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The guy's clearly not representative.
Anyway, I always thought Rugby was more of a middle and upper-class sport and football was the 'working class' one. Or is that just Rugby Union?
Rugby Union is middle/upper class, played in public schools and amongst posher players.
Rugby League is basically restricted to certain fairly rough, provincial Northern towns.
which apparently i did, but I'll let bamnan take the credit on this one.
So, the class angle is a red herring and a patronising one to boot.
The first couple of responses to that post are ridiculous too.
How utterly preposterous.
and Aud Wiedersehen pet, I'd like to make it clear that the working classes are nothing but amiable towards all peoples.
They also seem to be able to fall over with precise comedy timing, which must make getting to work in the mornings through crowds really difficult in poor areas.
I'm a bit dead to people being bigoted on the internet, what with Theo being a mod here.
but ever-diminishing, non?
(*I acknowledge that at least 1 ^this-er is infinitely more qualified to call the shots on this one, so I'll defer to them on this judgement over my personal experience.)
Well posh. Real people like me have to rent them from Hambelows.
Focus on the farthest point you can see. That's roughly how far you missed that joke.
(And for the record you're also wrong with your bizarre working class trolling bollocks. :D)
Don't answer that Theo! He's luring you in! He misses Bamos and needs a new sparring nemesis :-D
I'll be at the back smashing windows and getting a new LCD TV.
Does it even make sense?
of that person's place in the social strata.
Some people are just thick.
and possibly good at typing.
the easier it is for newcomers to the language to understand it - children and foreigners and so on. It benefits more people across the board for these disciplines to be strong, therefore, as a general abandonment of adhering to grammatical rules would be utterly chaotic for those in their formative years trying to understand a language already fraught with inconsistencies.
Also STOP MAKING FACTS UP ABOUT HISTORY. You're going to need to give me a citation for "spelling and grammar are too but even more so" if you even THINK about letting that fly.
Spelling and grammar are pretty massively important, particularly to the working classes. They're completely different from manners.
I bottled it halfway through that post.
That's because language is massively unwieldy and barely fit for purpose. Bad spelling and grammar reduce the usefullness (sp?) of language further, which in turn makes it harder, sometimes maybe impossible, to express ideas/feelings/etc. Considering how retarded most of your arguments come across, maybe it's something you should look into...
at the learning stages, might not equate it with what you think it clearly means.
you're holding back those with a poorer grasp of language than yourself.
Feel good, does it?
taught to read. The church didn't want the working classes to learn, because then they'd be susceptible to satirist and rebellious literature that would pull them away from the church.
They didn't want the help getting smarter, basically.
Right from the beginning then, it's been NOT having access to language that has been the best way of keeping the masses down, and provided frustration and restriction of the poor.
The more that everyone aspires to read and write, the better chance the world has of communicating its points to one another, and all sides will be better represented.
I swear to god that if you argue with me on this I'll have to get out all my books on the history of publishing and destroy you.
The whole point of writing is that it can create a bridge between two people, say, who can't understand each others' accents. In the case of the English language's importing of thousands of latin words into a barbaric language and all translatory work since, it has helped millions of people connect when spoken language affected by dialect would provide a barrier. It's one of the reasons it's so important.
Conventional spelling and grammar allow people to learn to read and write, so it IS the same thing.
and all the books and papers written had 'free' spelling and grammar, you're hindering the learning of the young?
I feel like we're heading for the same point of reasoning now: this is good.
it should have been a full stop.
but only applies to people who already know the language well.
I'm with you on petty corrections - they're not needed. BUT I also believe in gently correcting people in a hope to better their use of language.
Moderate Bamnan is sensible Bamnan.
No one ever took the piss out of someone's accent.
if there aren't words to articulate your discontent then you can't express it to others, and in effect it doesn't exist. The written/printed word is the most powerful and efficient way of exchanging ideas, grammar and spelling support that.
Can't believe I'm agreeing with a fucking Tory about this though.
SAD FACE WITH A TEAR.
you don't get to choose your allies.
I live on the border, you know, and I'm more liberal than you might expect.
I *did* vote blue though, for as far as that makes me tory.
But it makes you less liberal than I thought.
But there's the argument of how negative a thing that always is.
- although I won't be so silly as to pretend the only one - is that in the Rom, the BNP are very, very strong, and as labour and libs have literally no chance here, a vote for the cons ensured that those fuckers would be demolished)
i have time for anyone who is able to give cogent reasoning for their choices, as opposed to CG-style dead-end and circular nonsense, so no blue-centric xylo 'grudges' are held in this quarter.
when we send the poor to camps, I will ensure that your bucket is larger than most.
