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I know it's become a bit of a cliché, but, if true, isn't that actually quite a good defence?
would either be grounded in fact or a wildly ridiculous accusation.
i just don't see why you'd need to get defensive. you either have those prejudices, or you don't.
if you're accused of being something you are ideologically opposed to and don't want to be thought of as being.
if i was accused of being racist i wouldnt think of an excuse, i would simply just tell the person that i am not.
taking the racist aspect of it away, for example if someone said you dont like pizza, a pretty standard response if you did would be to say 'i eat it all the time'.
Just denying you are something is hardly "the lady doth protest too much".
it may be an example, but its just not neccesary
Ha! I pulled a Seinfeld in collage: I dated this Indian chick (not the American Indian kind, eh) and she told me to stop chewing gum cos it'd screw up the enzymes in my stomach or something. I said I'd rather chew gum. Ha!
I dunno who you're quoting here, sorry.
wtf. American schools, what am I to do?
but it's genuinely considered the thing you *don't* say if someone accuses you of being racist or whatever. Like if you say "I have loads of black friends", then it's confirmation that you are actually racist. Which is pretty dumb. Although I think I can see the logic behind it. But still - pretty dumb.
as if they are a token 'hey im down with everyone' type thing.
I'm just trying to imagine the alternative. Would that be being completely oblivious to the skin colour of everyone around you? I think that's a slightly utopian ask.
What I think it is is that, if you resort to that, people see it as an indication of you not being able to justify your points of view in a rational manner. One conclusion of that is that you *are* actually racist, but there are so many other conclusions to reach.
i think you would be aware of different defining aspects of your friends, just to use it as proof that you dont have a prejudice is a bit silly.
is there a better proof?
one of my best friends at school was from zimbavwae, but i dont see him much anymore, and at the moment none of my close friends are black, so therefore would i be considered more likely to be racist than someone who is friends with a black person?
Sorry :(. But only in the sense that I wouldn't be able to say for certain that you weren't racist. I certainly wouldn't be led to the conclusion that you were. And that's assuming you could say with fair degree of certainty that someone with black friends was not racist.
Going back to your pizza example, it's like saying someone not eating pizza is less likely to like pizza than someone eating pizza, but that doesn't mean the person not eating pizza doesn't like pizza.
whereas with the colour of the skin thing, there could be a 'oh hes alright, its the rest of them mentality'. i think with issues such as these its a lot more fuzzy. (i was going to make a pun on its not a case of black and white but couldnt bring myself to)
Seriously though, with absolutely no pun intended, I can't decide whether it is black or white or not. In my mind, it is. To me, being friends with several black people is a clear indication that you are not racist.
However, racism is not a rational thing (not at the most fundamental level, anyway), so I accept that 'oh he's alright, it's the rest of them' could be, and indeed probably is (I've never experienced it first-hand), a possible mentality. In fact, there is a large part of me that thinks, even without anecdotal evidence, yes, that is the case.
So I'm confused about it. I want to stand by what I said in the initial post, and I can't really reason it away, but at the same time, I guess what you'd just called life experience has taught me you can't always view things like that. Which leaves me curious to know how widely held the 'oh he's alright, it's the rest of them' is.
I'm inclined to view everything in black and white and say "No! Skin colour *is* exactly like pizza!", but I know that other people aren't. Because they are stupid. But then I like ketchup in hot dogs, but not on anything else. And if someone asked me if I liked ketchup, I'd say I didn't. But if they saw me eating a hot dog, they'd think I did. :(
because if you say 'oh he's alright, it's the rest of them', i.e. if you have a black friend, then it indicates that, irrespective of what you say, you are willing to give black people a chance, for want of a less patronising phrase, so is it actually an issue?
but im quite sure that the mentality i described exists. the black friends thing can also be called upon in situations where the person may want to not be perceived as racist.
i think a lot of the time it seems that people may have an inclination towards racism, but allow themselves to have black/different ethnic background friends, providing they 'prove themselves' or 'earn their respect' which in turn leads to the 'its the rest of them attitude'. they see colour of your skin as a negative aspect of someones character, but it is not fixed, just something they see as undesireable, among characteristics they favour more.
i think i have experienced examples of people exhibiting the attitude i described and have heard other people describing it.
And I have loads of black friends. :(
to be a negative aspect of the person as a whole.
But what I'm saying is, if you're willing to dismiss it, then maybe it's the case that it's not really a factor at all.
it could be levels of racism. e.g. there may be someone who completely despises black people/jewish people/ whatever. But there is also the possibility of a more mild form of racism, whereby they dislike black people, but are not completely ruled by this.
Because to me, it seems like a viewpoint you hold in theory but you never actually put into practice. Like if you're holding a job interview and a black guy goes for the job, and he's extremely well qualified, so you give it to him, "even though" he's black. Really, has the fact he's black actually come into play at all?
I guess you might have a white guy and a black guy with exactly the same qualification interviewing for the job, and the white guy getting it purely because he's white, but if they have exactly the same qualifications, there's going to have to be some form of discrimination anyway.
But then, if the black guy has only slightly better qualifications, the white guy might still get the job. Yes, in the hypothetical situation I just created, the white guy still gets the job. So... I don't know. I'm tired.
