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At a guess.
i love japan because it's amazing and produces the cutest girls on the planet
but the flights = big bucks i dont have
maybe once I get a job or something...
I don't eat fish :(
and also really time consuming to halal every fish.
but I do really love Takeshi's Castle.
Then again, I wouldn't consider myself an indie person.
If so yes, fucking yes!
I'm not indie though, so I don't think that helps much.
Belgians loved the Tutsies in Rwanda
of all the great Japanese music, films and art.
Think of all the amazing american music, films and... art.
Maybe it's just because america is so big and disparate in terms of where stuff is produced, but I still think Japan is liked mostly for cool points.
I mean, I love nintendo, pokemon, a bit of animé and all that, think it's all cool beans... but people seem to give it more credit than its due in respect to other people. Also, most people havn't actually been there, so don't know what it's REALLY like, and without wanting to use "The R word", it's sort of stereotyping a lot...
Same things happen with russia. I wonder if indie people only like countries tempestuous social histories and wee bit of the ole human rights abuse under their belt...
it's showing an interest in the culture. cultural products tend to give one particular view of a country.
just because On The Road sold a million espresso machines and a trillion levis doesn't mean that America is a land of limitless opportunities, cheap gasoline and amphetamines, but it still makes it seem pretty fucking exciting, and that's all that matters....
or racially ignorant or whatever. it's just being enthused with something exciting.
i certainly find it very interesting, I was just wondering why it seems to be so popular an interest at the moment. Probably lost in translation or something.
to creative Westerners. Always.
I'M AN ARTS STUDENT!
It didn't make sense and I'm not stupid.
in Victorian times, it was the poets and more avant-garde of the upper classes who were fascinated with the East.
The Prince Regent built Brighton Pavilion, but there aren't strings of terraces in Manchester done like Buddhist temples for the proles to live in.
Fitzgerald translated The Rubiyatt of Omar Khyamm, but it was hardly required reading in the Corporation Schools.
The Western obsession with the East generally stems from a general, racist orientalism constructed by intellectuals and artists from the time of Marco Polo onwards. It's all about creating The Other, innit.
Don't stop Japanese culture being fascinating though.
It's all the clever, sharp indie kids who wanna be writers and artists who love Japan, not some miserable chav in Burnley.
it's the rich who have shaped our fascination with the east, and they did it in a plenty parochial way, even if the fascination with the orient has become more classless in recent years.
in what way? because you can trace our fascination with the East from the views of intellectuals 200 years ago? Sorry if our past makes you uncomfortable, but our British attitude to the world is totally tangled up with our arrogant, colonial leaders.
but the whole indie subculture is based around people being intelligent and interested in the arts. that's intellectualism in my book.
you're missing the point, which is that a certain type of Victorian intellectual (and at this time, an intellectual would have been on the arts side of things) created our fascination with the East.
I have no knowledge of Victorian intellectualism.
And I would never willingly speak to anyone who described themselves in such terms. I'd hate being a writer or artist more than most anything in the world. In fact, surely a lot of people who love Japan love it because of the technologies and the way everything looks the same etc etc... more or less the opposite of creative?
It's practical, and ordered, and generally not creative, at least not in the kind of way you were talking about.
"creative" or whatever (and i doubt very much you're not creative, if you're here) doesn't mean that your interest in Japan doesn't stem from intellectuals and artists in the past? care to explain some more
no idea what you're talking about. In fact, I don't think you're even making any sense at all.
that the modern, British fascination with Japan (whatever it is motivated by) is based solely on racist intellectuals in the 19th century and before creating a two-dimensional picture of the East - stretching from Constantinople to Kyoto - as a homogenous mass which is diametrically opposed to the west, and furthermore "exotic".
Your interest in Japan is based on the racism of rich people and artists in Victorian times.
In other news, that still doesn't make sense. At all. One bit.
But appreciate the effort, or something, k?
that i wrote "before" instead of "by" for some reason, but yr clever enough to work that out yrself.
You've given a ridiculous statement without anything to explain it or back it up.
Presumably because it's stupid and there isn't anything.
The Prince Regent building the Brighton Pavilion and Fitzgerald translating The Rubiyatt of Omar Khyamm.
For the Victorians, the East was some exotic, sexually liberated and decadent wonderland where they could live out their fantasies. It's escapism because they set out to make it as far removed from reality in their heads as they possible could.
I'm sorry if it makes you uncomfortable, but it's the way it works.
I so don't get this. You're saying the Victorians were interested in the east. Rich, intellectual Victorians.
And then you're saying I like the East because rich intellectual Victorians liked the East.
You haven't explained how those two are connected.
And it doesn't make sense.
Why are you so strange?
You like the East because rich, intellectual Victorians created an impression of the East as being 'mysterious' and Other, a diametric opposite to the west.
And that sense of the East being Other continues to reverberate in modern culture. It's still fascinating because you (me, and everyone else) see it as being exotic and otherworldly.
i'm not strange either. it's a very thoroughly documented and widely accepted cultural phenomena.
Read the bit on Edward Said especially
And it's not exotic. When I think of Japan, I think of mechanical, and efficient, and sterile, and samey and whatever. I don't see it as being exotic or 'otherworldly' one bit....
or whatever the word in when you're talking stuff that doesn't make sense.
and it makes sense
whether you think of Britian as being mechanical, efficient, sterile and samey.
if you don't, then you're making Japan exotic. In this context it doesn't necessaily mean lying on a beach being fanned by a slave with a palm tree. Just, completely outside of your western experience. and by the sound of it, you do think that.