So I can show solidarity with my brothers.
In reality you'll have had me shot for being a pacifist/deserter/general wrong 'un/dissenter first.
glasses are too smart, but thanks to a predecessor, I have learned that people who are smart and wear glasses stop wearing glasses to avoid being shot.
Seeing as you're not wearing glasses, you're obviously wise to it yourself.
I'd calmly take my contact lenses out, clean them, and put them back in for MAXIMUM CONFUSION.
and as far as the manners & language link/non-link goes - some of the most gloriously bad mannered people were able to be so enjoyably rude precisely BECAUSE of their grasp of language.
better that some of the tories believe in educating everyone to a levelling standard, rather than letting the masses flag behind eh?
My slaves are reading Tacitus, for example.
Osbourne is a fool, and in my opinion the biggest reason NOT to vote tory. I was wishing (pathetically) for Cable as chancellor.
By the way, go shower you fucking hippy.
but NNNNNNNNNNNNNNGHHHHHHHHH if you wanted Cable you should have voted Lib Dem. This government was always going to be all about the economy, and Osborne is a solid-gold bellfruit. People like you make me SICK.
Voting lib dem here - considering PR isn't going on - wouldn't have done sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeit. And I didn't want labour or BNP in.
you, and everyone in your position, should have 'done as the noble Romans do' innit.
he does not mind the working class to be around him, he let me and John Traynor stay at his, although i suppose we are educated working class.
He was very nice and i think he was totally sincere
I have my own immediate-family ties to the working class - not that I need to justify myself in the first place mind - and I'm not shutting your point out based on anything to do with formal education. You've magic'd that out of the air.
I'm shutting it out because suddenly attacking Theo when he made a pun is ludicrous, short-sighted and OTT
people with incredibly poor grammar and spelling.
I've got him on the couch. We're exploring the roots of his self-hatred here.
I just assume they're rubbish. It makes me feel better about the whole thing.
Your analogy isn't actually one.
Which bit of offence is analagous to the gay/faggot thing?
applying anti-intellectualism in this context: doesn't really coerrelate with what i remember of your explanation of it the other day.
But it may go some way to explaining why you might think that's what I was saying.
how you can 'take' anti-intellectualism as being anything other than negative. surely it's an essentially hostile or at least contrary position?
"Honestly, I can't remember that." he went into it at to some detail sometime within the last fortnight (or even week).
The stance was made during a discussion about philosopy and semantics (with Zapsta?).
That might clarify things, but I can't be arsed to dig it out.
the working classes don't aspire to writing things down correctly?
Wait, are you defending or belittling them? I can't actually tell.
in fact, for a living I correct things often without comment, and writers who would otherwise feel clumsy with their words get to see their opinions in a well-written light, and it makes them happy.
Ninety-nine per cent of the battles you fight on here are on behalf of people you imagine to exist but have absolutely no reason to.
which generally falls to grammar because spellcheck has helped people a lot these days, it's to ensure that the reader can actually understand what they're trying to say. Backwards and disjointed sentences can be hard to gain insight from, or downright impossible to understand, and so sometimes I have to talk to the writer to get the point out of them and help that form that into something they're happy with, which everyone will be able to enjoy.
As I do that, the writers learn a greater standard of grammar, don't make the same mistakes twice (mainly), and feel better for being able to communicate with everyone without the need for their hands being held.
YOU ARE THINKING ABOUT THIS WITHOUT THINKING ABOUT THIS.
FUCKING HELL XYLO. ARE YOU GAY OR WORKING CLASS OR SOMETHING?
Or is this a test?
If it is, did I pass?
It's because I'm non-liberal. It's a disease.
We're working on a vaccination so that future generations won't have to suffer.
You're a lost cause though. The best we can hope for is a minimum of pain.
can administer genocide to the opposition first.
I say eugenics.
Let's call the whole thing off*.
(*i.e. Shall we stop now that it's more sinister than funny?)
BUT I'm almost sure we've reached the crux of why it's not cool to abandon rules just because you've reached the point where *you* can understand deviations. Others might not have, and that's the danger.
Because everyone makes typos, and it's funny to point out those typos to people *cough* DanielKelly *cough* who supposedly make a living out of correcting spelling and grammar?
Please tell me you understand at least a tiny little something in this big old crazy world.
I'm much, much stupider on the internet
Theo is both Mod and Forum ProofReader, but there isn't much proof in poor=illiterate hypothesis.
