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Anyone know anyone who has killed themselves?
What are your views on suicide?
though I think it was accidental as it was recorded as open verdict. Kids eh?
but did dream that my brother had. It was fucking awful.
my friend jumped off a bridge and thought 'if the world wants me it'll keep me'. and he survived.
now he's immortal.
Suicide it's a suicide
Suicide it's a suicide
So you wanna die, commit suicide
Dial 1-800-Cyanide line
Far as life, yo it ain't worth it
Put a rope around your neck and jerk it
The trick didn't work
Your life was fucked up from the first day of birth
After watching Jackie Gleason walk into a precinct
Gun down the captain for no fucking reason
And get some LSD or a drink from the bar
Get behind your wheel and crash the car
Like Desert Storm, got bombs for the war
confront an alligator, let it eat ya raw
Back to the function, riding the caboose to hell
BZZZZZT touched the third rail.
You fucked up chicken, now you just got fried
Cause it's a suicide
Hey you little rich kid, what's your beef?
Come and tell the Grym Reaper all of your grief
You asked for a Benz and you only got a Jeep
Your pop's got endz, but yo he's mad cheap
Maybe you're a bastard child you think
Mom and dad are white and you're dark as ink
Maybe you're Sicilian with a tan
But you hate lasagna and the pizza man
Now you stand on the grave digga locked and
You're singing the blues about the rough life you've got
You don't wanna live no more
I guess you're really ready for the grave yard tour
When you get home just fill up your windows and you doors
Turn your oven on high for about four hours
Light you a blunt, kiss your ass goodbye
You gassed yourself 'cause it's a suicide
I've said it before and I'll say it again
Life moves pretty fast
If you don't stop and look around every once in a while
you could miss it
Six fucking devils stepped up playing brave God
Had the fucking nerve to try and enta my grave yard
I'm the Ryzarector, be my sacrafice
Commit suicide and I'll bring you back to life
The first was convinced
Stuck a water hose in his mouth at full blast so his head can explode
Second said hmmmm that's good but I can top it
Put an ax up to his head and then he chopped it
Blood shot out in every direction
The rest didn't know what to do, I made suggestions
Put a slug in your mug, overdose on a drug
Wet your hair stick a knife in the plug
Or be like Richard Pryor set your balls on fire
Better yet go hang yourself with a barbed wire
Three and Four fell deep into spell and
Ran to the zoo, locked themselves in a lion's den
Number Five said it ain't worth being alive
Smoked a dust suede, mixed it with cynaide
The only one to escape was number Six
He went home
Sat in the tub and slit his wrists
Yeah, more graves to dig. Goodbye
There's no need to cry...
... cause we all die
pato? is that you?
I changed the second one to the more accurate 'A-RARGH-RARGH' but forgot the rest.
Shame on me for not knowing them all off by heart though.
quote the digaz..
i just knew it
fucking awful attitude to take, to be honest.
no, that's a fairly standard and acceptable view.
Labelling suicide as 'selfish' just implies that a person can 'get over it' and 'pull themselves together', in my view.
That said, I don't think Jasmine was really espousing that sort of viewpoint, though it definitely came out badly.
and balanced point of view.
it was before we knew each other,she doesn't feel like she wants to die anymore. A few years ago I seriously considered suicide I had it all planned out, I am glad I didn't go through with it though.
doubt many people take it very lightly when they're doing it.
A guy who I knew for a few months shot himself in the head in January. He found out his girlfriend was checting on him by catching an STD from her, he was living away from home (in LA), and he committed suicide. Seems rather silly and pointless to me (this instance, not suicide in general).
only very loosely
I'm really not sure. I wouldn't do it (I can't foresee me ever doing it).
Nobody close to me, but friend of my sister took an overdose 6 years ago. That fucked me up a bit because he was only a bit older than me (I was 16 at the time)
My friend's dad killed himself when I was in Primary school. I remember our teacher trying to tell us what had happened. Trying to tell a class of 11 year olds about a suicide. Nice.
