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not that that's particularly surprising in any way given how successful they tend to be, but y'know
Sure, some people just don't like them at all, but I doubt they make up the majority. The majority don't care either way.
the only possible reactions to protest are sarcasm or depression to be honest.
If someone wants to come up with a feasible plan of action I'd be happy to campaign for its implentation but I can't be fucked with these "we don't like this and have no other solutions"/"we don't like this and have no agreement on what the solution should be but we're going to hang about together looking disgruntled and pretend that counts as a united ideological front" protests.
it's about creating a space in which new ideas can flourish - making people feel united in their sense of disatisfaction rather than isolated and afraid.
maybe you could come along to this help us work on that 'feasible plan of action'?
I'm specifically saying these protests are 'cos nobody's got any agreement on what they're planning to achieve.
Your use of "us" is exactly the fundamental problem here. You seem to be working on the basis there's a united group of people opposed to G20. There isn't. All that unites the people involved in the prosests is that opposition and nothing else. There's absolutely no coherent or constructive ideology linking all the groups.
A feasible plan of action between all of them will never ever happen because they just don't have enough in common for it to happen.
The laughable claim that what's on the right of the screen on that link is a "manifesto" is presumably an attempt at comedy. There's a bunch of empty slogans, the usual negative ideologies - "making Capitalism history" means fuck-all unless you've got an idea of how you're replacing it and I've met few on the left who actually do - and a load of meaningless utopianism which sounds brilliant in theory but contains no tangible suggestion of how it'll be obtained.
What else would you like me to have addressed?
you support the general goals of social reform (non-specific) but without a plan you refuse to protest. but you never suggest an alternative to protesting. you don't take part because the situation's not perfect, but you never voice an alternative option.
for the record, i'm not going to protest on wednesday because i want to make capitalism history, to free palestine, or to ban aeroplanes. i'm going to protest because i think we need a culture of independent thought in which socially diverse groups are bought together by a common sense of disatisfaction rather than seperated by individual beliefs and differences. i can't think of another way to do this other than to protest and to talk, and to encourage other people to do the same thing. if you have a better plan, please do tell me about it : )
I'll spend time thinking about alternatives, and may well campaign for an alternative plan if I come up with one or someone else puts one forward. I might even attend seminars etc. if it seems appropriate and fits in with me. But I won't start campaigning 'til I know what I'm campaigning for.
With regard to your second paragraph - I don't have a better plan other than to talk first and protest later. Diverse groups can't be brought together by a common sense of dissatisfaction. This is where most attempts at creating left-wing political regimes have fallen apart - a failure to percieve and deal with inevitable differences in ideology.
Seminars, discussion groups, action meetings, forums, conferences etc. are about that.
Protesting is about expressing your dissastifaction with a situation and, just as importantly, what you feel someone needs to do to resolve that dissatisfaction.
The idea you can work out what you're protesting whilst your there is farcical.
rather than focusing on the manifesto, then you would see that the alternative G20 is a 'teach in' focused around seminars. not that i expect it to solve the problems with the economy or the environment, but it's more likely to do so than the absence of action that would occur in it's place.
i know why i'm protesting - i'm protesting against the acceptance of received wisdom and traditional ideas to solve the problems of society. i don't believe that i, or any group i've yet encountered, has the solution to these problems, but i also don't believe that we're going to find that solution whilst our society continues to be led by the nose by greed and commerce. i'm protesting for social and self-awreness, not against capitalism or anything else.
pretty traditional, huh : )
for the record, it's not the only thing that's happening.
but they aren't protests - they're a different thing entirely.
'seminars' and 'forums' of this kind never, ever create productive discussion. just vague, irrelevant bullshit.
of the banking fuckwits is a reasonable reason to attend? Better just to keep it to yourself?
can they teach me to wail on the guitar like Robert Johnson?
Everyone watch this, it's about the G20
It's like totally subversive!
be in an unfocused line-up with some Muslim and Christian groups I philosophically disagree with, with some anti-war and free Palestine/Tibet/Burma/add as appropriate protesters who are in the wrong place at the wrong time, and the ever-present Socialist Worker sellers.
It's meanignless protesting 'cos everyone's invited to come along and stand for whatever they like, so long as they're standing against Capitalism. And by extension everyone'll claim everyone there is standing shoulder-to-shoulder to each other and be entirely deaf to the fact everyone's saying utterly different things.
The "I don't care what you stand for, so long as you stand against what I stand against" school or protest is disturbingly pervasive amongst the left and utterly pointless. Will the protesters get what thy want? Of course not 'cos they don't know what they want and don't all want the same thing.
So basically it ends up being "protest with us if you believe anything is better than Capitalism" and if you believe ANYTHING is better than Capitalism I'd suggest you study the history of various political regimes a little more and you'll quickly realise you're mistaken.
"The Man" can always say that these same bunch of loonies would turn up for anything, therefore we can ignore them. Protest should always be focused. It's all fine to create a space to brainstorm ideas but a protest march is not that place
the less the event can be past off as just a bunch of loonies? the more people who attend with interesting ideas to share, the less likely it is to be hi-jacked by single intrest groups?
giving up the right to protest because the may be people there you don't like is like not voting because you disagree with some of the ideas of the party you were thinking of voted for. it's a valid action, but it's not an automatic one. also, the more you get involved, the less likely you are to disagree.
the less it looks like a coherent protest (which it isn't) and the more it looks like a rent-a-mob bandwagon jump (which it is)
a lot of what you've written *seems* to imply that what these people are protesting against contains a coherent and utterly united set of principles. On either side of the divide, that's obviously not true. Internal divisions within any perceived collective is an inevitability and therefore not really a valid form of criticism. To a certain extent, I'd agree that I'm disturbed by the un/easy alliances that spring up in political opposition, but I also wouldn't say that that fact makes collective protest somehow not legitimate.