There may be a relationship between people from lower income families having fewer opportunities for having a 'decent' education.
Or people from lowere income families finding themselves in a culture where they may feel that going to school and learning how to read is a waste of time as they'll never get a good job anyway (this is what my youngest brother and his mates thought when they were at school, they all regret it now though).
But... some folk are lazy, others are just thick, some are dyslexic, others just don't care about letter and punctuation placement especially on a net forum.
Typos happen and there's no edit function and it's sometimes quite funny.
So, there you go.
I'm in mobile view so I guess I can't see the threadsmash but it tells me you replied to me. I definitely have never ever used the phrase, "speaking as a working class person," because I went to university.
My dad's family definitely are middle-class and my mum's are working class. Well as best as I can tell. It's not something I spend a great deal of time thinking about.
understand grammar, sybntax etc (whether tyhrough formal educatoin, parental help or sdelf-help) have a *responsibility* to uphold this and help educate others. If we let it all sink to the lowest common denominator, then we're all fucked, LoLthxbyex
and don't share.
I suppose we've gotta cut that deficit somehow.
And are mostly picked up on by their author.
If not, it's normally done by someone else in clear jest.
I rarely see actual spelling/grammar nazi-ism on here that aims to belittle the authour of it.
Ah. I see.
Authour: An author called who is a particular authority in his or her field. Esp. ones called Arthur.
See? - http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Authour
Cuh! Did you not even know that?
he apparently needs the help.
Grately? NO, *definitely* (not definately) GREATLY.
Nah. Nate-ly Dogg likes great-ed cheese.
they'll do a better job than our home grown poor folk.
I hope they're not being shoved out to make way for Widnes/Toulouse et al though. Idiotic fans or not, Cas should be a top flight club.
"Freedom of expression" as "a basic human right" does not include shouting FIRE! in a packed theatre.
Sadly, it does allow you to "spEak You're bRanes" on the BBC.
I always thought Rugby was intrinsically homoerotic, so having an openly gay rugby player isn't /much/ of a surprise.
It might give the other players room for pause when he's got his head tucked tween their thighs in a scrum sitaution though. >)
They see a scrum of burly men and they can't help but get RIGHT IN THERE. They love it.
Sorry Bamnan old chap- sometimes the constant non-sequitur of your reasoning is amusing, but the rest of time, it's just baffling.
so that we don't get clever enough to be able to effectively organise ourselves and rise up against our 'betters'/oppressors and also so we always know our place.
"KNOW YOUR PLACE POORS, KNOW IT!"
To a point, childern have to be spoonfed basic nkowledge and skills. Then, when they have the ability to be more involved in their own learning, you focus on giving them the skills, attitude and confidence to teach themselves. Of course, as is evident, attitude is the hardest one to develop. Without the desire to learn of the part of the pupil, it's very hard to teach.
I think your gripe is with what you perceive to be pedantry, and whilst I embtrace it joyously like a FUN SPOT, I can see that it is often OTT and annoying. However, that's not to say that you shouldn't correct people where they are making shocking grammarfails. otherwise, we are saying that we don't care aboout the very basic correctness of our language, and that's just wrong. FACT.
Let's not talk about fun spots please, especially not after yesterday.
SEAN, CAN WE HAVE AN EDIT FUNCTION PLEASE, NOW THAT THE SITE IS ALL SHINY AND WONDERFUL AGAIN?
look: no. We've covered this. You're viewing it from the point of comprehension that you've already managed to reach, so to you it matters less, but beginners need the stability of everyone else being 'proper' and correct.
I really thought you'd grasped it, but actually i forget that you're very often difficult for the hell of it.
YOU DEFEND PEOPLE WHO DON'T EXIST FROM PEOPLE DON'T EXIST.
Yeah, completely fucktarded cunts. nothing to do with spelling or grammar mate, it just gives us something tangible to criticise when chortling at their cuntishness.
So, logically, non-sequiturs means ehm something which isn't garden shears?
Hope that helps.
That's what this thread is actually about.
to make the law more accessible to laymen. However, sometimes, there is a word which so perfectly respresents what you mean, that you cannot reduce it to its simpler level. Also, where does your siggestoin end? The English language is an incredible language- why should we only use a fraction of it? I agree, that on things ilke official forms etc, and in relatoin to essential information, things should be put in as plain english as possible. However, in journalism and other forms of creative or informed writing, the writer should be able to choose what words fit best. See my point above about *responsibility* to keep the language alive and correct.
didn't know you knew gaelic.