Anybody who says that suicide is a selfish act is a selfish cunt.
but I'm far too hungover to get into this debate.
Also a hypocrite.
the ultimate selfish act.
that doesn't mean I think people are wrong to do it. if you genuinely hate existence so much that you want to become nothing then go for it.
but it is utterly selfish because there are no consequences for you. its the cessation of all experience. you will never feel any of the implications of what you've done. you'll just cease to be.
but for everyone you left behind....
But there is no "you" to be selfish. Which only leaves the selfish people left behind, feeling sorry for themselves because of their loss, or something.
but at the point where you do the act there's a you. and you have some conception of the consequences of your actions.
and I'm not saying the people left behind aren't selfish too. you could well ask them whether they'd want their friend to continue living, only to suffer. but you can't blame them for feeling that way.
when you die, all that remains is the consequences of everything you've ever done. that's what you've got to 'live with', aha ha.
But none of this matters to the person who has just killed themselves, because they no longer exist. Consequences are a facet of existence, but it looks like you already arrived at that conclusion.
This argument is academic, anyway, so I'm sorry for starting it. Since suicidal depression is pretty much a mental illenss, I think a bit of perceived selfishness can be forgiven.
experience of suicide/depression and such for various reasons. And it's not something I take lightly. it is sometimes a mental illness, sometimes it's a result of getting yourself stuck in a loop of bad thinking.
all I'm disagreeing with is the idea that it's not a selfish thing to do.
but this is not really the point at all.
it's not the most fundamental point. but for people left behind you don't want to be told you're a 'cunt' for feeling hurt and betrayed by someone who took their life without considering your feelings.
but this doesn't imply that you have to 'blame' the person who committed suicide.
they're responsible for what they do. just because it's their right to take their own life (as i believe it is) doesn't mean that they shouldn't engage fully with what they're deciding.
unless you want to end up 'Heathers' territory. 'Taking your life is one of the most important decisions a young person will ever make'. It's not like The Suicidal are a minority group, or a religion. They're people who are so unhappy they want to die.
If you can talk them through their feelings you can often help them decide for themselves that, actually, they don't want to die after all. They're often not rational at the point when they're thinking about taking their life, making them think about their family or whatever can help them change their mind - of their own free will. A decision they may later be grateful for, and which they can always change their mind about if things go bad again. If someone really wants to kill themselves they will.
If I take the last biscuit without checking that's selfish. In fact, in all areas of life, you would only describe something specifically as 'selfish' because it represented a conscious decision by a person to put themselves before others.
Suicide may be 'selfish' in a literal sense of you don't have to deal with the consequences, but those who attempt it are usually of the opinion they are putting everyone else before them, that their existence is a bad thing for the world and hence their life should be forfeit.
To describe suicide as selfish ignores fundamentally what selfish means in general usage. A sort of sophistry (I think?).
there's any merit in someone considering suicide thinking about the notion that it would be a selfish act? do you not think that might help them make the best decision? whatever that may be....
as I assume that anyone who's considering it is already mentally ill and therefore cannot consider things in any coherent light.
I mean, I don't know but surely if you're thinking of killing yourself you've lost the ability to think clearly and rationally?
You are likely to already be thinking that people would be better off without you so trying to explain it the other way round just invites further rationalisation to this: "They'll get over it; if I stay their pain will just go on", that sort of thing?
this is one of the reasons people do end up in this position. they base rational conclusions on their irrational emotions. i.e. they have 'medical' depression - as opposed to depression caused by an event or series of events - but can still think rationally so they almost 'invent' reasons why they must feel bad, when in fact they feel bad because of their brain chemistry.
so they still have some rationality and can, sometimes, be brought back into a happier and more coherent world view (in which they hopefully don't want to die) by appealing to the rationality which remains. such as by getting them to think 'would my family, honestly, be happier if I died? or am i just thinking self-centrically' - which is not the same thing as selfishly.
only applies to certain people obviously, before I get accused of generalising again.
