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Has anyone seen this?
castrated him with a machete and then they...they ate his genitals....WOOARGHH
I haven't listened to Sore Throat in ages
I'll post my own thoughts.
I believe that if you aren't prepared to watch an animal being killed and prepared then you shouldn't eat it.
let's kick abstraction out of football
Anyone who disagrees is a shit-eating cur.
you shouldn't be allowed to eat chips
ROCKED THE GAAANJ LOOOADS and got well battered and then called it a "Mc CAAAAAAANE factory"? then laughed loads 'cos it was well jokes?
dont think it would stop me eating meat to be honest
The objection towards something because of whatever causing it is gross doen't really hold up in my opinion.
The moral argument for it on the other hand...
I think it's hypocritical to say it's gross to kill animals but not to eat them, seeing as killing them is neceassary for you to eat them.
It's gross because of blood and guts and stuff not really the death and I don't believe blood and guts mean very much ethically.
I mean I think performing surgery is gross and that's not to say anyone who wants surgery or exploits the use of it is unethical.
but it's slightly different.
You're using the death of animal to give you pleasure. No-one NEEDS to eat animals (in this country) to survive. People need to have surgery to survive.
It's a choice (and a choice for the means of pleasure alone) and to say that you're willing to have the product of something that you don't agree with or like doesn't make sense.
that's the ethical argument.
Not wanting to watch something be degutted doesn't mean you disagree with it or find it morally wrong.
The ethical argument more runs (simplistically) along the lines of:
1. Animals have the same ability to feel pain as humans
2. You wouldn't kill a human
3. You shouldn't kill animals
I'm just arguing from hypocrisy.
It's like saying "I would never kill a Jew, but I don't really like Jews so it's okay if someone kills them." Wrong.
if you assume the problem with murder is the pain felt by the person you kill.
"I couldn't kill a Jew, I'm far too squeamish..."
or something like that.
I'm looking at your 3 step argument at the beginning of your post. There's an implicit assumption in the second point that it's because of the pain the human would feel, which I don't think is true at all.
I don't think EVERYONE should be vegetarian. Perhaps it seems that way in some of the previous posts.
I think it's correct for me to be vegetarian. It's up to the individual person. This is just the way i figure it.
If it's morally wrong it's wrong, it can't be justified.
Killing people for example is wrong and I don't think people should be able to make up their own minds on that, it shouldn't be allowed. Same goes for animals (if it is morally wrong).
I don't think it should be subjective just because it's more contentious, not everyone's right.
so you're going to decide what's objectively right and wrong?
each individual has to decide.
who stands in the way of their goals, it's okay?
LOL @ devil's advocate :D
Let soceity evolve until we're all smarter and then we'll all be eating atomically arranged perfect chemical foods and we'll realise what barbarians we once were. "Eating sentient beings? Oh gosh!"
But yeah I believe in objectivism, obviously the pragmatic problems are pretty immense but I think its a pretty sound idea.
The reason that I object to the vast industry and phenomena of meat industry is fairly well documented in past threads, however to recap.....its a conceit, a falseness.......hardly any of you are capable of being hunters, yet you live on a hunters diet, provided by an industrial/commercial system that ensures you will get your excess of meat even if most of the world goes poor in the process......the whole process of animal processing will be hidden form your eyes, many will not have naything to do with animals yet you will dine daily on them, because you are slaves to 'product' and lifestyle.
Oh! and it is not always wrong to kill another human.
I would be able to decide when it is right and when wrong, of course some cases will be more obvious.
Yes that is an arrogant thing for me to say, until I reflect upon whether others would make a better job of deciding than myself, until I see someone who seems to be able to make better decisions in contentious issues then I, then I will remain arrogant about this.......that is still arogant but at least its sincere.
saying there's something absolute about killing humans, i'm not making any point except I believe in objective laws, there can be something wrong with actions - the consequences.
If there's something wrong with the meat industry I think it's mass killing of animals. The fact it's a falseness is irrelevant. The capaitalist system, modern soceity relies on it. Hospitals, science, pretty much anything institutionalised is the same and I think it's justified if it works for people.