HOW VERY DARE YOU!
Handbags, 10 paces.
Sometimes, when hope dies in front of you, you can't look away.
You know for a fact that plenty of people want to write informative pieces for the general public motivated by enjoyment alone.
How can you know that they aren't doing it to educating other people?
If I may be so bold as to make that clarification.
I'll take that as a "no" and an "I can't".
that people take every year.
The selfish cunts.
This is a multiple-jealousies issue.
it's not their way. That's why we have a curriculum created by a panel of people.
is another way of saying you're wrong"
the intellect of one.
but philosophers and later 'real' scientists banded together precisely to stop one view fucking everything up, hence the royal society and the entire scientific peer review process in fact.
But only ones from this series.
all the best
the majority of your points grind down to you believing yourself to be better than others based on your choices you're making.
This self-loathing thing you love to use as a crutch is a charade: you're immensely in love with your world view
I think that is because what is taught has not been properly reviewed, the mantra of just 'give a lot of education' has prevented the analysis of why or what it is for
that you're in some way in a position to comment other than as an armchair commentator?
I would be really happy if this was the case!
where the principle behind the writing is more important than the remuneration and the writer in question could quite easily earn more by doing something else.
No perhaps-ing about it.
i've identified a stone-cold, cast-iron, undisputable fact.
Any discussion claiming otherwise will almost certainly be some variant of you indulging in the intellectualism you profess to dislike, or will just be plain trolling.
Because they told me.
Any other questions?
I'll take that as a "no".
Definitely a "no".
I appreciate the confirmation.
I answered your question with a factual response based on a reliable first hand source.
And when I asked you the same question, you replied with an oblique assertion that you're in posession of an uterly unique worldview, the likes of which the world has been unfortunate enough to have never seen before.
and rather you just sit making things up in some weird bitter solipsism, a bit like if David Icke had a Fritzl-Child?
you're just not inclined to read anyone else's opinion, regardless whether it proves, or even professes to prove something, even if it's just an interesting take on a subject.
You're an unfortunate combination of being a bit too dim, egotistical and lazy for that, yet still expect to be taken seriously?
Just checking my facts.
Regardless of class
The fine does show something about the authorities in both union and league though - they aren't afraid of throwing the book at both players, coaches and fans. Football could learn something
Didn't the FA have to shelve an anti-homophobia campaign because none of the players wanted to be involved?
It was so unintentionally hilarious, because he's such a joyous, funny, upbeat character with a Welsh accent it just really didn't fit tonally
"Can you belieeeeeeve, some people think THE E-CON-O-ME is to blame for a rise in GAY BASHING!"
If you're a gay man, and you are in a shower/bath/changing room with loads of buff, naked men, would you get a uncontrollable boner?
Because I know if I was in changing room full of hot, naked ladies, I would be pretty turned on.
Thanks for reading.
But it's a great question and one that has helped move the debate on leaps and bounds.
BACKS AGAINST THE WALL LADS!!!!!!!!!
My LAD was DiSappointingly shy on that occasion and went away to hide.
Most people use duvets* these days so making the bed is a doddle. Just pull the quilt over! Of course it's a good idea to let your bed air through the day so I leave ours folded about half way down.
*remember when we called them "Continental Quilts"?
I was beginning to think I was on my own there.
you leak half a pint of sweat* every night. I probably leak more being a generally sweaty person.
*made up/half remembered statistic.
it sounds a bit Abigails Party doesn't it.
Get out. I'm not being accussed of doing something that makes me older than Theo.
the referring to them as "Continental Quilts"
But the old "ball and chain" ey? ey?
I'm working class.
And cry shenanigans on your working class claims.
in response to DanielKelly. FFS!
My Dad was a bus driver. FACT.
it was for a bet
*Unless it's on horseracing
When he came back he told us all he'd been on the "peasant wagon".
thread has ended.
he best not have worms.
BRITISH GARDEN BIRDS.
anyone disagree with me?
previous postings notwithstanding to my current position.
<whispers>I'd start that toast thread if you wanted an arguement or slag off conor oberst. You need to stir up some Cuntreversey and unless you want to wade in up there ^... this thread isn't going to give you waht you want. </whispers>
in b4 theo
All of you, outside now!
This class war's not going to start itself and I want a new telly.
In fact I went in up there an posted that you were nice to me an John Traynor and that you were sincere ( Im working class and you seemed fine with me)
In fact theo....I really like you
however I really like bamnan too.
I see myself as the link between the working class and the middle class, I love em both, I can bring the world together....through me.
