make personal friends with a cardinal). Nick Cave will play piano and sing (it's the least he can do since I've decided I'll die by being shot by him). And yeah, you can sing Pie Jesu, with Nick Cave accompanying on the piano or organ or whatever. It'll be the death event of the world, even bigger than a pope's funeral.
I was raised a Catholic in Glasgow. It was, like many of my schoolfriends, a fairly liberal form of Catholicism though. My mum was sporadically pious and church-going; my dad didn't care and never went to Mass other than for Christmas and Easter. Much of the official Church doctrine was taken with a pinch of salt, similar to that batshit crazy uncle everyone has that says daft things. I was taught by Jesuits, and even they weren't particularly dogmatic.
Here, it seems to be almost a cultural rather than a truly religious thing. So, while I wouldn't consider myself a Catholic in the sense that I believe in transubstantiation and whatnot, I would still - weirdly - consider myself to have a Catholic identity, culturally. I had a conversation with a Jewish guy I know a few years ago where he said he didn't believe in God or the Torah etc, but that he was "inescapably culturally Jewish". I think it's the same for many Catholics, especially in places like Glasgow with sizeable populations of Catholic immigrant families (a few generations ago), where there is that sense of "otherness".
Anyway, yeah I agree...I'm never going to leave the Tim List either, and despite my multifarious misgivings, bemusements and distates with much of what the Church says, and my general agnosticism, I'll probably still get married in a Catholic church, have a Catholic funeral (Schubert's Ave Maria will be played/sung by a choir) and all that good jazz.
Catholic guilt, innit.
if the Pope were a REAL man of God, he'd have the ladypriests burnt at the stake as witches, or stoned, or have a religious edict sent out inviting mentals everywhere to take pot shots at the them, Khomeini-style.
you should be able to reasonably expect of a 2000 year old religious institution, it's having it's finger on the pulse of modernity
and I think my point is a fair one. I'm not saying the church is right (at all), I'm simply saying that it's hardly surprising that one of the oldest and most intensely traditional institutions in the world fails to change one of its core tenets to fit with relatively new social norms. Relative, that is, to the 2000 year life span of the Church - don't forget that for most of its history the church was acting no differently from wider society in giving women negligible power and influence.
It's also worth pointing at that at the present moment that Church hierarchy couldn't introduce the ordination of women even if it wanted to, without risking a major rupture - they are still struggling to deal with the consequences of the changes made at Vatican II, which are really only minor liturgical tweaks in comparison to the ordination of women. You and I may not care about whether the Church remains intact, but this fear is probably the most important factor in understanding why the Church behaves the way it does.
You may also want to at least consider the idea that the church doesn't want to ordain women for sincerely held doctrinal reasons, and not just because they are women-hating monsters. Most of the open minded folk on DiS seem prepared to extend the benefit of the doubt in this regard to other religions, so why not to Catholicism?
* yes however our society has moved on and it hasnt.......
*so whAT if you are right and it is to be expected that it should be like it is cos it is 2000 years old, if it cant keep up then it would be good if it died out (If it cant adapt)
*by issuing edicts like this it attracts attention and our ire
*people here are dead against other religeons if they promote sexism
*other cultures have many different things, perhaps people on here dont always criticise these religeons as much because they do not understand the context in which these religeons are based and therefor feel as if they cannot understand and criticise it precisely enough - with RC we are closer to the source and are more familiar with the societies
*If you must know locally I am rather incensed with 'the breathren' a christiany sect, we can only id them cos all their women have long hair and have a small headscarf....this i think is appalling and should be prosecuted....why? cos they send their boys to school, but not their girls, i think this is appalling and a blatent piece of sexism, im amazed they arnt prosecuted....Im sure other disers feel similarly
*The Iliad and the odyssy still speak to me
*jesus would not like what they claim in his name
*sexism and racism makes baby jesus cry
*hypocrasy by priests make him cry too
where they issue edicts from, these edicts often affect many(not all) but many followers and to a degree influence their ideas and the way they treat others.
*some edicts reinforce and might prop up places where there may be concepts of women being less, which is something that we should not encourage.......and yet you are (although i bet you dont intend it) to a degree defending this, you'd be better placed putting your efforts at fairness elsewhere
robluvsnic | 15 Jul '10, 15:59 | ^ This | Reply