I certainly agree with the latter part up to a point, but I'm not sure anyone 'really wants to kill themselves'. Once somebody gets to this stage it can assume a kind of desperate inevitability.
If they are not rational at the point they're thinking about taking their life, surely they can't be held responsible for it?
Isn't this why our legal system makes allowances for 'diminished responsibility' on the basis of mental illness?
If I had attempted suicide, and somebody told me it was selfish, yes, i would think they were a cunt. I might not say it though, like I did just then.
everybody ever has ever performed is equally selfish, i.e. 100%.
Why is it any more selfish than pressing the button at your local pelican crossing that 2574 miles down the road causes a multiple car pile-up?
I disagree with your first statement.
he (effectively) said that suicide is not selfish. and I disagree. It's more selfish because you don't have to live with the consequences.
there are shades of gray as I've already acknowledged but in every single other case of anything you'll ever do you have to live with the consequences of your actions. You might 'get away with' robbing or murdering someone but you still exist on the same plane as your actions.
with my first statement? It's basically a tautology.
What is the point of saying that 'suicide is selfish' though, even if you believe it? It is just about the most unhelpful reaction I can think of.
a tautology depends on whether you consider 'selfish' to be a binary state. which i don't.
and i guess it would be pretty selfless to decide to do it 30 years or later, when half of them have had the decency/selfishness to die before you, meanwhile enduring decades in which you might want fervently not to exist.
that wasn't very coherent but i guess my point is, we're all going to die sooner or later. for some people, they're in enough emotional/psychological/physical pain that for them it has to be sooner. it's pretty brutal to suggest that they oughta just suck it up and keep on living for sheer decency's sake [i know that's not quite the point you're making but it's a p.o.v. i've encountered in past discussions about this].
it is a very unnatural decision to make - the human instinct is to survive, and to decide NOT to goes against everything we're meant to believe - but there again we're not meant to live forever either. it's pretty sad & shortsighted if people terminate their lives because of one thing that's happened to them. but if you're in the depths of despair and can see no alternative escape, a suicide attempt, successful or otherwise, should prompt regret and sympathy, not contempt for the selfishness of the action.
hung himself from a tree in the back garden when he was 17 or 18. His dad found him the next morning.
He was troubled.
Kennedy and Kruschev can sort thing out before it comes to that.
This is what happens when you put a disembodied hand in charge of a nuclear arsenal.
as for the selfishness argument, its hard to say. my ex best friend disappeared last year for a weekend after leaving a note that seemed a bit more than ambiguous. worst 2 days of my life, by far.
in such a desperate state that they consider taking their own life, accusing them of being selfish is incredibly crass and unhelpful
and i know its not helpful, but its just the way people feel.
But they are being selfish.
To call them selfish would be crass and unhelpful, yes.
But that's what tact is for.
killed himself last week. Apparently it had been coming for a while, but he's still really cut up about it.
I've concluded that, in the event of zombie attack, I'd definitely just kill myself. It really doesn't look like staying alive would be worth the effort.
There are ways to think yourself out of every situation, and that one is the most cowardly of all. To be gifted existence is a wonderful thing. True, you could say that to be cursed with exiswtence is a terrible thing... but I wouldn't agree with you.
Unless you've been kept in a black cave for twenty years and beaten every day or something. In which case, it might be better to die than endure an existence of abject misery and torture. But in terms of being-a-bit-depressed-in-modern-life - it's ridiculous.
I don't know anyone who has tried it to my knowledge.
your projection of what constitutes an inadequate reason for committing suicide has no relation to the internal life of another human being
out the trite phrase "oh but youre entitled to your opinion", but that doesnt quite cut it. i almost think that nobody has a right to have an opinion on suicide, as obviously contradictory as that sounds (and is). "opportunity" is such a subjective appraisal of life that is only meted out (much in the same way as my argument is) as a result of one's position in life. life isnt "essentially" a curse or a blessing.
resourceful as yourself, John, and for you to judge it as cowardly is a bit arrogant
fundamentally misunderstood the nature of depression here, to the point of being quite offensive.
if you're suicidal it actually is an existence of abject misery and torture, not 'being-a-bit-depressed-in-modern-life'.
but not necessarily always
if life is bad enough for you to consider suicide then it would pretty much constitute 'misery and torture' to continue to live. i say that having known people who have attempted suicide, 'misery and torture' seem to me to be accurate synonyms for what they were experiencing
I meant that the circumstances of the individual don't necessarily have to be torturous...