Im a bit like jesus really
anyone who disagrees is just ignorant.....I am the world
GTFO with your sandals and get a haircut.
I am scum
...is the opposite true?
however it is a flawed premise and one musnt get carried away by the amusing pic......e.g. flowers are amongst the prettiest, yet are far from useless
Can flowers clothe a starving child?
Can flowers help build a better soldier?
Can they help you when no one else can?
Can you use them to bypass an electronic security system in a secret military base and aid your escape from the same when your accomplice inevitably sets off the alarms just as you are downloading top secret files?
Can you use them to deflect a laser beam onto it's own control system, thereby shorting it out just before it starts to burn into the crotch of your immaculately tailored trousers?
Can they stop a charging bull?
of their plant, the fibres of which can be wove into clothes......or think of the buffalo grazing on grasses and sweet meadow flowers, their hides have clothes hungry native american children
Yes they can help build a better soldier - I could brew a 'beserkers' potion.
Yes they can help when no-one else can - they 'talk' to me when there are no humans around and they 'talk' differently from humans so they reach other parts of me.....
they probably cant help with the electronic security system or the laser beam
But they could stop a charging bull, If I have tipped my arro/spear with enough wolfsbane/monkshood
How many times people???
You're spending your time on an indie music website posting stuff about whether or not you can keep apples in the fridge and, if you do, which Bright Eyes songs to listen to whilst you eat them.
I don't care if you were brought up in a shoe-box on a council estate and your Dad has a British Bulldog tatoo all over his back - you are on here you're middle class, get used to it.
I shop at Lidl's and everything...
And you don't keep apples in the fridge. That's insanity.
best not to start said post with 'pffft'.
oh and don't take umbrage either, just threaten to shiv me.
MASSIVE SAFETY WINK OK? LET'S NO LOSE OUR HEADS PEOPLE.
Im in a different catagory.
Like bamnan, I am a lone wolf.
In other times the 'classes' would burn us (oh and pocketmouse as well)
Still have the roots of a poverty stricken upbringing during the miners' strikes and poll tax, but currently in a v v nice flat with a comfortable job 'in the city' helping maintain a collapsing financial system which is biased against the class I was spawned from, and able to fulfill all but the costliest of whims.
I'd be conflicted if I wasnt able to buy myself nice things and could be bothered.
Comfort breeds complacency.
luckily for me I have eshewed physical comforts and have never sought any material or social advancement
I have not played on it (until I got red dead redemption for fathers day, that is actually a fantastic game.......but i didnt ask for that, in fact when asked I wracked my brains for something that I would like and could only come up with 'a nice knife'
Anyway like I say, it is true, I do not seek any material or social advancement, which makes it quite difficult to fit in sometimes, especially at work in 'social' situations where you have to endure some awful people waxing lyrical about their latest 'car' and how great 'such and such a model is' when all i feel like replying is 'I despise that which you aspire to, I despise your motivations and aspirations'
i did not want it, in fact i only really played on it when they gave me (unsolicited) red dead redemption (I had wracked my brains when asked what i wanted for fathers day but the best i could come up with was, 'a nice knife' I can easily live without games systems
Standing there in your bubble of zen detachment and contentment, making all us drones question our motivations for continuing our existence in a system which neither truly rewards positive acts nor really holds any answers for why we are here.
I try to preach to others, but my techniques is horrible and fails miserably, i am damned to playing out Cassandra's role.
Also my family likes 'stuff' (not too much, but more than me)
cmon.....inject it with a poison
Bamnan might reply to it
I should have known Bamnan was involved when I saw the reply count.
I love that almost all the 300+ replies have fuck all to do with either rugby or homophobia.
I was expecting some sort of Granada rentals pun next...
you expect everyone else to join in with the middle class joke about how we all now own tellys and can laugh at the idea of renting them, unlike poor bamnan.....and me when im on a moor......
Or have I got the wrong end of the stick here ;)
PS my mum was sooooo aspiring she didnt put on 'ITV' we might have been living in working accomodation but it was always on 'the beeb'
I was barely allowed to watch citv as a kid, maybe, or maybe that was just me realising at the age of 5 that 99% of itv is shit. Not working class, just shit.
Might as well confess that "Hambelows" and "Piggio Rentals" have actually been making me cackle like a loon all day. Good work, you two.
he's from bridgend in south wales FFS, where rugby union is a very much a working class game. never had many problems in wales. neither does the referee nigel owens.
has nothing to do with class.
i go to france for five days and the whole place turns a mucker