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River Thames removed from tube map - political correctioness gone mad.

marckee [Edit] [Delete] 87 replies 14:24, 17 September '09

Am I the only person that isn't apoplectic over this?

The removal of the zones, yes, I can understand. However, weren’t lots of people criticising the map the other year because it had become too cluttered?

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  • The river was on the map in the first place?

    I had no idea it was there, let alone that they've moved it. I'm not sure that I care.

    bamos | 17 Sep '09, 14:27 | X
    • Anything else tube related you're unsure about?

      gowman @bamos | 17 Sep '09, 14:29 | X
      • Why to get from Euston to King's Cross you have to go Northbound on the Victoria line, but southbound on the Northern line.

        CRAZY SCENES!

        Also, why York Road station doesn't exist anymore. Cally Road to King's Cross without a break takes ages.

        bamos @gowman | 17 Sep '09, 14:34 | X
        • I always call the lines by the colours, not the names.

          Therefore I never know which line people are talking about in relation to everyone else.

          gowman @bamos | 17 Sep '09, 14:39 | X
          • "the blue line"

            "errr....."

            brusma @gowman | 17 Sep '09, 14:41 | X
            • that was the River Thames

              numbnuts

              gowman @brusma | 17 Sep '09, 14:44 | X
        • No one was using the York Road station.

          It was in an industrial area with no houses or offices.

          marckee @bamos | 17 Sep '09, 14:40 | X
          • Well there needs to be some sort of stop-off point between the two.

            Long gaps between stations when you're underground un-nerve me. I keep imagining the driver has taken a secret wrong turning and we're eventually going to surface in Hull or something.

            bamos @marckee | 17 Sep '09, 14:43 | X
            • ...

              Don't say shit like that.

              Stealthy @bamos | 17 Sep '09, 14:44 | X
              roastthemonaspit this'd this
              • I knew I wasn't alone.

                King's Cross to H&I makes me feel like that as well. Distances to make you think you're going to end up as Corpse on Tube #132 in a new slasher movie.

                bamos @Stealthy | 17 Sep '09, 14:51 | X
                • ...

                  The problem with KX to H&I is that it takes so bloody long, I invariably forget where I am, and am disappointed when half an hour later I'm *only* at King's Cross - when I feel I deserve to be at Oxford Circus at least.

                  Stealthy @bamos | 17 Sep '09, 14:55 | X
                  golden_blue this'd this
                  • I like those long patches of tunnel. You can really get into your book.

                    TheoGB @Stealthy | 17 Sep '09, 14:57 | X
                    • see also: the Waterloo & City line

                      brusma @TheoGB | 17 Sep '09, 14:59 | X
                      • ...

                        The Worthless Piece of Crap line? Did you know on weekends it shuts at 6? I fucking didn't.

                        Stealthy @brusma | 17 Sep '09, 15:04 | X
                        • It only shuts at 6 on a Saturday. It's not open at all on a Sunday.

                          Plus, it shuts at 9.48pm during the week too.

                          marckee @Stealthy | 17 Sep '09, 15:15 | X
                        • i went on it yesterday

                          it felt goooooood

                          brusma @Stealthy | 17 Sep '09, 15:32 | X
                  • I like the idea of deserving to end up somewhere.

                    I've spent an hour on the shitting central line, and I'm in Acton. I deserve to be inside Gemma Arterton AT THE VERY LEAST.

                    bamos @Stealthy | 17 Sep '09, 15:04 | X
                    • ...

                      What zone is Gemma Arterton's vag in?

                      Stealthy @bamos | 17 Sep '09, 15:08 | X
                      • If that's you crossing it in for me to overhead kick it in to the roof of the net, consider it done.

                        The erogenous zone?

                        bamos @Stealthy | 17 Sep '09, 15:10 | X
                        • something about being close to mudchute

                          Jack_il_biscotto @bamos | 17 Sep '09, 15:13 | X
            • ...