You said above that "Diverse groups can't be brought together by a common sense of dissatisfaction". I don't know where an idea like that can possibly come from. Of course they can, and the same is true of satisfaction. In a lot of ways what you seem to be disputing is the concept of collective action. It happens. Its inherently inadequate, because people always pull in different directions within any seeming collective, but that's just the nature of the beast.
Obviously diverse groups and and do come together due to a collective sense of dissatisfaction but what I really meant is that it's highly unlikely said diverse groups will be able to reach a practical consensus on how to move forward - some of the elements involved in the G20 protests have inherently oppositional principles and there's just no way you could create a "solution" to Capitalism that would keep them happy.
I guess that's the real frustration I have with the anti-Capitalist movement in its current form - it seems to function on the basis that a solution isn't even necessary so long as you can point out what the problem is . But clearly a solution does matter and it isn't enough to just say "this doesn't work" without creating a consensus on what will, and I just think that trying to create a movement that includes every single anti-Capitalist and anti-American political group ultimately makes finding a "solution" impossible (and I'd argue shows very poor judgement - certainly there's certain groups on the left who probably aren't part of a "solution" to anything) would have more credibility and integrity. There's also the lack of focus - It's like the march on Saturday - there were people with anti-Fascist banners. I'm pleased they're anti-Fascist but it's bollocks to claim that's got anything to do with the current economic situation and the same goes for people with the "Gaza for Palestine" banners and various others. You just end up with an unfocussed march of disgruntlement where everybody's trying to claim their own particular bugbear is an inherent part of the issue, regardless of whether that's true or not.
And because, as I say, I think the differences between the groups makes a consensus impossible (and perhaps undesirable as it'd involve factoring the wishes of some pretty unpleasant people) all you end up with is a negativity to the current system and not a lot else. But if you're not offering anything else how can anyone buy into what you believe in?
The frustrating thing is this is such a perfect moment for someone on the left to come up with a focussed argument and achievable plan of action and get genuine public support behind it but nobody's doing it - they're just opposing with out offering alternatives.
And I think the reason the left is opposing without alternatives is because nobody on the left actually can envisage an end to Capitalism. I'm not even sure some of them want it - it's much safer and easier to rail from the sidelines without having to be pragmatic and come up with another strategy. Anti-Capitalism is, within its very inception, doomed to failure as all it is is a movement to end another movement without promising any kind of future or "better world"; simply a creation of uncertainty.
hemp clad legalise weed hippies, and the 9/11 conspiracy nuts. there won't be many of them, but they'll be there.
I think the "bigger" clubs have earned the right to be protected.
people refuse to give me credit for anything, do you really think I don't know what this thread is about?
or don't read what I'm replying to properly, I can be very absent minded, I'm willing to admit that. some people think this means I'm stupid, which simply isn't true.
money is merely a medium of exchange, and is not under your ownership.
like they protesters have done on the mainland.
Our protests are like tea parties in comparison.
Saying that though, Lloyds have effectively shut down their main offices for the two days of the G20 due to potential 'action'. Nice of them to give their increasingly disgruntled workers the time off to go and speak to the men in charge of fising the world economy.
Should have been 'fixing' the world economy but fisting would also work.
Playmate, witch and eco-warrior, Marina Pepper will be talking about how we can win the revolution.
it's quite amusing:
* Dress down: Staff are permitted to wear casual clothing
* Avoid briefcases/branded bags/computer cases: Put materials in rucksacks or carrier bags where possible
* The office will have only the revolving door entrance open
* Stay in your office building: You should avoid leaving your office building where possible -- hold meetings via phone
* Spectating: Do not leave the building to 'see what's happening' -- this will help the police to focus on the people causing trouble
They make it sound like it's going to be like flipping Dawn Of The Dead outside or something. Barricade the office doors! Don't even think about going to Pret! Leave your jumbo-sized printout of your wage slip at home!
Something along the lines of "OMFG, I LOVE YOU CRISTINA!!! <3"
Is there a specific place I can go with the other "pro-" people, or do I just have to stand among the idiots and shout very, very loud?
Do I get weapons, too? Or at least riot gear?
but to those who say the problem lies with the protest has too manny disparate groups, protests have succeeded before like this. the 1905 russian revolution for one and to an extent 1917. vague dissatisfaction can lead to massive upheaval - though in this case the pieces don't really seem to come together to suggest it will.
they might not be fully aware of it, cos they are numbed by the modern 'opiates of the masses'.
These disparate people obviously might feel oppressed, just because they are3 not coherent, means that the complex links of that which oppresses them are not immediately clear (as links of rule and law are not simple anymore, the links between ruled and ruler are far less direct and simple)
I cannot see any positive thing that can be achieved by protesting, it seems largely pointless, in fact protesting verbally also seems largely pointless, which thus makes most of my posts largely pointless.
They actually prove my point far better. They had a revolution, sure, but then everyone started killing each other, millions of people died, no utopia was created and Russia ended up as a Capitalist society. I'd say that backs up my point about revolutions between disparate groups failing rather than vice versa. Anyone who claims Russia truly achieved a "Communist" revolution leading to a better world for its people would probably do well to re-study 20th century Russian history.
Police whizzing around. I want to go out and investigate but I bet nothing much is actually happening.
Are they on those 'Segway' things. It's about time our fuzz adopted those bad boys. 'DISPERSE, PROTESTORS! I AM WHIZZING AROUND LIKE PETER GABRIEL! WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!'
Just took this photo:
and you are calling them boring.
I'm unsure of what your argument is here, but you might have just lost.
ctrl + f = "i am"