"I would never kill a Jew" kind of implies moral standards, and my point is the objection to seeing animals killed completely lacks them. It's not about the animal at all.
It's like saying "I would never kill a Jew because of the grossness, but I don't really like Jews so it's okay if someone kills them." Logically it follows.
not really annoy you?
We are rational beings. To be hypocritical completely undermines this, rendering us on the same level as animals. Perhaps we should kill and eat hypocritical people :D
You think the ends justify the means if you aren't involved with the killing; you think they don't if you are.
If you believe that you are the only morally significant person I don't see how this could be self-contradictory.
ends justifying the means?
Also you may want to check your ideas of ends and means because that way round would make it it okay to eat meat if you're not involved in the killing, which is almost completely opposite from what I was suggesting, but still not really anywhere close.
sorry for the confusion.
so it is as important as you deem that to be
Watching them being killed isn't a nice experience, but eating them is tasty.
It's the way us humans have always been, why change now?
but by that approach thats like you having s*x without a condom and then leaving when the woman concerned gets pregnant and has to bring up the child on her own with no help from you.......thats right have your cake and eat it, let others sweep up the crumbs and wipe your chin and ar*e
However, we aren't talking about a life-ruining unwanted pregnancy here we're talking about a burg*r.
The presenter is fairly compassionate and objective (unlike the fat chef and scary emotionless chicken/woman) and everything is set up as a fair debate.
I like this program, even though it makes me incredibly sad.
I don't believe that it's correct to kill another sentient being if you have a choice.
The fact that we're human gives us rationality and therefore choice about what we eat.
I believe that this makes it right for me to choose not to eat meat.
I don't have a beef with you (LOL)
You enjoy sausages far too much
As long as I live, I hope I never wank off with my friends outside before throwing my shit at your car and trying to break your windscreen wipers.
oh and not having a go or any ting!
I have no idea why I specified the "outside" bit of wanking off with your friends.
You would eat beef, right?
But if someone came up to you and offered you a rat burger, would you say "eww"
than the average beef cow, so i think i'd rather eat rat.
rats are mouldy squished and rotten?
in fact, i reckon the only reason i don't is because they're too small. not enough FLESH. mmmmmmmm
in Hyde Park was mouldy, squished and rotten.
i probably wouldn't have eaten that
if that's what you're implying.
Ok then, change rat burger for a cat burger.
do you value a cats life more/less than an animal you'd eat's?
im sure i would eat one
I cant be bothered getting into the whole "meat eating" thing. I just got to lvl 33. Im going to bed.
people are used to having a level of emotional attatchment to cats, but not to cows
whatever. See below.
As a kid
Was a skid
No-one knew me by name
trashed my own house party
COS NOBODY CAME!
its just some cat thats been killed.
emotional links are there, soceity has brought us up as cat lovers. If we are saying that only humans matter in the meat eating, social convention's going to play a big part in whether we eat that cat burger.
Your analogy's bad and you should feel bad.
its not just a social thing.
Although it is true you can form relationships with herbivores, you can forge much much closer links with cats, we are closer in many patterns of behaviour.......dont try to deny what is obvious with your senses, just because we cannot justify it exactly in words.
but still, it's about links.
And because you won
They stitched up your abdomen first
gave you a nice rambo knife
some choice cigarettes
and cut you loose in the ozarks
The question being not if, but when
You will kill for you next meal...
I just got to lvl 33 on world of warcraft. And now, bed.
I would be prepared to do that, for a nice piece of steak.
I can't be bothered anymore :)
and I worked so hard :(
I did ethics for four years and I'm tired now and don't have to do it...
come on - the gross means nothing!
is that I'm too tired and happy for vitriolic arguments right now.
Just because I said bullshit? I was only trying to catch your attention brah.
My argument holds up serious and I will write in the best way I cxan possibly express.
The person ain't hypocritical and their logic follows through because:
They see nothing wrong with killing animals they just find it disgusting.
If they don't have to see this disgust (all that matters is them) then the positivity of eating meat wins.