              I start to sweat and worry if im ever going to see natural light again.

              Splenic_Artery @bamos | 17 Sep '09, 14:53 | X
            • there was a study into reopening York Road/Way

              due to the redevelopment of the railway lands but apparently it isn't likely.

              just for you, Bamos, here's a mockup of what the tube map might look like if it were open: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/20/York_Road_Map_Mockup.png

              guntrip @bamos | 17 Sep '09, 15:08 | X
              • ...

                That's fucking monstrous. I hope this never happens.

                Stealthy @guntrip | 17 Sep '09, 15:20 | X
            • manor house to turnpike lane

              what the actual fuck? you could walk it quicker.

              tv_party @bamos | 19 Sep '09, 01:02 | X
    • It's been on there for most of the decade

      None of it really bothers me, but then I don't actually use the map very often. Zones probably shouldn't have gone though.

      colinzealuk @bamos | 17 Sep '09, 14:29 | X
    • Me neither, but apparently some people use it to orientate themselves.

      I don't understand either.

      marckee @bamos | 17 Sep '09, 14:30 | X
  • Not bothered about removing the river

    but removing the zone lines is just stupid

    Jack_il_biscotto | 17 Sep '09, 14:28 | X
    joeymahone, spiritofjazz, citizenmeh, and brusma this'd this
    • Agreed

      Unless they're e getting rid of zonal fares, the zones need to be there

      roastthemonaspit @Jack_il_biscotto | 17 Sep '09, 14:35 | X
      • The zone lines have only ever been on some maps, haven't they?

        TheoGB @roastthemonaspit | 17 Sep '09, 14:43 | X
        • They were always on the little paper ones that were available in stations.

          But yeah, there are several different types of map that were displayed in Quad Royal frames, from the basic tube lines, to ones showing the zones, up to ones showing zones and connections.

          marckee @TheoGB | 17 Sep '09, 14:58 | X
  • I can understand some bits are clearer. But no Thames? Isn’t that a fairly basic navigation aid?

    roastthemonaspit | 17 Sep '09, 14:28 | X
    • Not when you're in a tube train, it isn't.

      marckee @roastthemonaspit | 17 Sep '09, 14:33 | X
  • people are actually angry about this?

    WHY?

    brusma | 17 Sep '09, 14:29 | X
  • ...

    What?! That thick blue line was often the only warning that we'd slipped from the safe, civilised environs of North London, into the anarchic squalor of the South.

    How will we know now?

    Stealthy | 17 Sep '09, 14:29 | X
    • Don't go south of the Circle line.

      colinzealuk @Stealthy | 17 Sep '09, 14:30 | X
    • "safe, civilised environs"

      you live in leyton

      brusma @Stealthy | 17 Sep '09, 14:30 | X
      • ...

        YOU LIVE IN LEYTON VILLAGE, YOU GAY.

        Stealthy @brusma | 17 Sep '09, 14:34 | X
  • The map is here

    if anyone cares

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/darrenlewis/3910094475/

    roastthemonaspit | 17 Sep '09, 14:30 | X
    • Thread mash already?

      Is that a record?

      roastthemonaspit @roastthemonaspit | 17 Sep '09, 14:30 | X
  • I'm more pissed off about the fact they're removed the zones.

    That does make things a bit confusing.

    theguywithnousername | 17 Sep '09, 14:37 | X
    • its not exactly political correctness gone mad is it?

      watch Stewart Lee - 41st Best Stand Up ever for more on this..

      Hayward @theguywithnousername | 17 Sep '09, 14:51 | X
      • SUBTLE JAGGING: AN ARTFORM is available in the foyer on the way out.

        bamos @Hayward | 17 Sep '09, 14:54 | X
        • :D

          roastthemonaspit @bamos | 17 Sep '09, 14:55 | X
      • ...

        You win the prize, kid.

