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bit silly isn't it?
I mean middle class people get a lot of stuff done.
they don't have the courage or loyalty of the working classes and neither do they have the money and tradition of the upper classes, they just float around the middle not really doing anything.
An insult is an insult because it's meant to be one. The actual meaning of the word isn't important. Think about it. There's nowt wrong with being a cunt, pig or dog. There's plenty wrong with being called one.
I think it's a brilliant insult. Gets people's backs up when used accurately and inaccurately.
stop ruining the internet by being right about things
You affluent gastropod!
is really sad, and using 'middle class' in a derogatory way is pretty laughable.
Something's gone wrong when people are priding themselves on being at the bottom of the ladder, and laughing at those above them. Obviously it's all pretty redundant as it's not a clear ladder any more, but yeah.
Why? Should people be ashamed of their heritage?
How about just being indifferent and accepting yourself for what you are? As opposed to wearing it like a medal?
I don't think I said anyone should be ashamed about anything.
in fact, it is arguable that in some cases they are one and the same.
also as an aside, laughing at people in authority/better off than you is probably one of the foundations of comedy.
"Being working class" is too general a thing to be proud of, surely?
(but moreso what you may have achieved seemingly in spite of it) and somehow feeling you have bragging rights because you aren't well off.
If asked, I'd probably say I was proud of being working class (whether or not I currently am is a different argument, but I definitely was). But I would have to be asked to say much on the topic.
Why, unless I had any specific reason to, would I not feel positively about myself and my defining attributes and characteristics? Not "look at me, I'm so great, everyone should love me" proud, but a more quiet, discerning "I'm quite pleased with a lot of what I've achieved" proud.
To me that isn't being proud of being Working Class or indeed proud of much, that's just being normal. Otherwise by your reckoning I'm currently proud of:
- being in a flat
- being able to read
- understanding how use a computer
- having bin liners
- having toilet roll in
- knowing how to use my keys
There's a big difference about being proud of something and just not having anything against it.
I've already made it clear in my last two posts that I can understand a sense of pride that comes with not having the best start in life and still achieving your goals and enjoying some measure of success. None of the tasks you've listed are in anyway achievements.
There is indeed a big difference between pride and not having anything against it. But pride is also a complex feeling and there are many more types of pride than the definiton you seem to be working from.
So can you explain how being working class has defined you in a way that my being middle class hasn't defined me (or vice versa)?
"None of the tasks you've listed are in anyway achievements," no they're not but neither is being Working Class and I'd go on to say that in no way does being working class mean a particularly hard start in life over a middle class person these days. You were talking about the achievement of starting somewhere 'low' and making your way up to your goal. That's fine but I'd wager we both started in similar positions yet I've always been middle class.
The people I've seen who've been proud of being working class seem invariably to be proud of NOT being middle or upper class, which probably stems from the 'Noble Lie' type of view. I guess it's not something I ever really understood and it's why I've never understood the use of class as a badge or a stick to beat on people.
I can't see how my social background could have played a bigger role in my development than yours would have done for you, or more generally for people of any particular background. I've never claimed that being working class holds some sort of premium over being middle or upper class. Indeed, the crux of my argument is that everyone should feel good about themselves (unless they have some other reason not to).
Neither have I claimed being working class (or again, middle or upper class) is an achievement in itself; it can however provide a context in which achievement can be placed and as such, I can understand why people would take some sort of pride in their social background.
You seem to be stuck on this idea that being proud of being from one particular background automatically means you think less of another, or use it as "a badge or a stick to beat on people". It doesn't have to mean that at all. The word 'pride' (in discussions like this anyway) is carrying the baggage of the sort of morons you've described and idiot far-right voters who are "proud" of being white.
more that this seems to be exactly the stance taken by those who claim to be 'working class and proud' who I've met.
You still haven't really answered my question and maybe you think I'm needling you. The honest answer is I just find it baffling on every level.
I'm proud that I've managed to learn a bike after 34 years; I'm proud of my guitar playing and the lyrics I've managed to write on a lot of the band's songs; I'm proud of my mum. I just can't work out how I could ever be 'proud' of my background, really.
I'm GLAD I'm English because it's meant I've had a lot of opportunities in life, I can travel around a lot and I speak the de-facto international language fluently, but again, I'm not proud of being English.
So when you said you'd be proud of being working class I was wondering what would make you proud of it, that's all.
I mean growing up I guess my parents were what would be classified as working class. It was rubbish. We never had any more and people were always trying to reposses stuff.
I went to uni and now work in an office so I guess I'd be middle class now, but I don't feel or do anything differently.
There was a girl at uni, always banging on about how working class she was. Dad=IT consultant, mum=headteacher, house=converted barn. She had all her rent and fees paid for by her parents. Just because you're Northern luv, doesn't make you working class
one of the major things I've observed in a lot of students at Uni is class denial. We often have pretty big debates about politics in our kitchen, and people from all around the block come and get involved.