I hear that the number one quality looked for in serial killers is lack of empathy.
but i wouldn't dream of suggesting it is cowardly.
i can't imagine ever feeling that way - it has never ever come close to crossing my mind and i have the greatest sympathy for anyone who has ever even considered it
In both cases it was a shock, as they had apparently got over their 'troubles', which in any case, seemed minor to the outsider.
I strongly recommend this book - 'Night Falls Fast: Understanding Suicide' by Kay Redfield Jamison. It is a very clear (and alarming) document of the signs to watch for and possible causes.
wrong with suicide, but i reckon in a lot of cases, it only happens when people cant see a way out, while there is actually. You want to help people who are suicidal and often you can - help give them perspective or sort the problem out. But sometimes you cant. Or the person is too far gone.
I personally am too scared of death to ever really want to kill myself, though occasionally though about it.
why people dismiss suicide as selfishness. if somebody wants to die, isn't making them continue to live for your own sake selfish?
"it is utterly selfish because there are no consequences for you"
But there ARE consequences for you persevering and there aren't for those you would otherwise have left behind.
Suicide has benefits for the person who has died and is problematic for those they leave behind. A suicidal person continuing with life just flips the equation the other way around
for you if you die. unless you believe in an afterlife, which is going to take us into a whole different spectrum of argument.
and yes it flips the equation around. and neither way is inherently better or more moral. both contain selfishness.
act *contains* selfishness - i simply find it ridiculous when people condemn suicide as an option on the grounds that it is selfish. and presumably that moral judgement assumes that it is more selfish than any alternative.
conceivable is selfish. so where does its particular relevance lie in the discussion of suicide if one is not loading it with moral evaluations?
you can have both sides being selfish
mr suicide head = selfish cos the suicide will make all his family and friends very very sad
family and friends = selfish because suicde head being alive will make suicde head very very sad
you can't describe it as a selfless act can you? (in most cases)
i think people don't like branding a sucide victim as being 'selfish' because it is a word with negative connatations and pepole don't like slagging off the depressed and dead , but most people's everyday actions are domnated by the advancment of the self, the desire to make things better/ happier/ more convienient. i will quite happily put my hands up to being, essentially, led by selfish wants and desires - there is nothing awful or disrespectful about aknowledging a suicide attempt as selfish (although i would steer clear of branding it purley as a selfish act and take into view the elements of desperation, despair and frustration that a sucider must, i imagine, feel)
but it's kinda obvious - I don't think many people who commit suicide would describe it as an act they committed for other people.
'they'll be better off without me' is a stereotyped but genuine sentiment a lot of would-be suicides express.
what he said. you can't live for other people.
you can have a perfectly rewarding life dedicated largely to bettering the existence of others. I know of formerly suicidal people who have thrown themselves into charity work and it's given them a new purpose and resulted in them no longer being suicidal. you can find meaning in relationships and altruism that might what was lacking and what made you feel suicidal in the first place.
I think it's a very rare person for whom suicide is genuinely the only way out.
but I'm being forced to come at this from the wrong angle, by virtue of the first thing i said re suicide being selfish.
people with suicidal feelings should have some outlet for them. it shouldn't be taboo to say 'i feel like killing myself'. there should be help available, so anyone who has a genuine chance to improve their life and conquer their suicidal feelings can do so.
in fact there IS such support available and I've been heavily involved in it during my time. so i know it's not exactly easy to overcome suicidal thoughts even if you want to.
it's any person's right to decide if they want to die or not. But that doesn't mean they shouldn't engage with the reality of what they're doing.
didn't say it was impossible to find charity work fulfilling. He said that it would be wrong to put yourself through agony simply to minimise upset to your family/friends.