        Stealthy @Hayward | 17 Sep '09, 14:56 | X
  • So

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8258821.stm

    I've got to be honest, this is pretty messy with the zone colourations: http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/standard-tube-map.pdf

    Compared to the new one:
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/16_09_09_tube_map2.pdf

    TheoGB | 17 Sep '09, 14:47 | X
    • One thing I don't get:

      Why is it just showing the old East London Line as 'under construction'? Why not show the whole new section too, since all of that will be coming online at the same time, surely?

      TheoGB @TheoGB | 17 Sep '09, 14:48 | X
      • It's probably only on there at all because they've removed the buses/old line

        If you scan around, most of the other "under construction" stuff that used to be on it has disappeared to help with the clean up. Stratford International on the DLR for example. Also one less thing to think about redrawing too.

        colinzealuk @TheoGB | 17 Sep '09, 14:56 | X
      • ...

        Because the stops for those stations are still in use by replacement bus services - tube cards are still valid here. The stations for the new sections are not.

        Stealthy @TheoGB | 17 Sep '09, 14:58 | X
        marckee this'd this
    • Maybe, but aesthetics are less important than function

      joeymahone @TheoGB | 17 Sep '09, 14:51 | X
      • not in London

        brusma @joeymahone | 17 Sep '09, 14:55 | X
      • But it never used to have zones on.

        You used to have to check the big maps generally to get that info. Going back a while, I mean.

        In reality how often does it actually matter what zone a station is in? How often are you so poor that you'd take the tube and get off the stop before the zone change? Otherwise you just beep out and if you've not enough cash to cover the extra zone on your travelcard you pay it off before you get back on the network, no?

        TheoGB @joeymahone | 17 Sep '09, 14:55 | X
        • As I've mentioned up the thread,

          the zones were always on the fold-up paper maps that you can pick up in stations.

          marckee @TheoGB | 17 Sep '09, 15:00 | X
        • Shockingly, not everyone uses an oyster card.

          Zones are absolutely vital if you're on a paper ticket/travelcard.

          colinzealuk @TheoGB | 17 Sep '09, 15:03 | X
          • Well given it's cheaper and lasts forever it is fairly shocking...

            In the days when I had a paper ticket, though, it wasn't often a consideration.

            Clearly it's good to know and I assume they'll still have that information at the train stations and on TFL, but most times you surely know where you're going and you get a ticket that covers it?

            I just don't think it's really the massive inconvenience people are making out.

            TheoGB @colinzealuk | 17 Sep '09, 15:07 | X
            • That's because you live in London

              rather than visit. The majority of paper ticket users are tourists: the ones that
              - won't know beforehand what zone they're travelling to/from
              - use the maps the most
              - tend to try and find out this information at the station.

              It's madness to remove it from the maps to be honest, even though I never personally find myself needing it.

              colinzealuk @TheoGB | 17 Sep '09, 15:11 | X
              • According to TfL

                it's tourists who were most confused by the zones being on the map

                DanielKelly @colinzealuk | 17 Sep '09, 15:12 | X
                • We've already established that TfL are being idiots though

                  All this does is shift the problem to them having to pay excess fares when trying to exit the station instead.

                  colinzealuk @DanielKelly | 17 Sep '09, 15:24 | X
            • It's annoying as fuck.

              I have a Z1-2 Oyster. I'd like to know if there's a danger that I'm going to go into Zone 3 so I can prepare to be charged another quid or whatever, which will come off my auto-top-up thing, which adds £20 on when I'm already over my overdraft limit, earning a phone call from TFL and my bank to abuse me. ALL BECAUSE I HAD TO GO TO EALING FUCKING BROADWAY.

              bamos @TheoGB | 17 Sep '09, 15:14 | X
              • Don't add auto top-up, then.

                I don't. Just do it as and when!

                TheoGB @bamos | 17 Sep '09, 15:19 | X
                • That's just fucking annoying though.