If they do have to kill meat then they find it horrible and refuse to do it then the negativity they would have to face for their meat would outweigh the succelence etc.
Their is no contradiction between eating rad meats and not wanting to kill animals for ethically meaningless reasons.
it is disgusting to kill animals. say.
therefore one who eats animals has authorised and demanded a disgusting act.
the commander of cool, correctly, has a problem with a setup that abstracts meat eaters from the disgusting acts that they themselves have authorised, thus giving them the impression that they haven't done so at all (as is frequently indicated by a retreat into 'it's just supply and demand' type 'arguments').
it's not necessarily an ethical argument. but it does hold water. and it could be argued that this abstraction diminishes the sense of causal responsibility, with other adverse impacts.
Abstraction from the disgusting things we force other humans to do for our own gain isn't hypocritical.
it just makes people think that they've got a right to anything they can buy.
I think it's fair if you can abstract yourself, people who won't mind killing animals will be the ones he killed them.
I think people who don't want to kill something but can gain from the fact others have different minds aren't in the wrong at all. They obviously don't have a "right" but that's not to say they shouldn't be allowed it.
and will become desensitised very easily. It's not the kind of job that squeamish people will go for is it?
makes it seem they deserve it or something. If by right you mean should be allowed then yeah people should be allowed to purchase something if they can accept how it happened.
because it's all packaged up and sanitised. hence CC would want people to be prepared to watch an animal be killed and cut up.
think we have reached an impasse maybe
Jeremy clarkson is an anecdote for some meat eaters being "pig-headed self-righteous/satisfied" in himself.
except then he'd become some sort of libertarian martyr
unsatisfied, un-righteous meat eater. But neither my lack of satisfaction nor my lack of righteousness is caused particularly by my diet. Jeremy Clarkson is irritatingly smug, but at times rather funny.
but i'm such a good person that i'd be willing to sacrifice the little bit of humour he brings to my day in order to have him shot
is a dangerous man, I read an article by him in the times (never again), he talked about Health and Safety inspectors and environmentalist in the same sentence, as if they were the same people.
Onto the thread. I care about animals dying, but thats all thats important. Animals (elephants excluded) kill each other, their children, their mothers, they don't care about death, they can feel pain and they want to exist but life and death mean nothing to them.
Humans give animals lives a value, so if you don't mind them dying then I don't think they do.
some don't. some humans do these things. but your wider argument is attractive
a matter of personal choice. I've been wavering back to occasionally eating meat since I went to America but I know I'll quit again. I know people who still say things like "if you don't eat meat you will die, human beings need meat to survive" and say that if one of their relatives was bringing a child up on a vegetarian diet they would feed it meat at every opportunity to save its life
What really worries me is the attitude of fisherman to studies showing that they're overfishing to extinction. They have never once addressed that problem, always answering with either that this is their livelyhood and they quite fancy a new Range Rover or that if they vacate certain areas to allow the stocks to get back to a non threatening level the Spanish or whoever will steal the fish which are their birthright. The idea of there being NO fish left and them killing of a species seems to either not get through or they choose to completely ignore it. I say catch, cook and eat these selfish and irresponsible fucktards
I thought that was only humans?
I was brought up on a pretty good diet from a young child. Infact, I am proberly alot healthier (or would be if I didn't drink so much because I know what my body is processing. There is no need to eat meat. The fact that factory farming is still legal in this country is totally unacceptable. These are live animals, and we should at least give them a good life whilst they are still alive if they are to be killed for our enjoyment.
I naturally cried my eyes out. But also, it was bullshit. Plus, the manner in which those cows were kept and killed is 100 times better than the majority of animals in intensive farms where most meat comes from.
sometimes i can take vegetarianism and suchlike as the ultimate form of human superiority - as in, we are SO superior to animals, we choose NOT to eat them, as it essentially is another thing which furthers us and makes us different from them.
what gives us the right to kill and eat animals, as they are entitled to the same rights as 'we' are, and so - are on an equal footing, as such.
but, choosing not to eat them actually is the most superior way of differentiating ourselves from them and so in turn actually makes them even MORE 'just animals'.
clever, aren't i.
we're definitely not equal to animals we're not even slightly on equal footing. That doesn't mean they should be treated as if they have no moral significance.
are we discussing general vegetarianism because it's cruel to kill animals?
or factory farming?
because, i find factory farming disgusting. but i still eat meat. and i do try if possible to attempt to not buy what i think is factory farmed.
and that isn't the vegetarian argument.