They all seem really bent on proving that they're 'not really middle class', as if it's something to be ashamed of. The lad upstairs always mouthing off about how we need to give more power to the workers etc.'s dad owns some massive business and they live in a huge house set in its own grounds in the south.
grounds and still be working class.
By the by your kitchen sounds great.
Frederik Engels ran his father's textiles factory in Manchester.
I agree about class denial though, it's rife. We have similar kitchen-debate-wars, I win eventually because I seem to be the only one who believes/understands my own position. I think it's based on a misunderstanding of what defines the middle and working classes more than anything, and ignorance of the relative hardship implied. My flatmate thought he was working class because his Mum had to sell her restaurant.
It's easy to define other people because you have a two-dimensional grasp of their appearance and personality and not the complexity of the thoughts most people struggle to even put into words. In truth, we might all be middle class but it's irrelevant so long as you're not denying it. I live in a nice house, but I've achieved nothing in my life so I won't be flushed with pride for my caste until I have. It's best to just not deny it, and be apathetic towards the term from there on.
what I do know is that it would be an absolute mare living with a couple of these posters and just wanting to get a glass of Robinsons from the kitchen and having to endure all this
but if you use it as an example then relatively it'd be the people she employed who qualify as working class, the Polish women who cleaned the bogs and stuff. She was also raised in a nice middle-class area of Cardiff and stuff, so it was more like she was middle class and her business went wrong.
I'm not gonna claim that working class people can't own things though.
Jack il Biscuits, I'm sick of your class denial, you're flagrantly drinking the most middle class drink in the world, BE ASHAMED OF YOUR UP-BRINGING.
It's a joke. I grew up in a single-parent family with my mum working two jobs to support me and my brothers etc. etc. etc., but it's not something I pride myself on. It's just circumstances; how things happened.
If anything it's given me insentive to get something better out of life. People who are happy wallowing in their working classness are fine by me, just as long as they don't think they're any better than anyone else because of it.
could be part of a very British modesty... like, by saying your working class there's less expectation for when you ultimately fail to deliver from the promise your up-bringing has granted you. By degrading yourself, you defend against criticism from family and society.
Not really sure if I believe that, but I guess it's interesting.
if i were to say i'm middle class all i'd be meaning is that "yeah, i'm roughly in the middle...not really anything else to say really...bye" or something
As is 'working class' as an insult, or 'upper class' as an insult.
i remember my mum telling me a few years ago she heard on the Today programme that there were only 2 insults left that were ok
it's used with the implication that the middle classes have something to be ashamed of, which seeing as the vast majority of the population probably would count as middle class if you were to define it today, makes it a bit odd
i blame E.P.Thompson
make it odd to think that the middle class have cause to be ashamed?
to say to the vast majority of people "because of a mixture of your family history, your upbringing, your culture and leisure, and your occupation which has an expedient enough definition to be applicable to anywhere between 50 and 80% of the population, YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED OF YOURSELF"
i've a very definite opinion of the idea of "middle class" as an insult, and it's backed up by the people who use it
that people generally considered to be middle-class (whatever that may be; different argument really) are sometimes the butt of jokes and insults
class in 21st century society is an INCREDIBLY anachronistic concept
My question works either way regardless
about poo or toilet habits please.
Retail parks and cast-iron casserole pots FTW.
I'm probably middle class in an American sense (middle income) but I don't really have English middle class opinions/values/lifestyle.
Tbh, can't say that I'm really into acting posh, wearing stupid clothes and thinking that I'm awesome.
They're just...lame. Really lame. So...lame. They just...they're just lame, aren't they?
I do like how it seems to be the case that on here if you insult the middle class you're a terrible person but it's fine to insult the working-class.
That's what makes you guys lame. Your double standards.
to the working-classes heart, but that's all long in the past.
The second and third-generation middle-classes are the ones which annoy me. Particularly the ones of my generation.
The working class supply the infrastructure for an economy, the middle class are not the "backbone", they're simply the class who feed off those below them.
Also, TheoGB talks shit and annoys me.
and head for the wider world
But a reply like that is what makes you lame. Where's the passion?
brought up by wealthy parents and then playing at being poor.
They fucking deserve it for being hypocrits. Anyone else should just laugh it off.
I bet you're the kind of person who eats prawns.
GO EAT SOME PRAWNS, PRAWN-EATER!
It has its uses. People getting worked up about the use of middle class in a derogatory fashion, end up making it a very good insult indeed. Middle class and working class are both terms, that can be either positive or negative, depending on the context they're used in.
otherwise it's liek
-middle class people are insecure!!!!!
-That's a bit of a silly thing to say
-Ah YOU'RE BEING INSECURE AND WORRYING ABOUT IT
that's even sillier
you can think it's silly, that's your choice. I happen to think it's not very silly at all. An "insult" is designed to work people up, class style insults seem to be quite effective. It's silly to get so offended about such a thing, but it happens because people take these things far too seriously (again not you, just people in general).
middle class people have manners. working class people are all smelly bigots who drink too much.