But in that case you have to think of everywhere foreign as being exotic which means it has nothing to do with freaking victorians and you still make no sense.
then why are you so interested in Japan then?
and on what basis do you have to think of everywhere foreign as exotic? is France completely outside your western experience. It's laws, culture, world-view are based on more or less the same things that British ones are...
You're talking about copmpletely different things to me, and relating them in no way at all and making no sense so I'm going to stop talking now before I lose all will to live.
so we'll just accept that i have a better idea of what you are thinking than you do. that's fine with me.
i don't really see how i am talking about completely different things to you when i responded directly to yr posts.
anyway, it's alright if you don't get it :):):)
And you've actually turned in to the most freaking jerk of a person ever.... or if you're just deliberately trying to wind me up, in which case really not much better.
So either way, shut up, kthanks.
i reckon i do have a better idea of what you think about Japan than you do. yeah.
even more idiotic than I did initially.
liking beer or the landscape, an interest in Berlin, a desire to go skiing, is based upon previous social and historical forces that have acted upon them.
because i don't believe that human beings have very much autonomy? sorry to shatter yr idyll.
You just come across as one of the most singularly annoying, ridiculous people ever. Seriously, just everything you say makes me want to strangle kittens.
how would you rather i disagreed with you? it's kind of difficult to do it in a nicer way when you don't understand what i'm arguing when it's set out in its most basic form
it's not a level bullshit though.
just because something is simplistic and slightly uncomfortable doesn't mean it ain't true.
its quite reactionary and practises the same generalising games that youre accusing other people of...
It was the kind of essays we got to write in Year 9.
then why couldn't you follow the connections i was making?
anyway, i'm off to downtown tora bora, i hear the clubbing scene is pretty rad and hey it's a bit different right?
i also get the 134 bus sometimes.
Incindetally, are you an arts student?
I'm just not a moron.
I suspect it will soon shift to China, if the articles about Shanghai clubland and stuff are anything to go by
Just because the cultural phenomena that currently fascinate people about Japan are developments of the last 30 years, doesn't mean that they're not posited in opposition to Western culture.
And yr naive to think that Kabuki theatre and suchlike don't inform J-pop and manga.
Hence my massive laudanum habit and conviction for stealing birds eggs.
out of genuine interest, why?
And 90%+ of these types I know, I hate. I might like what they do, but in most cases them, I hate.
but what is it about creativity - or presumably creative people - that makes you actively hate it, rather than just ignoring it or being indifferent to it?
and it's different to yours. I still don't see how disagreement with someone on an internet forum becomes hatred of some amorphous group.
If other people want to be, more than happy for them to do that.
And he doesn't "just have a view". It's a stupid view, expressed stupidly, by someone who seems to think they're very, very clever.
you are on a forum that is bound to feature many of the kind of people you seem to dislike, though!
"a stupid view, expressed stupidly, by someone who seems to think they're very very clever"
problem is, it also tends to be the correct view as well....
I agree with quote part.
i'm only in this thread to to say two things. one, i really like all the points you made up there, and i kind of (apart from the said otherness bit) agree, historically speaking. although, two, i agree with everything pocketmouse says as well, recently.
Indie fascination with japan? to the extent that there is one, i'd probably say it was because of spirited away.
all of his points are the 'said otherness bit'?
western intellectuals romanticising the east. especially in the 19th and early 20th centuries. and i agree with the bit about most personal opinions being socially conditioned.
How popular are Russian restaurants, technology, television shows etc among young people today? I suppose culturally there is a older affinity for tsarist art and literature.
Perhaps you are referring to the separate, rapidly decaying affinity for socialism as pop philosophy, but I would hardly count that as being specifically focussed on the USSR.
Neon Genesis Evangelion
It seems fun enough, but there are other places I'd rather go to.
Because it's "alternative". Only squares go and visit New York or Australia.
They've really got my number!
Oh there's also one for "asian girls".
I'M A WHITE PERSON
My boss is going there on holiday this wednesday which ment that I wasn't allowed time off as well because I have to cover for her.
Thus, whilst all my mates go to Bratislava for a 5 day mash-up I get to work twice as hard all alone stranded in the UK
silly silly silly.
sitting in a tree
Cripes, us psychologists have to be super careful about generalising society-wide trends on an individual level. In fact, we simply shouldn't do it.
The idea of using 'cultural trends' in this way.. amazing scenes.
victorian times at that.
would be japanese
it's so 'different' to us (ie. westerners) and therefore seems exotic and erm... obscure?
indie types love that shit.
I was thinking to myself, "man, I want to go to Japan someday."
Then I thought, "wait, why do I want to go to Japan?"
After mulling it over, none of the reasons I could think of were that convincing. I think I've become so used to the idea of Japan being a place everyone wants to go to that I never realised any concrete reasons for wanting to go.
Indie Kitty of course...oh wait no, that's Emo Kitty, sorry. I have no idea, but I'll be there in two weeks.
i dreamt i was stuck in The End of Evangelion, in the bit where the world ends. it was horrific.
and - frankly - i cannot wait.
It's the diversity of the whole place that appeals. We'll be in the fast-paced setting of Tokyo, skiing in mountains, traditional cultural havens like Kyoto and some sun on the south islands...all within three weeks. It'll be amazing, and for the same reasons i suspect this is why many people like it so
Anyway, I'm going back there in October, and looking forward to it immensely.
is my only concern about going there. I think i'll just have to grin and bear the fish oils used for cooking. So long as i don't ingest flesh, i should be ok