They're sentient so they consider them to have rights.
Of course we're much better than animals, no-ones suggesting otherwise.
we're much more intelligent.
the reason that it's 'good' is that it's prized by humans. so it's utterly self-referential. by human criteria, humans pwn... no shit
The reason it's good is because if it didn't exist nothing would be percieved, any existence would have no worth.
which is fine, because, as you imply, we can't really get anywhere without it. but it does mean we might want to be less complacent about ROOLING TEH UNIVERSE
I just watched some of the Cow one on the Homechoice Replay.
Jesus, that's grim.
good work, my friend.
I used to work on a farm.....I have seen others killing animals and killed them......when you kill an animal you have been, looking after and feel responsible for, you would naturally try to avoid let it suffering unecessarily
(of course traditional practices aften tell themselves comforting 'truths' that may not be so)
If you pay a load of blokes to just kill a bunch of animals they've never seen before as an industrialised process (and loads and loads of them) then these people will not be able tro allow themselvces to have an emotional response to killing the animal.....they wont be able to thing to themselves) 'Oh no that was a bad one.....sSHIT....sorry, that could have been quicker' they cant afford to reproach themselves for less than smooth killings or they'd be emotionally frazzled......its unatural to kill that many in one day, therefore slackness and bad habits and uncaring creeps in, to treat it as a game is a way to overcome the horror that you would otherwise experiance......I remember the first time in the egg farm I WORKED AT.....THE FIRST TIME MY MATE 'PLUCKED' A ROTTON HEAD OFF A ROTTON CHICKEN THINKING IT WAS AN EGG AND HIS HORROR......IMMEDIATELY ALIEVIATED BY THROWING THE HEAD AT ME......A WAY TOESCAPE FROM WHAT YOU ARE DOING IS TO 'PLAY' WIT HTHE BODIES..........THSI WILL RESULT IN CRUELTY TO FACTORY FARMED ANIMALS IN SOME CASES.
It is a bad thing that people are all removed from the process. It is bad for humans and itr is bad for animals.
ypeople have no appreciateion of animals lives.
This is why millionairre is wrong......yes the programm concentrates on viscera, something I did get inured to at one time but something that I am now suseptable too.....but that is part of the process.....the veryfact that the program concentrates on it is what gives the program a false power......but it is the previous hiding of theis part of the process that gives it its power......all this program is doing is revealing whta is hidden to something you enjoy everyday.....watch it and realise whay some other human has to do all day long if you prefer it that way.......remember these animals will be bbeing killed in the most humane and sanitised way, there will be no mis-aimed bolt guns in this program.
, but we were talking about it in tutor at lunch time, trying to put someone off their ham they were eating.
Nessa was like you do realise that pig you're eating could still be alive, they might have just cut some of it off to put in your sandwhich. :). Ahaha. (Y).
Some very good arguments. Well done I say.
I haven't seen it, but I will now, so thankyou. Although by the sounds of it, it doesn't adress the real problems with our meat industry, which is the cruel and hopeless lives that we make the animals lead before they are slaughtered, most often painfully. There is a good website around, I think it's called Meet Your Meat. But if it gets a bit of awareness out there, then fantastic.
There have been advertisements for red meat around in Australia for a long time, I'm not sure if you have the same thing over there, but previously the ads have been relatively harmless, like butchers bopping around to T-Rex, however recently they have taken to attacking vegetarians, making fun of them, and such, and recently had launched a new series of ads claiming that humans are supposed to eat meat. Which really really really bothers me because the general population are so (fucking) stupid enough to believe it. I hate people.