                  Ooh, I might just jump on the bus actually, save myself a couple of minutes. Oh no, I can't, because I forgot to top-up. MOTHERFUCKER.

                  bamos @TheoGB | 17 Sep '09, 15:21 | X
                  • Erm, if you've got a Zones 1-2 travelcard then all bus journeys are free.

                    And you get a fairly obvious noise when you have run over your cost.

                    TheoGB @bamos | 17 Sep '09, 15:23 | X
                    • Oh yeah.

                      My scenario FALLS DOWN HERE.

                      bamos @TheoGB | 17 Sep '09, 15:33 | X
      • exactly

        perhaps they could offer a retarded scribble for the cartographically challenged, but those of us magicians who can make sense of tricky multi-rastered maps deserve the challenge of distinguishing between a river marked "River Thames" and the Victoria Line

        cyberdemon @joeymahone | 17 Sep '09, 15:01 | X
  • The river is coming back

    http://waugh.standard.co.uk/2009/09/boris-saves-the-thames.html

    roastthemonaspit | 17 Sep '09, 14:54 | X
    • yet again boris cocks it up

      boris has let us down. again.

      brusma @roastthemonaspit | 17 Sep '09, 14:56 | X
      • Nothing like sorting out the real issues

        a relatively pointless 'navigational aid' is on it's way back, but fuck the stuff that's going to tell you how much you're actually going to pay.

        colinzealuk @brusma | 17 Sep '09, 15:00 | X
        • The article quite clearly states

          that issue will also be disucussed/reviewed

          DanielKelly @colinzealuk | 17 Sep '09, 15:02 | X
          • Yeah, but if he had any sense

            it'd be instructing them that the zones MUST be on maps and the river'll be reviewed, not the other way around. Priorities completely wrong there.

            colinzealuk @DanielKelly | 17 Sep '09, 15:05 | X
            brusma this'd this
            • Not necessarily

              The decision to drop the zones was based on customer feedback dictating that many found it confusing. I'd disagree with that and perhaps Boris will as well, but the point is the decision to remove the zones had some research basis.

              The river is in no conceivable way confusing. It's an easier call to make.

              DanielKelly @colinzealuk | 17 Sep '09, 15:09 | X
              • To be honest, I'd say both probably should be on there.

                It was all the extra bits of text and things that they've adjusted that really should have gone and left the functional stuff. The attitude that the zones are somehow less important is madness though - it's almost as if no-one's ever walked past a tube map in a station entrance to fight past all the tourists with huge rucksacs spending hours working out which ticket to buy.

                Not that I'm particularly bothered for myself (Oyster card and all that), but if you've got a travelcard or you're an irregular user...

                colinzealuk @DanielKelly | 17 Sep '09, 15:21 | X
                • I think the whole thing is daft

                  I just don't see that there has been any suggestion that the zones are less imoportant, but that the decision to remove them is more difficult to veto

                  DanielKelly @colinzealuk | 17 Sep '09, 15:23 | X
                  • If Boris' powers extend to banning alcohol on all public transport

                    he can sure as hell do what he wants with a map! I fail to believe that this isn't (like the alcohol ban) all about pleasing his core vote rather than actually doing anything useful. Bare in mind that the outcry is mainly about the river and that that's the part that IS being reinstated...

                    colinzealuk @DanielKelly | 17 Sep '09, 15:30 | X
                    • Actually, I dunno why I'm arguing about this

                      it's a stupid idea, Boris is being stupid, but I don't actually care enough to be bothered about whether it comes back or not.

                      colinzealuk @colinzealuk | 17 Sep '09, 15:34 | X
                    • So he's addressing the issue that the (seeming) majority care about

                      rather than the one you'd personally (as well as others too, obviously. I agree with you entirely on the zones) like him too. Seems fair enough.

                      DanielKelly @colinzealuk | 17 Sep '09, 15:35 | X
                      • His job isn't to do what the majority want in every single case

                        his job is to do what's best for London. Obviously ignoring the electorate completely would mean no second term, but it does irritate me that he keeps using TfL and public transport for political ends rather than having the priority of 'keeping London moving' or whatever their slogan is.