Especially in the case you described where it is completely irrelevant and should be so. The fact that someone would even consider that in my opinion constitutes racism. people should not have to be even better because of something like skin colour in order to acheive the same as somoene considered more favourable. its an old, outdated viewpoint in my opinion.
I disagree with the dismissing thing, i think the point that it is even taken into consideration, is the point at which it becomes an issue, although its less of an issue than out and out discrimination etc.
i don't have any close friends who aren't british. i'm pretty fucking far from xenophobic/racist though.
this 'excuse' shit is just a result of national paranoia about prejudices and it's really, really sad.
at least i can cluck and shit.
i actually dont have any black, gay, jewish, muslim or vegetarian friends.
would you have Jewish friends?
which i think may be vaguely relevant here.
I've once walked into a bar in downtown Chicago that was completely black. It was uncomfortable. Does this make me racist?
Similarly, in prison the whites eat in one location and the blacks in another and the Mexicans in yet another. Is this racist?
I feel more comfortable around whites. Whites with a similar culture and background to my own. Does this make me racist?
I've dated women of just about every nationality. I've enjoyed every one of them! But I still think if I marry a woman she'd very probably be white. Am I racist?
I'd say: No, Yes, No and No to the above.
Sometimes it's a fine line between preferring to be within your own ethnic culture and xenophobia, but usually the line is discernable.
And also, its been my experience that whites these days are making the greatest effort to curb racism. You could probably make the point that a certain amount of a "fuck you whitey" attitude from minorities is to be expected, but that's beside the point, eh.
why exactly you feel more comfortable around people of the same skin colour and similar cultural background as one could easily argue it is the result of pervasive, covert racism.
but, its quite interesting that the only thing you think is racist is the one which (i assume) isnt to do with you, and yet might not actually be indicative of racism as you might think about it elsewhere. hard to know though really, these kind of things can vary quite widely from country to country...
Actually this is pretty much the key here.
The bar thing is more about standing out I think. Probably you were stared at, yeah? I'm just guessing that if you're the only white guy in an all black bar there's probably a reason for that. Just as a goth would feel out of place in an all-white bar full of Yuppies.
The social thing is really where a lot of it is out. If you're middle class and quite well off you'd probably feel far more comfortable with a well-off, middle class black person than a poor working class oik of a white person.
However, in the UK (and probably US) it's a sad fact that racial minorities tend to be in the poor and working class bracket so racism gets further muddied.
friendly acquaintances yes, but not proper friends.
am I racist?
I think I just don't meet many black people.
Mostly because they shoot them if they try and get over the fence. But that's not my fault, I don't make the rules do i?
what does that make me?
it would come up.
racism is completely illogical.
lots of racists will be nice to other races face to face, thinking of their black friend as "not like all the rest" or whatever.
so if you're inaccurately ranting about "bloody immigrants coming over and taking all our jobs", and someone suggests that you're a xenophobe, saying that one polish guy that you worked with is your friend doesnt stop you from being the sort of person who inaccurately rants about "bloody immigrants coming over and taking all our jobs"
and it's definitely possible to hold viewpoints which may be considered racist or whatever else, without them actually being so. It happened to me on here (that's partly why I started the thread), and while I could spend ages trying to justify what I said and prove that it's not xenophobic, ultimately, it would surely be easier, and probably more satisfactory, to demonstrate that I do actually have loads of friends of a variety of races and nationalities. (Note "loads" of friends, rather than just one or two.) That's obviously not the same as just saying it, but in principle, I'm still not sure I see what is wrong with it as a defence.
without just repeating what i said in the post that you're replying to
unless I misunderstood you? And really, I don't know that ranting about immigrants taking our jobs makes you a xenophobe. Like I said earlier, sure, that could be one conclusion to reach, but there are several other conclusions as well. No, "saying that one polish guy that you worked with is your friend doesnt stop you from being the sort of person who inaccurately rants about "bloody immigrants coming over and taking all our jobs"", but that doesn't mean it doesn't suggest you're not a xenophobe.
With regard to "lots of racists will be nice to other races face to face, thinking of their black friend as "not like all the rest" or whatever", is that not quite a superficial thing?
person two: "youre a racist"
person one: "some of my best friends are racial"
person two: "you must be very conflicted then"
Person one: "something that person two interprets as racist" would be better.
That's maybe massively naive, but it's what I'm envisaging.
friends are just people that you're put in a situation with and enjoy the senses of humour of. so its easy to waive your "ideologies" of casual prejudice if you work in a small office and there are a couple of gay guys who aren't demonstrably camp and are smart and funny or whatever
and saw them getting off with eachother you wouldn't go "ewww gross. fucking fags"
i wouldnt, cos im not a homophobe.
i have very few gay friends.
i sort of made that point earlier, but i think you described it pretty well.
Darkies, rug-munchers, pink-cigar smokers, vagitarians, wops etc, so I am no way any of those things.
my flying headbutt, it's not.
about having friends from different ethnic/cultural backgrounds but still being racist is one of the stranger fallouts of multiculturalism in modern society. I lived with people at uni who all had asian or black friends but were still incredibly racist about the kids out in the street.
Ironic racism is really getting me down
I don't like Islam, but I'm friends with a few Muslims at school.
So I'm sort of a double negative.