I disagree with the relatively modern idea that everybody's life is salvageable and everyone can be happy, though. It's utter horseshit.
pretty much the same and page really and just getting worked up over semantics
I just don't see it that suicide is always irrational, that's all... I suspect restlessboy views it the other way round
i think suicidal thoughts can come from a huge variety of places.
I have 'hands on' experience which has taught me this.
it can be a result of genuine physical mental illness (which you could call irrationality), sudden trauma, but also getting yourself caught in hyper-rational loops of depressing thinking.
suicide can be an entirely rationalised decision, but that doesn't mean it's always the best choice for the person involved.
other than a silly concept?
but people can only kill themselves once. and there are plenty of opportunities to salvage your life if you have courage and support.
not for everyone. just like everyone can't be a pro-footballer. some people have a top line of happiness which is the happiest they can ever physically be. if that's not enough for them then I guess suicide may genuinely be their only option.
but suicidal thoughts can arise from feeling like 'living for other people' isn't good enough. which is selfish in itself.
speaking entirely from my own personal experience and not seeking to generalise. my own friends with depression/suicidal thoughts are generally also the most selfish in the first place.
and, in fact, let's come clean. when I was thinking about suicide it was at a time in my life when I was being almost completely selfish and feeling that the world 'owed me' something for how shit i was feeling. As soon I started to try and start some reciprocity with the world I found I got a lot back. I think other people in my position could benefit from the same thing. I've had 3 very enjoyable extra years of life since deciding not to kill myself and it was partly thanks to friends giving me 'tough love' and pointing out how selfish i was being - not with my suicidal thoughts, but how I was behaving emotionally at the time.
that they had any control over. they attempted it and failed. they asked for my help, and i denied it for a host of reasons. and then the other way out, which they had no control over, happened anyway. i don't know that i exactly 'regret' not helping but a large part of me feels that there was little point to the life they lived out thereafter, and it would have been better for them not to go through it.
that's a pretty different scenario to, i guess, most of the situations we're talking about here. but the point is, there's innumerable things across the spectrum of experience that would lead someone to that kind of desperation, and they're not all just examples of 'depression in modern life' etc. people go through visible and invisible things we might know nothing about, and it's arrogant-bordering-on-obscene to judge without the full knowledge/understanding of that.
as I've never felt so low. Which is nice for me, I'm sure you'll agree.
I have no opinion about anyone else's suicide as I've never been them. I don't believe in any sort of collective subconscious stuff at all so how could I ever know what they felt like?
one of the key points from the book that I mentioned above, suicide is very closely linked with mental illness. It is not often done for any 'rational' reason (ie my boyfriend has left me, I've failed my exams, I'm being bullied).
In any person's life, they will have to deal with something terrible, but expected, such as the death of a parent. But even something dreadful and unexpected (say, the abduction and murder of a child)does not create a suicidal reaction. People in Nazi death camps did not commit suicide en masse, even though they apparently had no hope for survival. We deal with these disasters and carry on.
But because the impulse to suicide is not rational, there is almost nothing that can be done to prevent it, other than drug treatments to surpress the urge.
This is doubly troubling, because many persons who are prone to suicide are also extremely gifted and talented people, and surpressing them destroys the one thing that they are good at.
The final not so happy thought is that people who make any attempt at all, are around 75% likely to continue until they succeed.
think that some people are just unlucky? i would instinctively answer no to that but i have encountered people over the last couple of years who have made me think otherwise...
yes, there are times in the past at which I have felt so desperately hopeless that, had I not had a supportive family, I find it hard to believe I would still be here.
People who commit suicide are, pretty much by definition, mentally ill. Last time I was aware, the general consensus was that we should have sympathy and understanding for such people, and not hold them up to ridicule, contempt or vilification.
in sixth form took pills i remember.
A friend of a friend decided to top herself because after becoming completely deaf but with extreme tinnitus so life became unbearable.
i never understood the selfish/cowardice arguments and why people bring it into suicide.