                        colinzealuk @DanielKelly | 17 Sep '09, 15:44 | X
                        • Actually

                          doing what the majority want (or more accurately finding a way to reconcile what the majortiy want with what is best for London should the two clash) is precisely his, and any other politician's, job.

                          Which is all besides the point when you consider that neither of us know what his position on the zones being removed is. What we do know is that, due to budgeting reasons, they cannot be immediately reinstated and that discussions on the matter will take place. And again, that all seems pretty fair to me.

                          DanielKelly @colinzealuk | 17 Sep '09, 15:53 | X
                          • It would seem fair to me as well,

                            if he hadn't dictated one thing, but not the other. No reason why he couldn't have said that *both* will be reinstated in November/at a later date or reviewed then. To prioritise the one that a minority are shouting loudest about smacks of populism, particularly when it's less functional (albeit still useful).

                            Disagree on what you define as his job as well. I fully accept and agree that he should be implementing his manifesto (and thus what people want), but apart from that it *should* be about what's best for London, popular or not. Whether you or I agree or not, he's quite right to have put in his alcohol ban (although I'd rather he'd actually implemented some enforcement if it had to be done!), lifted the western congestion charge and changed the bendy buses for normal ones. His mandate didn't extend further than that.

                            It doesn't surprise me at all that he's jumped on the bandwagon - many politicians would - but to do it this way is very disappointing.

                            colinzealuk @DanielKelly | 17 Sep '09, 16:09 | X
                            • I know that I never vote for someone

                              because I want them to do what's best for me or (what I consider best for) society. I decide what I think is best and then I vote according to who serves that best. I know it's not exactly what you're saying but I find the idea of electing someone to vote for me quite disturbing. It's why the Mayor is elected and not appointed.

                              I'd imagine there is more than just an element of bandwagon-jumping. But I can't help but come back to the point that neither you or are know the finer details of the situation. It does seem to me, given the details provided, that the decision to remove the river is a much easier one for Boris to veto. We have no reason to think Boris won't question the sense behind the zone removal when the time comes. In fact, we have every reason to think he will, considering he's announced the decision will be reviewed before the next batch of maps is produced. Which to my mind means that he's bridging the gap between populism and positive action relatively well, at least as far as this matter goes. Tell the public what they want to hear and do the nitty-gritty behind closed doors, innit?

                              DanielKelly @colinzealuk | 17 Sep '09, 16:20 | X
        • Look! Someone has even updated his twitter for him:

          http://twitter.com/MayorOfLondon/status/4053153469

          marckee @colinzealuk | 17 Sep '09, 15:13 | X
  • There's nothing worthwhile outside Zone 2 anyway

    I say we just remove everything from the 4 outer-most zones. Not just from the map either.

    DanielKelly | 17 Sep '09, 14:57 | X
    • Can my mum survivie?

      She's pretty ace.

      Anything north of Neasden I'm all for though.

      roastthemonaspit @DanielKelly | 17 Sep '09, 14:57 | X
      • :(

        colinzealuk @roastthemonaspit | 17 Sep '09, 15:00 | X
    • just you try it son

      just you try it

      Jack_il_biscotto @DanielKelly | 17 Sep '09, 15:03 | X
      • Imagine how good Burnt Oak would look with a huge pile of rubble on it

        roastthemonaspit @Jack_il_biscotto | 17 Sep '09, 15:04 | X
        • a rubble made out of barnet.

          meths @roastthemonaspit | 17 Sep '09, 15:05 | X
          tv_party this'd this
  • wankers.

    meths | 17 Sep '09, 14:57 | X
  • This post basically sums up my thoughts:

    http://notes.husk.org/post/190190934/tube-map

    marckee | 18 Sep '09, 00:54 | X
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