It is a sovereign action, why is that cowardice? It's selfish? What act isn't then?
If I ever do I think I will buy a one way ticket to somewhere I have never been, drive out to the wilderness and OD to the sunset somewhere....maybe then my bones would be picked clean by vultures instead of inconveniencing paramedics with my selfish act.
who I'd lived with as a couple for a few years. She left behind a young son. Sure, I, and no doubt others, was seriously messed up with guilt, but I've never once thought of her as being selfish for it, just a hugely tragic event and waste of a life
Someone I knew had an accident similar to the one I had, fell from quite a height. He ended up in a wheelchair and developed a heroin habit. He got out of the wheelchair, eventually, moved away from Glasgow, kicked the habit, came back to Glasgow too soon, picked up the habit again and killed himself with a deliberate overdose after telling people this was his intention
I think calling suicides selfish is a selfish act, my suffering is greater than theirs now, meh
Suicide falls in a weird no-man's land between being thoroughly brave and thoroughly cowardly. But ultimately, I don't think it's right to blame someone if they do choose to go.
and by pure luck I managed to stop him.
Was coming home from my gf's house and spotted him out side Uxbridge tube standing by the loop in the bus station that the buses swing round pretty fast. He looked upset, so I went over to see what was wrong and he quietly said "Just go Rob". Then this massive bus came hurtling past and he went to jump in front of it. I shouted some kind of blasphemy like "JESUS CHRIST!" and grabbed him and pulled him back into the street.
He started freaking out, telling me I should've let him, why didn't I, then he punched a wall, god knows how many bones he broke. I sat him down, calmed him and called his bro. While we waited, he told me all about all the times he tried to kill himself, how his family considered him a waste because they didn't like his ex who he loved dearly and because he wanted to do comic books. It was his one true talent but no one took it seriously.
His bro and his mum turned up and straight off started talking to him like dirt - I full on lost it and had a massive argument with them in the street that if they treated him with more respect this wouldn't happen. They got insulted and left me - the last train was gone, and I had to walk home.
Anyway, he quit his crap job in Sainsburys and went to join the police which he loves, and I connected him with a friend who has helped him set up a web comic. He's actually truly happy now.
I'm not a great person - I've got so many faults, and I've treated a lot of people badly. But that is the one moment of my life where I think I can say unequivocally I helped make someone's life better.
This is also, I've just realised, the only time I've spoke about this since it happened.
Well, if a friend of mine killed themselves, and I called them selfish for leaving me this way, that would obviously be totally shite.
If, like in some of the examples here, they left a young child, or were found hanging by their parents, well, yes, that is really fucking selfish.
There's a difference between a general 'selfish for putting all of us through this' and that...imho
it was fucking awful and tore the family apart and ruined several people's lives.
I think it is horribly selfish, but I don't profess to understand because I have no idea what could be going through your mind when you do such a thing.
...one person stays alive in misery or kills themselves and ruins many lives?
But all this only applies if the suicidee is thinking rationally etc etc etc.
I think I'll just leave my opinions as "suicide is a bad thing" and start a new thread about football.
Suicide goes against every self-presavatory urge in a human and is often very difficult. I think it's brave.
Having a kid is actually the most selfish act.
should be given columns in the redtops to shoot their selfrightous mouths off about things they have no experience off and know nothing about
do you know that they know nothing about suicide and have no experience of it?
"I don't know anyone who's done it" or similar...
being the MOST selfish act. But I can see how it could be characterised as selfish.
people do it for themselves?
As only others suffer the repercussions.
However, As someone who spent time the wrong side of the railings on a bridge, seriously contemplating jumping, I know that the feelings of despair cause you to believe that the world could only be better after your demise and so is not generally done for selfish reasons.
but not especially well.
And someone who tried/threatened it, which made me try and kick their door down to save them.
any more and I'll start to feel like im to blame.
Serioulsy its not a good idea, people do it often because of lack of other ways out of something.......there are normally many alternatives